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Retaining women in the technology-based industries...

 
 
Tom Coates
09:56 / 09.08.02
Ok - here's a bit of a debate-starter - Trouble keeping women in the hi-tech industries. Basically the problem - if indeed it is a problem - is that there aren't many women coming into the technology industries - around a third in fact of applicants only - and that they aren't represented well at the top of the industry at all - not because they're not getting promoted, but because they're leaving.

Here's a quote from the article: "The IT industry is so fast. If a woman takes a year's maternity leave, it is likely to be almost a new company when she comes back," she said.

Now the arguments for keeping women are fairly clear, and relatively good I think - women represent 50% of the users of technology and so it's a good thing to make sure that they are represent 'the female perspective' (if there is such a thing) in the boardroom. And clearly, if there are institutional problems that discourage women from staying - from blatant sexism through to a lack of facilities - then clearly that's appalling.

Here's my problem though - in my experience, simply more men are interested in computers and computing and technology than women. I want to make clear that I'm not stating that there's any difference in ability, only in desire to participate in these forms of work. More to the point, there's something I think a little duplicitous about saying that women have a diferent enough perspective on life to warrant their opinions being particularly valuable in a company and simultaneously saying that the fact that they're less interested in coming into the industry in the first place is a problem.

So should we be fighting to encourage women to join industries that simply aren't as appealling to them? Are there any (high-prestige) industries that women are disproportionately represented in? (I would say that this could be argued in some of the communications industries like Public Relations and advertising - but I couldn't support this with anything other than anecdotal evidence.) Is it true that men and women have an equal take-up of technology products? And if there is a difference, does that reflect cultural bias (at the levels of individual desires), does it reflect individual desires (being manifested as a cultural bias), is it something 'innate' or is it something that we should be fighting to correct, either by training women and encouraging interest or by producing technological artifacts that are more designed for women?
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:08 / 09.08.02
I'm always suspicious of these sorts of divisions along gender lines. I think my default position is that a lack of women in a particular industry is a problem, simply because I don't believe in different levels of ability and I think that differing interests are mostly learned.

So perhaps women are being put off playing with boys toys? I don't know how one really changes that kind of attitude or how far one can really expect an industry to actively increase recruitment from a potentially uninterested segment of the population.

Having said that, I think that maternity laws need reform and companies need to offer better support for mothers. In the long run that will probably only happen if fathers are willing and are given the oppurtunity to be just as involved in child care as mothers.
 
 
angel
14:47 / 09.08.02
Tom - with regard to your question about PR.

I currently work in the UK's 4th biggest PR firm. In my little division, which deals with Consumer Health (products like E45, Clearasil, etc), Lifestyle (strangely enough represents food clients like Kellogg's) and Beauty (speaks for itself really), there are 33 people and only 5 are male. Two of these men work in the Department's Accounts unit. The male/female ratio varies from department to department depending on the type of industry represented; ie Professional and Financial Services Division (looks after clients such as Amex) has more men as does the Netcomms Division.

Strangely enough I was having this very same conversation with my housemate Julia who works as a freelance Film and TV editor. She constantly faces what feels like an uphill battle, to win the confidence of Producers and Directors simply because she is female. She is very technically minded and is valued by the main company she works for because of this affinity, they ask her to set up editing suites for particular editors as well as turning to her for immediate advice when something breaks down or doesn't work first time.

She thinks a lot of the discouragement of women from things technical starts at school, or at least did when she was there. She is in her early thirties now and back when she was at school the girls were all directed into home economics and the boys to the technical drawing. Even at things like Woodwork, the boys would get the attention, while the girls were just allowed to muddle along. (I'm wishing she was here to direct this arguement herself, hmm maybe later!)

I've probably rambled and am off the point, but I find it very interested that this meme is doing the rounds right now!
 
 
w1rebaby
15:20 / 09.08.02
I'll write more later, I'm going home now, but the industry I work in (pharmaceuticals) is noticeably female. Most are statisticians and biochemists. Female programmers / data managers are a minority but it's not that bad and overall, I'd say women were the majority.

