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A Question About John Lennon

The resistable rise of Reidcourchie

22:08 / 02.08.02

I've been spending less and less time on Barbelith recentl, largely due to time constraints but this is a question I can't imagine asking anywhere else. I think I know the rational and practical answer to this question and although there is a place for the postmodern cynicism/irony so oten used to great effect on Barbelith I would also ask people to approach this question with imagination and dare I say it romanticism. I am especially interested in hearing what the heavy hitters in the Magick forum have to say on this matter. Still the question is:-

Did John Lennon have to die in order for the 80's to happen?
Discuss.

Old brown-eye is back

22:51 / 02.08.02

Because he was a totem for some kind of revolutionary 60s ideal, you mean? Absolutely. My belief has always been that Mark Chapman was, in fact, a robot created to help clear the way for New Romanticism, white funk and Prefab Sprout. The only thing I can't figure out is why Bob Dylan, Frank Zappa, Lou Reed, James Brown and that bloke out of Love were left alive.

22:59 / 02.08.02

Dunno about the 80's, but I do know that John Lennon had to die for the myth of John Lennon to happen. Imagine, if you will, a Lennon-penned Frog Chorus and shudder.

Old brown-eye is back

01:38 / 03.08.02

What's got three legs and lives on a farm?

Paul McCartney and Heather Mills

03:13 / 03.08.02

"The only thing I can't figure out is why Bob Dylan, Frank Zappa, Lou Reed, James Brown and that bloke out of Love were left alive."

Right. There were plenty of 60s counterculture figures still around in the 80s, but they weren't so relevant anymore. At least, not to the kids, and the kids always power the new trends in popular music. So I'd say, short answer: "No."

What would have happened is that the Lennon myth wouldn't have become larger than life. He would've gotten old, just like the other three, instead of dying in a phase of his life which would leave his image preserved in a state of eternal edginess. Who knows, he might have had his own answer to Paul's "Spies Like Us," leaving us all asking, "This guy was a fucking BEATLE?"

13:16 / 03.08.02

Zappa kicked the '80s ass. Hell, he could have been president, if not for the cancer. (with Billy Connolly as VP... hell, I can dream.)

Old brown-eye is back

13:52 / 03.08.02

Note to self: make sarcasm more obvious next time. If Lennon had remained alive into the 80s, chances are he would have become even more mean spirited than he was already.

17:51 / 03.08.02

"If Lennon had remained alive into the 80s, chances are he would have become even more mean spirited than he was already."

A friend of mine who is a big Lennon fan told me that at concerts they would bring various disabled kids to sit up front, and Lennon would limp and stumble around the stage making funny faces in mockery of them. As my friend said, "Yeah, Mr. Peace and Love wasn't all peace and love, sometimes he was pretty nasty." I'd never heard that story before.

I guess living with Yoko could do that to a guy.

(Mandatory Yoko slam. Sorry, it's in the bylaws somewhere.)

20:37 / 03.08.02

My favourite Lennon story is this one about the early Beatles days-

Imagine. A band of teenage males is sharing a room, therefore no privacy for actual sex, and instead, lots of wanking- to feverish imaginations, in those comparitively porn-light days. So, Lennon waits until he is sure he's the only one not furtively masturbating to an inner vision of, say, Marylin Monroe, then speaks:

'Winston Churchill.'

You get my drift.

Old brown-eye is back

23:42 / 03.08.02

Two things put me off John Lennon. The first was reading Albert Goldman's nasty biography of him, the other was the Beatles worship that began when Oasis first came along. Saying that, having just re-listened to the Plastic Ono Band album (because of this very thread!), you have to say he could write a fucking cracker when he wanted to.

00:59 / 04.08.02

the Beatles worship that began when Oasis first came along

WTF?

Old brown-eye is back

02:36 / 04.08.02

Yeah. Obviously people always loved The Beatles, but only with the cripplingly nostalgic (and song writer-centred) Britpop thang did they become an object of genuine reverence more generally. Trace back any major British pop musical movement pre '94 and there's hardly any reference to them at all. Why? Because Glam, New Romanticism, Dance and Punk tended to embrace modernity and were as much about the fans as the bands. You know just how many awfully serious books were written on Lennon and his crew in the 1990s? A fecking lot.

Regrettable Juvenilia

22:18 / 04.08.02

Lennon pretty much paved the way for all the *bad* things in the 80s by recording Double Fantasy. That's your blueprint for Phil Collins right there... Lennon was an irrelevant dinosaur long before his death, and anyway, as others have stated, his myth is a wildly distortionate version of his original (and considerable) talents and qualities (and flaws).

Yoko's pretty cool though.

