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Lord of The Rings

 
 
Ellis says:
18:55 / 08.08.02
I couldn't find the old thread.

Bought it on DVD a few days ago.

Didn't like it. Slow, dull, no characterisation (apart from Bilbo, who rocked). And twee, can I say twee? It felt twee and tried to be overly sentimental which didn't work because I didn't feel any closeness towards any of the characters. Everything felt detached and epic without a reason to be.
I bet the special effects were brilliant in the cinema though, and I do find myself looking forward to the next one...
 
 
Trijhaos
19:17 / 08.08.02
There really wasn't much characterization in the books either.

I haven't picked it up yet. I'm waiting until November when they release the edition with all the nifty stuff, like extra footage and the like.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:28 / 08.08.02
Damn, you beat me to it.

I was going to start a thread called "The Fellowship of the Ring: Revisited," specifically to compare and contrast experiences of watching the film in the cinema and watching it at home—because this is a film that a lot of people are going to rent or buy, even though they've already seen it on the big screen, and the experiences will be very different. At least mine was. Were. Whatever.

Part of that is scale, part of it is context—I rarely go out to the movies, so just being in the theatre has the feel of an event—and part of it is my changed relationship to the text: before seeing the movie the first time, I hadn't read the books in twenty years—but since then I've re-read some key sections and listened several times to the 13-hour BBC radio adaptation.

Was much more conscious this time of the changes they'd made—which ones worked, and which didn't.

Surprised to hear you say the pace was slow, though—if anything I found it too breakneck-fast, so that certain bits that could have benfited from a more reflective tone were lost in the rush (the entire Lothlorien sequence, especially, and the temptation of Galadriel in particular: she's announcing that she has "passed the test" almost before we realize she's being tested.)

In re: characterization—I came away more impressed than ever with the handling of Boromir. As I think I mentioned in the earlier thread, (which I think got lost in a reboot), Boromir didn't impress me much when I first read the books: he seemed to exist mainly as an object-lesson about how the thirst for power corrupts. But looking at him now, I find him the most well-rounded character in the story.

The reason? Boromir, almost unique among the characters, exists in a web of relationships. While Gandalf and Aragorn are loners and Men of Destiny, Boromir is the son whose father is losing his grip, the elder brother expectred to follow his father, a patriot who loves his people: he is comrade and friend to a man whose coming as King will essentially put him out of a job. His bitterness and contradictions began long before he encopuntered the Ring. He's the most fully-realized—and ultimately, most tragic—of all the characters.

I was impressed, on second viewing, with the subtle ways in which the film builds sympathy for him while opposing his character to Aragorn's: extroverted, empathetic and nurturing where Aragorn is noble and distant. As they leave Rivendell, he teaches the hobbits swordsmanship while Aragorn is off by himself, brooding over his Awful Fate. In the escape from Moria, he scoops the hobbits up in his arms protectively: when Gandalf is assumed dead, he embraces his comrades, trying to comfort them, while Aragorn is... off by himself, brooding. And when Aragorn coolly insists they move on, it's Boromir who pleads that the others be allowed for a little time to grieve.

And when he steps off the edge, it's heartbreaking. Again. I saw the craft behind the art this time, the technique behind the impression—but when the first arrow hit Boromir, I exploded into tears regardless.
 
 
The Natural Way
19:33 / 08.08.02
One of the things you have to bear in mind though, Ellis, is that LOTR is a massive book, with ponderous amounts of historical stuff added; and it's bloody hard to convert to film. The book took a gruesome slashing before Jackson's final script was hammered out - loads of stuff was lost and yet, y'know what....still massive. But it couldn't afford not to be, without pulling the plug on all the major action/themes. So, I suppose - due its length, slightly (in these modern times) alienating subject matter, episodic narrative structure and GRAND OLD VOICE OF FANTASY! tone - some people might've thought it dragged... Jackson had a shit load to contend w/ without characterisation thrown into the mix, and....

I think he did a pretty good job.

On repeated veiwing, the Fellowship's personalities do start to emerge and, somehow, the volume goes up on the whole, elfy ambience of the piece...and you start to dig it.

Basically, I just love the way the film has such a distinct *look* and feel. There's something very idiosyncratic and Peter Jackson-y about it - a quality that's almost impossible to find in most modern blockbusters.

And actually, I have to admit (sadgeek that I am), that it DID move me, and in places exhilirated me. Another thing the Hollywood spectacle is, generally, grotesquely crap at.