As you get higher and it becomes less about science and more about boardroom politics, the balance goes more towards men, but then it's not really a technology-related job at that point, any more than investing in tech stocks is technology-related.
 
 
Grey Area
15:38 / 09.08.02
Just thought I'd add a bit of perspective to the "Women in PR/Advertising" thing: The university undergrad course on Communication, Advertising and Marketing (which includes PR despite the title) has consistently seen higher levels of women than men. I was one of five men in a year of 35 people. Last year's intake had 8 men in a year of 42. So in terms of the next generation of PR/Advertising workers, the trend seems to favour the females, at least over here.

As far as the technology industries are concerned, I think we're still dealing with an age-old attitude that these kinds of jobs, along with certain kinds of engineering, are areas that a woman can't be expected to succeed in due to an overwhelming male bias. Probably this bias started way back in the 50's and 60's when it was quite literally unheard of for women to enter these fields. The very term "boys toys", as used by Lurid, seems to be grounded in this.

Having said that, the engineering and computing courses at my university are seeing rising levels of women applicants. Admittedly there are still nowhere near enough females in the courses to be able to claim equal representation, but the social trend does seem to be reversing itself. It's just that the change is very very slow, as most changes involving attitudes within society seem to be. Anyone else able to comment on an apparent rise of female student numbers in technological areas?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:05 / 09.08.02
They could fucking start by not fucking replying to my fucking job applications with a fucking letter addressed to fucking "Dear Clive...".
 
 
Persephone
17:10 / 09.08.02
This was many years ago, but when I was an undergrad I was a research assistant for a sociology professor who was doing a book on the apparent rise of women in certain fields --PR was one of them, and the only other one I remember was baking. Anyway, the upshot of the book was that this was no progress at all... because something had happened in each of these fields that rendered them less attractive to men, or I should say less renumerative. So basically men were leaving the fields for better pay elsewhere, and women were taking up the less well-paying jobs that men didn't want anymore. E.g., baking was traditionally dominated by men because it was very physical labor intensive --lifting bags of flour, etc. But it was a serious occupation, with apprenticeships and so on. Then supermarkets started having their own bakeries, or bakery departments, with a lot of the baked goods done in central locations by machines, and now all that was needed was fairly unskilled minimum wage labor to staff the bakery counters, and that's where the women were coming in.

Well... to try to tie this back to the topic abstract, I think --as in the baking example-- that class is also a consideration. To say it the most roughly, women for whom a career in high tech is a possibility have open to them other possibilities that other women don't, such as not working.
 
 
w1rebaby
17:50 / 09.08.02
I can see that women, perceived as lower-status workers, might start working in larger numbers in an industry whose status has gone down. But, to go back to my field, the biotech industry, it's neither low-status or low-paid, particularly in comparison to other research positions. It's also just as technical. And I'm not making it up when I say that there's at least 50% women on the level where people actually do anything technical, and possibly more.

What this says to me is that it's a perception of specific fields rather than technology in general. Both potential students and existing employers in "man-tech" fields are considering them man's work, so less women get the training and they have a harder time when they do get there. I think biotech is (bizarrely) considered less "hard" than, say, engineering and so more suitable for women.

The fact that there are big, rich biotech companies which have good policies for maternity leave, flexible working hours etc could mean they have an easier time retaining female staff once they're there. Large companies have a much easier time doing this than small cutting-edge ones, from a simple resources POV. They're able to get a foothold without encountering so much prejudice and, once that's happened, they can organise their careers around their lives should they wish to. Several team leaders have taken maternity leave in my department with no significant effect on performance, because the resources exist to make up for their absence, and, more importantly, they came back. It's far more detrimental to a company to lose an experienced worker than to give them leave, but smaller companies often just don't have the option.
 
 
gravitybitch
02:52 / 10.08.02
Shotgun post to cover a bunch of stuff....

