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'Lyrics in English? You colonized idiot!'

 
 
pacha perplexa
17:37 / 08.08.02
Many brazilian musicians are criticized for writing lyrics in English instead of Portuguese, being accused of having a colonized mind and bowing to the north-american culture. They argue that Portuguese is a language rich enough to express anything, and so should be used as much as possible.

I wanna know what do my english-speaking friends think of this? Are the critics right? Or is it a pointless exageration? Is the argument of preserving our culture in all aspects, especially regarding music, valid? I'm sure Jade has lots to say about this.

Wee fact paragraph: mainstream brazilian music (usually crap) is mainly in Portuguese, with a few exceptions. Indie/underground bands sing in english, and are the ones taken to task no matter if their music is good or bad. Lyrics in other languages are uncommon but for Shakira's Spanish (oh dear).
 
 
Fist Fun
17:56 / 08.08.02
I was always puzzled why so many non-English speaking bands sing in English. Always kind of impressed at the language skills though.

I think some British based bands are guilty of a sort of cultural subjugation as well. Think Roddy Womble singing in faux-Michael Stipe style then finally developing the courage to sing with a more natural accent.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:45 / 08.08.02
I'm of several minds on this.

English lyrics obviously make the music more marketable internationally. That's the theory, anyway.

Myself, I listen to quite a bit of non-Anglo pop, and dread the moment when an artist decides they need "crossover appeal." In the Anglophone musical environment I inhabit, "crossover" marks the moment that an artist loses what made hir unique.

When a singer established in one language makes the move to English, something is always lost. Maybe it's the "exoticism" of hearing some Johnny Foreigner twittering away in his own palaver—one moment it's like birdsong, enjoyable as pure sound, and the next I'm pulled out of my sonic trance because I have to listen to the words.

Or maybe it's just that these folks simply don't sing as well in English as in their native tongues. People use their voices differently to sing than they do to speak—they're literally using a different part of the brain: there have been people with severe brain injury who have lost the ability to speak, but can still sing old songs and learn new ones. Learning to speak English and learning to sing it are two different things. It can be learned, but it's a whole other skill set.

On the other hand, there is something wonderfully intriguing and fresh about English lyrics by non-native-English speakers: they have a better chance of avoiding the usual English clichés because they're not familiar with them, or of choosing words for their sound value, rather than their literal meaning—generally to put words together in interesting ways. Or to be more exact, in ways that I, as a native speaker of English, find interesting.

Examples off the top of my head: Eggstone, from Sweden, make shimmery Beatlesque pop music with daft, off-kilter words. "Water" is a gorgeous ballad with the chorus:

Water can be found in waterfalls
Water can be found in tennis balls
Water can be found in orchids
Water can be found in you...
In your lips.


John Cale, whose first language was Welsh, rejoices in the sounds of English with the zeal of a convert:

From mistletoe and candle green
To Hallowe'en we go
Ten murdered oranges bled on board ship
Lent comedy to shame
The cattle graze bolt uprightly
Seducing down the door
From saddle sores and meeting-place
We have no place to go...


The door is opened for strange and beautiful imagery.

And let's face it, 90% of pop lyrics are shit-dull, no matter what language they're in...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
19:24 / 08.08.02
Q: If you're writing lyrics in Portuguese when you're Brazilian, aren't you also being subjugated by the legacy of colonialism?

Just a thought.
 