Which, if you think about it, is a crime.

Definitely should have seen it at the cinema.

(A friend told me when she saw it they had an interval - which is perfect)
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
12:00 / 09.08.02
Everything that Mr. John Fear Esq. just said about Boromir is True. And therefore Beautiful. He's not just The Daddy. He's MY Daddy.
 
 
Loomis
13:35 / 14.08.02
Having seen it on video (don't have a dvd player) after being disappointed at the flicks, I feel pretty much how I thought I would. My problems with the scripting are still there, but I enjoyed it better in general because I knew what was coming, and the places with the dodgy special effects were less noticeable on the small screen.

Rivendell, Lorien, still shite with bells. Cave troll, likewise. Uruk-hai were all slimy and scary at Saruman's pad, but once they were outside they weren't slimy anymore and just looked too ... human. Looked like a bunch of New Zealanders in tights and face paint, which, er, is what they were.

Having said that, I found it generally more intimate. The Shire section was even warmer and homier, and the actors came across better, though I don't know how much Boromir's success is due to Jackson and how much is simply the acting of the lovely Sean Bean. Frodo's staring eyes were not as annoying as in the cinema, and the other hobbits were more chummy and enjoyable than before.

So much more pleasant this time around, but still awaiting the dvd with extra footage, and a place to watch it ...
 
 
The Natural Way
14:28 / 14.08.02
But why were the Cave Troll, Rivendell and Lorien "shit"?

I get the feeling that any reply you give's gonna result in me slapping my head and shouting "But it's a special effect/make up, it can't be perfect!"

Visually I really think this film's something to celebrate. Go and look at other spectacle films PLEASE.... And then moan.
 
 
Loomis
14:50 / 14.08.02
I already told you my problems with Rivendell and Lorien in one of my earlier posts in the other thread. The script doesn't express the crucial points that make these scenes important in the book.

I get the feeling that any reply you give's gonna result in me slapping my head and shouting "But it's a special effect/make up, it can't be perfect!"

In my opinion, that's just a copout. If I recorded a song using a guitar pedal that sounded really dodgy, would you accept my excuse that "it can't be perfect"? Or is it better to only use the effects that you can use properly, and leave out the ones that you can't? There are so many great special effects in this film and in others, so why do filmakers insist on also using ones that just aren't developed enough yet?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:07 / 14.08.02
Why buy the DVD now? Why not wait until the special edition thats coming out for Christmas?
 
 
uncle retrospective
16:27 / 14.08.02
The Cave Troll is "shit" because, not only is the Effect badly done but the design of the thing was rubbish. "We've got this huge Cave Troll, ok, let's make it look like a huge plastercene baby!" I'm with Flux on this one the film crapness is all due to Tolken. Death camps for Hobbits!
 
 
videodrome
17:01 / 14.08.02
I loved the Cave Troll. Thought the facial expressions were fantastic and the quality of its skin greasy and semi-translucent, like the thing had actually spent its entire life underground. I liked the modelling and the movement, with even the CGI choreography including the models of other characters working well. Can think of no other similar action sequences that are better, and the Troll experience was certainly more satisfying for me than the Balrog bit, which was a letdown.
 
 
The Natural Way
18:40 / 14.08.02
Yeah, it was a really nice scene. It looks like a living, bellowing, moss-slimy rock (as it should) and its confused, bullish movements really convey its barely sentient headstate. Really animal.

Looks and feels fucking solid to me (or as solid as any CGI effect).

If you really want to moan about badly realised/animated trolls, go watch Harry Potter. Now that's shit CGI.

Agree about the Balrog, but still enjoyed him.
 
 
houdini
19:27 / 14.08.02
Personal problems:

#5) Too rushed.
This can't be helped, really, given the size of the thing. As Andrew Rilstone has pointed out, Jackman chose to make a movie and not a film and the result is the "cliffhanger" feel to this production.

#4) Too much CGI.
Personally, I just can't take it seriously. They were doing okay until the Scene With A Million Orks which burst my suspension of disbelief like a soap bubble receiving a belly flop from Rosanne Barr. Having said that, I thought the Balrog was pretty well done.

#3) The wizards' duel.
This stank to high heaven. You know how hard you laugh at the Obi-Wan Spin in the fight scene in Star Wars? Well the audience in the Odeon laughed ten times harder during this scene. Truly painful.