Biotech is growing fast enough to not be too fussy about who they hire - they need all available minds NOW. And the fact that it's biology, not as "hard" a science as engineering, makes it more female territory (us girls are, after all, so much more in touch with all things biological...). Biotech is also a relatively new industry: fewer ingrained prejudices; relatively new/progressive perspectives on things like child care and maternity leave and management styles;

Tom - I don't understand the duplicity. There is a definite difference between the male and the female viewpoint(see anythign by Brenda Laurel - I wish I could be more specific but my books by her went out on loan four or so years ago and I'll never see them again); the female viewpoint is only important if you are worried about alienating that large percentage of users who happen to be female. Think of it as a club - the club does things that some segment of the general populace is not interested in/finds either boring or appalling (there are some women who love "first person shoot-em-ups" and the gender stereotypes found in most such games, but I don't know any of them). This is not a problem as long as the purview of the club is just the club.... but you can't jsut scale this model up to computers in the real world, because not all the computer users are "members of the club." If you start out with the boys' club mentality, then say that womens' viewpoints are neccesary and important but don't change the club mentality, why are you surprised that women leave the field??

I suspect that if I'd been born male, I'd have been an engineer, and maybe not a politically correct one. But, I was born female and engineering was always definitely my dad's territory, definitely boy-toys that I encroached on (just a little) only because I was a tomboy. So now, I'm all grown up as a research biologist, with a technical aptitude that occasionally translates as "butch" and a chunk of attitude on my shoulder because the back of my mind thinks maybe I might have been more "successful" as a male engineer... grumpf!

(sorry about any threadrot this may cause...)
 
 
w1rebaby
20:53 / 10.08.02
I think that to say biotech is a relatively new industry so has more enlightened workplace environments is to let more long-running tech industries off the hook. Pharmaceuticals have been a big industry for decades (I know women who've been working for twenty years) and there's no reason why their management styles should be any different to anyone else. The big corporations are just that, big, old-school corporations, no more nimble or perceptive than others (something which I have plenty of painful experience of) - they just have the capital to implement flex-working etc, and actually [i]do[/i] it.

I don't know whether this is attributable to there being a "critical mass" of female workers, or whether that attitude is just better expressed in the sector. After all, flexible working is good for [i]everyone[/i], it's something that management gurus have been pushing forever, with much better justification than most of the bullshit they encourage.
 
 
gravitybitch
02:10 / 11.08.02
I didn't intend to make excuses for established corporations... and the phrase "old school" pretty much says it all. A lot of those old school companies seem to think that the practices that have been sucessful for however-umpty decades will continue to work just fine.
 
 
Irony of Ironies
17:50 / 11.08.02
In my wife's year at polytechnic (remember them?), there were about 150 computer science students. Three were women, including her.
But that's an aside. How does IT's record of recruiting women compare to other engineering-oriented technology sectors, such as aero-engineering or automotive engineering? I suspect it's not that different.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:38 / 12.08.02
A friend of a friend has talked alot about her experiences working as a progarmmer in london. She's French and says that she doesn't really want to stay here as she doesn't find the working environments particularly motivating. She attributes this firstly to the fact that this is the first time she's been the only woman in a department of forty or fifty people (aside from the administrator :rollseyes ) and also to what she sees as a vast difference in the personality types of the people she works with here.

She thinks this is due to the difference education systems, which mean that a graduate programmer is here likely to be someone who's been funnelled into pure science/electronics since the age of 14, whereas as part of her comp.sci. degree she was required to take three minors (in her case art history, philosophy and English), this after compeleting a baccalaureat which covered six subjects, again with a spread of disciplines. She's found that people here are, in their work and interests, much 'specialist' in mode, whereas she feels her personality and approach to her work stem from a broader base.

She says that she can see that the specialist mind has very definite advantages at times, but that the broader based approach also has it's good points, and that bluntly, it requires you to develop a personality and interests! She finds that the programmers she's worked with in France have much wider variety of interests; there isnt' this 'geek' culture nearly to such a great extent, being 'good with computers' is just that, and not a big cultural statement about which subgroups and interests you're going to have.
 
 
w1rebaby
17:14 / 12.08.02
She finds that the programmers she's worked with in France have much wider variety of interests; there isnt' this 'geek' culture nearly to such a great extent, being 'good with computers' is just that, and not a big cultural statement about which subgroups and interests you're going to have.