 
deja_vroom
20:17 / 08.08.02
Mmm. Where do I start? Ok, first let me subscribe to the consensus that Brazilian music is one of the most inspired and rich, and one of the most successfull in making the transition and adaptation of the seminal roots of folklore music to an urban environment. In the process, one of its representative styles, Bossa Nova, has become so refined and elegant that it was called "Brazilian Jazz" in the 60's.
In football, when talking about the brazilian team, brazilians often use the expression "the weight of the shirt", meaning the mix of myth, history and sucess attached to brazilian soccer istory, and the implicated responsability of the player sporting a brazilian
football shirt.
The same thing occurs when music is concerned. Only that (some would say, similarly to what happened with the level of brazilian football) brazilian music has changed, and while I'm not the best person to judge if it has gotten better or worse, one thing I can tell without fear of being wrong: It's by no means as powerful and impactant as it was in the past.
The new representatives of brazilian music pale in comparison with their predecessors. There are exceptions, of course, but we don't have a coalesced scene as once we had. Caught in the middle of
the digital evolution, the young artists, most of them guided by the voices of 1922* don't really know what to do, or where to go to find the new Brazilian Music. Now this approach to art, in my opinion, nearly almost wiped out of the music scene any other attempts at different methods of creating music. During the
nineties, if you weren't mixing up stuff, funk with maracatu, rock with samba etc, you wouldn't be taken seriously. I had nothing against it at the beginning, but once it became a comfortable market commodity and everyboy started doing it, I got sick of it. Haunted by
a golden past and facing the challenge of the new electronic music, brazilian music got so anemic that today people like Max de Castro (who was, not to my surprise, in a TIME cover, called "the most interesting/innovator brazilian artist of the decade") make songs that are a little bit of second-hand electronic blips with a third-rate Bossa Nova beat - of course, the foreigns love it, it was all the rage in Europe a coupe of years ago (or perhaps it still is, with Marky and Patife and all, I really can't say). They don't have to commit to it, and a fad is always a fad, even if in our case this fad is lasting since the 60's.
I consider myself enlightened enough to recognize some political patterns, in which concerns the role of Brazil in our globalised world(TM). I did my homework and those who know me know that I'm not "trying to be American or British". Please...
Speaking for myself, if I choose to have lyrics in English, it's because, frankly, they're easier to write. Portuguese words are longer, and they have sharp phonemes, whereas English words, being shorter and "rounder", fit better in the faster tempo, 4-beat structure of most pop/rock songs. Japanese samba is OK, because their word have a similitude in structure and sound with Portuguese words. By the same criteria, I don't think that samba in English would work very well. Actually, let me correct that. A talented person can make it work. I'm just saying that it's something really difficult to achieve. I know a few examples of rock songs in Portuguese that make it. When it works, it's beautiful, I tell you. When it doesn't work, it's worse than hearing fingernails scratching in the blackboard.

Another reason to have lyrics in English, for me, is that I want theat Indian kid, that Fijian kid etc to understand what I'm singing about. Where are my best chances, in the English language or in Portuguese?

Another reason is, sometimes I just think that art is art, it doesn't matter if it's a bunch of French doing zulu paintings, or Afghanistans playing rockabilly - if the artist has a conscience of his role in the scenario, and of what he is doing and why, then all criticism concerning questions of nationalism should be disregarded. But this is a veery complicated topic that I don't think I can elaborate now. But this topic is really interesting and I'll add more to it tomorrow, probably.


------
* - The year of the Modernist Week, which proclaimed that, among other things, Brazil's only role in the international artistic scenario would be as a reprocessor, never creating anything original but instead receiving the influences from outside and then mixing them up with the national artistic heritage. Like if influences weren't an integral part of the artistic process, to begin with. No doubt it was a good thing for the people with no talent, who wouldn't ever need to present any original work. It was around then that Brazil started being noticed in the artistic field. To this day, it's with suspicion that some brazilians (myself included) see the interest that some intellectuals show towards Brazil, because we see, by the topics they choose to study, and by the people they usually consider as examples of the brazilian art, that they cannot stand the idea of studying brazilian culture with the same respect and humbleness that one studies, say, the works of Goethe.
That is to say that when someone approaches European culture, it's with hopes of learning with it. That is not often the case when Europe or America approach us, but that's another thing.
 
 
pacha perplexa
20:25 / 08.08.02
Don't think so. We don't feel the same way about Portugal and the US because Portugal is a dead potence, it doesn't have much influence in the world as a nation. We usually feel "dominated" by something that has power to subjugate, which is the US's case.
Besides, the language has evolved/changed so much that nowadays one could say that there is a "brazilian language", a mix of portuguese (latin) and afro-dialects plus tupi-guarani (native indian) plus influences from those who immigrated to Brazil (italians, arabs, germans, etc, etc). Add to this the french cultural influence over the portuguese, slangs, regional vocabulary and what you get...
So when I say "portuguese", I'm only using the official name.