#2) Let's hunt some ork.
No, let's not.

#1) The only real complaint:Saruman. Saruman Saruman Saruman. The change to his motivation to make him an out-and-out bad guy is the only thing that I think can't be justified. Sure, there's an argument that says you NEVER see Sauron in any of the books and therefore he's a crap villain; modern audiences need someone up front to hate. (Good thing we've got plenty of footage of Osama from back in the days when he was One Of Ours....) But the simplification of Saruman's character and the untimely revelations about the Palantir really mark a major revision to the story and diminish him greatly. Poor Christopher Lee. Between this and Count Dooku he's been given some lame villains to play. And that's really a shame.
 
 
videodrome
20:32 / 14.08.02
If you really want to moan about badly realised/animated trolls, go watch Harry Potter. Now that's shit CGI.

I knew there was another cinematic troll recently, but couldn't put my finger on it. Didn't see Potter but the clips of their troll made it appear decidedly inferior to Jackson's.
 
 
The Natural Way
07:26 / 15.08.02
"Let's hunt some Orc!"

Yes let's!

And LOTR really isn't a massive CGI fest. Models, sets and real locations were used whenever possible.

It's interesting; I kinda wish Jackson hadn't revealed (in the DVD Two Towers preview) that he built the city of Rohan or that he mocked up a massive Helms Deep - I'd be interested to see how many people thought that stuff was "shit" CGI.
 
 
Loomis
08:04 / 15.08.02
That's not a bad idea Runce. I wonder how well I'd do, as I seem to be the anti-CGI poster boy for the minute. My main problem is when they try and do too much movement with it. It's good for improving on backdrops, or beefing up the background of fight scenes. I imagine most of that "prologue" fight scene at the beginning was CGI, and that looked pretty good, because your focus is spread. Probably if the cave troll was part of a larger scene then I wouldn't have focused on it as much.

And yeah, I do see your point about other blockbusters, Runce and Videodrome, so I won't go on about it, but I do think a lot of viewers jumped on the bandwagon of criticizing Lucas while unstintingly praising Jackson for some of the same things.

Houdini- yeah the Saruman thing was one of the worst (and totally uneccesary) plot travesties. Didn't even want to start on that one. However, the fight scene there looked better on the small screen for me.

Lada - Buy? Buy? What is this word called "buy"? It's "rent", grasshopper. I am indeed waiting for the main event, precccious. Oh, that reminds me, gollum looked pretty fake too!! (Sorry - couldn't help throwing that in!)
 
 
The Natural Way
11:06 / 15.08.02
Thing is, Loomis: if you think Gollum looks fake then I can't really get into it w/ you about special effects. That peering little head in Moria looks very realistic to me (and I suspect his hands ARE real), as does the footage from the preview/Two Towers trailer and as for that beautifully framed shot of Gollum in his cave...mmm.... This isn't shit CGI, Sonny Jim! The only conclusion I can reach is that you just don't like CGI very much.
 
 
videodrome
14:49 / 15.08.02
The "looks fake" thing is a bugbear that's plagued SFX since the beginning. It all looks fake if you don't buy into it. I've never thought any effects I saw in a film were 'real', but I either buy them or don't because of the other qualities given to what the effects are trying to represent. A lot of people had similar complaints with Spider Man. Did the webslinging look fake? Sure. Of course it's not real. Doesn't mean it wasn't perfect for the film and the character. I never thought for half a second that Ray Harryhausen's skeletons were anything but tiny models. Never changed the fact that they ROCKED. Same goes for the Muppets. Gollum is just a CGI muppet, but I think the real problem here is the paradigm change - we all grew up seeing muppets, puppets and models and long ago learned to accept them as analogues for reality. The shift to CGI was sudden, with a lot of poor effects hiding in major films. That's made it tough for a lot of people who now write off CGI the minute it hits the screen. I'm not trying to speak for or make assumptions about Loomis here (wouldn't do that, old boy) but I know this is the case for a lot of people. Would assume the same thing was going on when Harryhausen was starting and even when Lon Chaney started the makeup thing. I, too, lament the shift away from models and muppets but have to recognize good, contextually appropriate CGI when I see it.
 
 
Sebastian
17:49 / 15.08.02
As I was coming back from lunch I almost bought the divx version of LOTR, now that I am reading this I really don't know if I'll buy it. I used to regret I didn't see the movie at least twice in cinema, but as much as I was enthusiastic before, during and after, I wasn't much moved as I expected I would be.