Interesting. Is "two cultures" something that exists in the UK (and maybe the States) but less so in France (and maybe Europe)? Given the mobility of programmers, demonstrated by your friend and the number of people I know who have worked across Europe, it seems a little surprising at first... but when you consider the rather insignificant degree of cultural mixing that takes place between locals and contractors who don't speak the language and are only there for six months, perhaps not.

It's something which "geek culture" does play up to, though that's not universal by any means (and I think the cyberpunk movement had a lot to do with that.)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:30 / 18.08.02
(Caveat: This post is all terribly subjective and refers largely to my own experiences and perspective, and those of my peers. Feel free to fold, spindle or mutilate at will. Given the topic, I've concentrated on the problems faced by females who move into traditionally "male" subjects, but I'd like to make it clear that I recognize the equivalent difficulties faced by boys and men trying to move into "female" roles. Oh, and this is all about the way things are in limeyville, okay? YMMV.)

I'm going to take the matter of why women leave these industries as read, since it has been addressed by previous posters (and they've done a better job than I would have anyway). Instead, I'm going to concentrate on looking at some of the reasons why women fail to enter the industries in the first place.

1: Who wants to study this crap anyway?

Science and technology, in general, suffer from huge image problems. Engineers all wear greasy overalls, computer scientists are all comic-reading, overgrown teenagers, bio-technologists all want to turn us into huge luminous tomatosheep: not sexy. This is due in part to the woeful state of science and technology reporting (or mis-reporting), which in turn is due to a deep and unnecessary schism between arts'n'humanites folk and science geeks. (But that's a whole 'nother rant.)


2: Boy's toys, boy's games.

Girls are not encouraged by society to take up science subjects. Gender stereotypes start in the maternity ward, and then they get worse. A girl may face strong, even violent opposition from her family. Even if her parents are scrupulously nonsexist, others are unlikely to be so even-handed. Many adults, even complete strangers, will go out of their way to criticize a child or young person who they deem to be straying outside their gender role. The girl may also face ostracism and/or bullying from her peers. (She's playing boy's games! Eurrghh!)

It's also worth pointing out that while girls are doing better and better at A-level, this is not reflected at university entry.


3: Wot-- no teachers?

The school system is not oriented towards science-based subjects. There is a lack of people to teach these subjects, or the mathematics that underpins them. This means that fewer youngsters will go on to a tech-oriented career. Even if a child shows an interest or aptitude for hard science, it's all too likely that the careers officer won't know what the hell to do with them.


4: Use it or lose it.

Fewer people going into the sciences at school means that fewer people will go into these subjects at degree level. Fewer people going into a subject means less money for the uni. Many universities have either downsized their technology departments, or closed them all together (excluding the ubiquitous Computer Science, which seems to have permeated every subject).


5: Your oscilloscope or your life.

A science & technology based course, particularly at degree level, is tough. It is stressful in the extreme, and requires an enormous amount of investment on the part of the student. This is not to say that other subjects require less work, rather that science & technology courses have their own very specific set of problems. They tend to rely very heavily on either lab-based practical work requiring expensive, high-maintenance equipment, or on computer-based work requiring expensive software. In either case, highly skilled technical staff are needed as well as lecturers.

These courses are expensive for the educational establishment to run and are not always lucrative in the short term. The budget for vital equipment is often inadequate. Staffing levels are generally well below desirable levels, even skeletal: more and more key lecturing staff now work on a part-time basis, technical staff tend to be overworked and undermotivated. Consequently, students have to compete for resources-- a piece of equipment, say, or the attention of a technician. This may sometimes put some females at a disadvantage: for instance, they may not have the forcefullness or confidence required to negotiate a fair share of avaliable resources, or they may be oversensitive to accusations of staff favouritism. Staff may tend to allocate resources more favourably to the gender that is "supposed" to be studying a given subject, and this seems particularly true of science and technology.