Buk, no kidding! I could never imagine brits trying to sound like americans. Funny.

Jack, you've made some very interesting points.

English lyrics obviously make the music more marketable internationally.

Indeed it does. But what intrigues me is that the indie bands make more use of english, and many don't even dream about becoming famous (ok, they do. But not seriously.), let alone getting to the international market. Oi, Jade, where are you to explain that?

Or maybe it's just that these folks simply don't sing as well in English as in their native tongues. People use their voices differently to sing than they do to speak—they're literally using a different part of the brain

A matter of being confortable with the language? If so, doesn't it denote a huge influence of english at the point that speaking, writing, singing in it feels almost as normal as using the non-english mother-language?
I'm not saying it's bad, only.. well, makes me feel uneasy.

they have a better chance of avoiding the usual English clichés because they're not familiar with them, or of choosing words for their sound value, rather than their literal meaning

"Living and learning", as they say back where I come from. I'd never examined the difference between english-english lyrics and non-english-english lyrics (by non english speakers. Ugh, this is getting confusing) - thanks for pointing out.

generally to put words together in interesting ways.

Examples off the top of my head: Eggstone, from Sweden, make shimmery Beatlesque pop music with daft, off-kilter words. "Water" is a gorgeous ballad with the chorus:

Water can be found in waterfalls
Water can be found in tennis balls
Water can be found in orchids
Water can be found in you...
In your lips.


This is the part I liked most about your post.
 
 
pacha perplexa
20:26 / 08.08.02
Ops, sorry, Jade! The "don't think so" was for Todd, hehe.
 
 
pacha perplexa
20:34 / 08.08.02
(Thanks, moderator)
Still processing your post, J. I teased ya, didn't I?
 
 
NotBlue
21:41 / 08.08.02
"G.Harrison" >>>> Why Do You Sing In An Ameican Accent __________
'Cos we listen to their records'
 
 
deja_vroom
17:04 / 09.08.02
Hey, Pacha, fancy some noodles?

On why a foreign band should have lyrics in English:
First: Does the artist feel *really* comfortable writing stuff in English (not only *knowing* proper English and grammar, you gotta feel so at ease with English that you know you can afford taking some risks and twisting some stuff)? If yes, then why not?
For instance, there are no spelling or grammar errors in this Sepultura (the most successful brazilian band abroad) song. However, the way the phrases are structured, the scope of what's being told etc, indicate that the writer was being really careful, restraining his pen inside the limits of his familiarity with the language (or perhaps this isn't a good example because Max Cavalera is just a caveman wearing sportswear):

Slaves Of Pain
All Of Us Are Victims
Confined By Enigmas
Without Solution
Your Frozen Thoughts Don't Let You Evolve
A Prisoner Of Your Own Trap
Slaves Of An Infinite Pain
What Will Be The Limit?
What Will Be The End?
Life Ends
Feeling Death
Slaves Of Pain
Life Ends
Feeling Death
Slaves Of Pain
Seeking New Paths
Don't Be Tied To Your Mistakes
Run Away From This
Uncured Sickness
Open Your Eyes
Don't Lose Your Steps
Liberty Is A Dream
And It Is Also Real
To Die To Run Away
To Forget What I've Been
To Erase My Past
To Kill My Guilt
Life Ends
Feeling Death
Slaves Of Pain

This "lyric" (are you there, Billy Corgan?) *could* be used as an argument agains foreign bands singing in English, but then again you have Christina Aguilera, who sings sutff like this:

Hey there boy did ya happen to know
Wherever you go I'll follow
Ooh babe you're like a cool breeze
On a summer day
When you're near me
I don't know what to do
I feel like a fool
Like a school girl
True blue girl
Who wants to know
Can you come out and play

You make me feel the way
A woman is supposed to feel
Let me show you
Show you that my love's for real

She sings in Spanish, too, btw...