Anyway, I do want to see again the scene with the Balrog, a scene that has fascinated me since I read it back ten years ago. I was impressed by the massive concealment of the Balrog in the shadows, suggesting something really powerful instead of showing it, and I didn't had a chance for a second to think it was CGI, and Mc Kellen's Gandalf's voice, "Run, you fools!", was just a perfect translation of a literary moment to film.

I am actually thankful to the director chap for providing such cinematic moments of detailed attention to most of the relevant pivotal sequences of the novel (the waters taking the Nazgul, Boromir's death, and almost all of them), no matter the plot twists and liberties taken on characterisation. In this aspect of transmigrating written word sequence to movie, I did experienced the film as definitely quite ground-breaking.

The troll I think was also great CGI (just see dummy-CGI Spiderman and then we talk), no chance to stop a second to look at its glitches, which I still don't know if it had or not.

I fear for Gollum, of course, but we'll see.
 
 
NotBlue
20:17 / 15.08.02
OK, only read afew reply's but

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do not buy htis DVD, in november, there will be this plus 30 mins of footage inserted released as the "special edition DVD",

Specifically the "Gift giving " by Cate Blanchette" and more rucks.

So Hire this one from you're shop/global, but save yer penny's for the next one!
 
 
NotBlue
20:25 / 15.08.02
Having read a few more reply's,

Mr Fear, Boromir: So agree, Sean Bean had more emotional content in that film than anyone ("AND SEAN BEAN AS!!"), and the girls behind me when I saw it in the cinema burssting into tears with every arrow moved me, the most human, and the most superhuman of them all, his protection of merry and pippin, redeemed him ffrom "purely human" to the man most wish they could be!!!!!!!!!
 
 
Loomis
09:39 / 16.08.02
Videodrome - I think the real problem here is the paradigm change - we all grew up seeing muppets, puppets and models and long ago learned to accept them as analogues for reality. The shift to CGI was sudden, with a lot of poor effects hiding in major films. That's made it tough for a lot of people who now write off CGI the minute it hits the screen. I'm not trying to speak for or make assumptions about Loomis here (wouldn't do that, old boy) but I know this is the case for a lot of people.

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt 'drome. All I can say is that I will endeavour to one day be worthy of it!

I have no doubt that what you say applies partly to me, but I am willing to take stuff on board and "suspend disbelief", however only to a certain point. If something doesn't blend well enough with the real actors then it should be left out till it can. To look at Lucas for a moment, Jar Jar Binks was quite an achievement in some ways, and it's not too much of a stretch to accept a CGI character like that in some scenes, but when you see him walking down the street next to Liam Neeson, the contrast is too much and it jars me (no pun intended) back to reality. What I would like to see is CGI being used primarily to augment reality, rather than replace it, at least until the technology is there. For example, the webslinging in Spiderman (which I've not seen) had to be CGI, because how else could you do it? But gollum doesn't have to be CGI, because an actor could easily do it, especially augmented with a bit of technology, as the hobbits were. So what's the aim here? Making a good movie using technology where it helps you, or simply experimenting with technology?

And to prove that I'm not anti-CGI on principle, I thought that the watcher in the water outside Moria was brilliant.
 
 
Loomis
09:56 / 16.08.02
I seem to have gotten a bit sidetracked with the CGI standoff, but my main problem is really only the scripting. It is a very sad thing that we are so used to being fisted by directors in screen translations, that the film community applauds someone unreservedly for not doing so, and I don't think it is out of line for me to lament that this should be so. And I find myself in an Orwellian world where it's forbidden to even think negatively about Jackson, just because he didn't go 100% Hollywood.

Well I'm thankful that he didn't do that, but still. Jackson is being credited for adding depth supposedly not in the book, when the examples of crucial misreadings (rather than excisions due to time constraints) of the Council, Lothlorien and the character of Saruman reveal an unnecesary simplification of motives and character. Sure, Jackson did a reasonable job, and I'll yield the visual point to the film-heads out there, but writing is another thing entirely, and I have been constantly shocked by the fact that everyone seems to brush aside very large obvious facts that demonstrate a shafting of the central points of the story.

Viewers list complaint after complaint over other movies, but Jackson is somehow untouchable, and I can't see why he is above receiving a few pointers in script writing.
 
  
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