There may also be a tendency for staff and fellow students to regard a female student's success as less of a serious matter than her male collegues'. One often encounters a certain sense that a female student is less a priority than a curiosity.


6: Just one of the boys?

A female studying such a subject will almost certainly be in the minority, possibly even a minority of one. This can lead to feelings of isolation.


7: Who wants to study this crap anyway? (Part 2)

Your fellow feminists (and if you are a female pursuing a science and technology degree then you'd bloody better be a feminist; your second choice is probably "that chick who flunked out in the first year") might not be quite as supportive as you have previously supposed. While feminists will fight tooth and nail for the theoretical right of a woman to study, say, engineering, some feminists appear to view women who actually do move into a hard science with anything from polite bewilderment to outright hostility.

Sadly, the old stereotypes of male = thinking/science/left brain, female = feeling/intuition/right brain have been internalized by many. These ideas have become so ingrained that in the minds of a lot of people that they are accepted as axiomatic.

Now, if we've decided for the sake of argument that male = thinking/science/left brain, female = feeling/intuition/right brain, then it follows that feminist thought must oppose itself to any structure where empiricism and the scientific method are paramount, and must insist on structures based on the supposedly female traits of intuition and feeling. If you were any kind of a real feminist, the argument seems to go, you'd be doing women's lit. or gender studies, right? Something more right-brain, more intuitive. Not that hard-science stuff. That's so left-brain, so rigid, so... male. (She's playing boy's games! Eurrghh!)

However, I would put it to you that these perceived divisions are not based on fact. They are based on outmoded cultural assumptions propped up with the worst and laziest kind of pop-psychology. Sure, there are certain gender-related tendencies and aptitudes which are hard-wired into our brains, but that's all they are-- tendancies. Men and women are far more similar than they are different.


Well, that's how I see things anyway. I do hope any young women reading this won't be too horribly discouraged; however, if you're serious about a high-tech career, my dear, then I strongly suggest you learn German. I hear Munich's quite nice.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:20 / 28.08.02
Wow. very interesting. will be back with questions when i've digested this a bit more...
 
 
Francine I
16:11 / 28.08.02
According to my experience, Mordant is quite astute in her observations. I would add by saying that run of the mill sexism is rampant in technology based industry. Therefore, women who don't want to deal with sexism "on the battlefield" so to speak will naturally tend towards more feminist-friendly arenas. In particular, I worked with exactly three women (out of probably forty personnel) in my last job. All of them were at the bottom of the technical food chain, regardless of the fact that they all showed incredible aptitude for their jobs. In one case out of the three, an extraordinarily negative attitude contributed to the situation -- though it was eventually not so much a problem. In another case, an amazingly positive attitude paired with great job performance did nothing to assist promotion, while in the third case a very pragmatic approach won only criticism from her male peers.

No one liked the woman with the negative attitude, but she was damn good at her job. Everyone liked the one with the great attitude -- and she was damn good at her job -- and she took a positive leadership role in the office environment. Regardless, my recommendation for her promotion fell by the wayside when the time came to fill the position directly above her. Instead, a man lacking direct experience within the department was selected. He did a fine a job -- but I'm confident her performance in the same position would've been at the least optimistic equal to his. It should be noted that his resume showed greater direct experience with the subject matter -- but that her on-the-job performance demonstrated equal qualification.

The middle-of-the-road of the three was constantly on the rocks with her boss due to some invisible cause. She always showed ten minutes early, left ten minutes late, and was the most pleasant of the group to work with.

Finally, while the one with the negative attitude could be at times be extraordinarily rude, there was no threat to her job and she was in fact eventually promoted.

So, I suppose, the moral of this story is, you've got to be willing to maintain a somewhat cold demeanor to say the best in order to succeed as a woman in certain technology based industries. Plenty of people simply don't want to adopt such a personae in the name of success. It's definately not a friendly environment for women, no matter their approach or skill.
 
  
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