What I'm trying to say is perhaps a good way to judge if the efforts of an artist are valid is to know more about that artist: Hir motivations, background, hir views on politics and so on, and then check hir lyrics and see if s/he has something interesting to say.

And finally: One of the lyrics below is from a band which is not anglophone in its origins. Which is it?

LIONESS
it is for me the eventual truth
of that look of the lioness to her man across the Nile
it is that look of the lioness to her man across the Nile
wanna feel my heart break if it must break in your jaws
want you to lick my blood off your paws
you can't get her fast enough
I will swim to you
whether you save you me
whether you savage me
want my last look to be the moon in your eyes
want my heart to break if it must break in your jaws
want you to lick my blood off your paws
it is for me the eventual truth
it is that look of the lioness to her man across the Nile
and you can't get here fast enough
I will swim to you

WAVE TO ME
I´ve seen myself from a point too far from me
Waved to myself even though I knew I could not see
I was like a boat carrying my eyes to the other shore
After these words, I’m gonna rest, don’t ask for nothing more...

more...

So I floated
I was like a whisper in a thunderstorm

Below, gas-bloated
Was sinking my body, my vessel, my uniform...

uniform...

It’s getting dark, I feel like I’m one with the Universe
I’ll burn my last spark, so I’ll gather strength to sing my last verse...

verse...
 
 
William Sack
13:14 / 26.01.03
Sorry to dredge this thread up when I have little or nothing to say on the issues it raises, but the thread was the only thing thrown up when I searched "Brazil" and "Brazilian." I just wanted to know whether any Brazilian 'Lithers (or anyone else) knew anything about a band called Tribalistas. I just heard them the other day and have been playing their stuff non-stop. There is virtually nothing on the net in English about them though, and I speak no Portuguese.
 
 
deja_vroom
15:00 / 27.01.03
Hi, H.I.R.

Os Tribalistas are a brazilian group formed by three solo artists of different musical backgrounds: Marisa Monte, female singer of great critical and commercial success; Arnaldo Antunes, once frontman of also critically acclaimed rock group "Os Titãs", now on solo career as singer/composer, and also concretist poet of dubious merits; and Carlinhos Brown, an annoying twat.

They joined their powers and released this effort which is doing considerably well in the charts. Their lyrics are above-average, if only a little bit twee at times. But they have a pretty good melodic vein going on there. Try listening to "Carnavália", it's a really good song. Also, read about the individual artists at All Music Guide. I'd link if I could, but their URLs don't show up...

Let me know if you want to know more.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:25 / 27.01.03
Carlinhos Brown? He did an album for Axiom records under the band name "Bahia Black." Let me check All Music...

Christ, he's had over 200 of his songs recorded?? And played percussion on a zillion records across a variety of genres... Busy little guy, ain't he?
 
 
deja_vroom
15:35 / 27.01.03
He can't say 2 coherent phrases.Moreon himlater...
 
 
William Sack
17:15 / 27.01.03
Jade, thanks for that. I'll look at the link in a few days when I finish clearing up some shit that has hit my work fan. Is Antunes the guy that sounds like a Brazilian Leonard Cohen? Voice so deep it sounds like a drone? And yes, Carnivalia is great, though the song I'm playing to death at the moment is the poppy "Ja se namorar." Twee lyrics? Hell, they could just be reciting a Sao Paulo telephone directory for all I know. Again, obrigada (my only Portuguese word.)
 
 
William Sack
20:04 / 28.01.03
Interesting stuff, and thanks again for the help Jade. They seem to have quite a pedigree.
 
  
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