The resistable rise of Reidcourchie

16:59 / 06.08.02

I think it's quite easy to pull someone down in retrospect and perhaps most of the posters here aren't of the generation that Lennon was important to (myself included). I do wonder if any public figure can stand to much scrutiny. Strangely things have reversed themselves with Yoko Ono. She used to get a lot of stick but now people's opinions are softening to her.

That he was an unpleasant character I have no doubt, though I do think some of it is probably slander. However I'm not sure who he was privatll was all that important to the amount of people he seemed to have effected. I watched on VH1 recently that his death was considered to be the most shocking moment in rock history. Now VH1 probably isn't the best gauge of public opinion but even 20 years later it still made an impression.

We assign mythical attributes to celebrity, who they actually are doesn't matter, what they appear to be is. I wonder if dying helped alleviate his status, for example look at the Shamanic attributes assigned both Hendrix and Morrison after their deaths and obviously Grant Morrison assigned Lennon godhead staus briefly in the Invisibles.

I have heard commentators describe the Manson Murders as being the death knell for the hippy era. Is this hyperbole? Did they contribute?

So I suppose a better question about Lennon would be was his death part of a signifier, or maybe even part of a catalyst of a paradigm change?

(Incidently I'm not saying the paradigm change was good or bad, I'm not making judgement calls, this question is purely hypothetical and asked for curiosities sake. I'm more intrested in icons in popular culteure than defending an obviously very flawed individual. However I do not what you mean about the Oasis/Beatles connections, the whole Britpop scene left me with the feeling that the North West of England had a lot to answer for.)

20:42 / 06.08.02

Flyboy: "Lennon pretty much paved the way for all the *bad* things in the 80s by recording Double Fantasy. That's your blueprint for Phil Collins right there..."

I think you're wrong in this case, Flyboy. I mean, it's fine if you don't like Double Fantasy, but those were well-crafted songs and very real feelings for a lot of adults. There's nothing sacharine sweet or sentimental or cheesey (as per Phil Collins). It's an honest and introspective and vulnerable album (such as one associates with Carole King and James Taylor). They're not songs aimed at teenagers or even twenty-somethings, but that doesn't make them crap.

Almost all artists grow up eventually, and if they're lucky their art evolves with them. John Lennon couldn't remain the angry young man forever. He was middle-aged and in love with his family. We'll be lucky if we ever hear songs even half that good about becoming middle-aged ever again.

20:44 / 06.08.02

Oh, and in answer to the original question, I think the 80s happening was all because of Reagan and Thatcher. Art, music, and culture just responded accordingly.

00:59 / 07.08.02

"I have heard commentators describe the Manson Murders as being the death knell for the hippy era. Is this hyperbole? Did they contribute?"

Surely they contributed. 'Hippie-messiah turns out to be murderous nutbar.' There's a headline that'll sour everyone on the whole scene. One might argue Altamont had a lot to do with it as well, the evil "Anti-Woodstock." But this is stuff for another thread.

I think an interesting result of John's untimely passing was the way that (here in the States, anyway) it seemed that a lot of people wanted Julian Lennon to replace his dad. It went so far that I recall rumors of a Beatles reunion at Live Aid with Julian standing in for John.

I honestly don't remember Julian's music well enough to comment on it, (I seem to remeber an easy listening ballad and some lame pop tune) but it just seems quite odd looking back on it now. "Hey, John Lennon's dead, but GUESS WHO WE FOUND TO TAKE HIS PLACE?"

Take his place?

14:36 / 07.08.02

Well, the joy of the Beatles Reunion starring Julian was simply that he could sound like his father when he wanted to, not that he would replace him in anything but an occasional concert context. it would probably have been odd for Julian though, as his relation with his father was rather estranged (sadly Lennon largely ignored his pre-yoko children).

Professor Silly

16:20 / 07.08.02

Back to the original question--it does seem like the assassination of Lennon might be taken as a magickal act that ushered in the spirit of the 80's.

It seems like the spirit of the 60's centered around revolution from the statis quo--drug/spiritual exploration, an embracing of other cultures' idea(l)s, and even a strong questioning of U.S. policy.
Along came the 70's, and the momentum was stalled by drug (abuse), poverty, and a cynical selfishness among the population.

With Double Fantasy it seems like Lennon was saying "okay, we had a rough decade...but I think we can make the 80's a much better time." He had cleaned up his act, and was ready to try and make a difference again.

So in order to create a "me decade" he had to be snuffed out, just like so many revolutionaries before (King, Kennedy(s)). It wouldn't surprise me if Bush the Elder had a hand in the deal, really.

Even if it did launch him to an almost demigod level, it also silenced him forever. We are left only with his work...his songs (some beautiful, a lot of crap).

As for Yoko...listening to her work on Double Fantasy it seems to me that she launched the awful mess that epitomizes music from that decade. In that sense, she proved move influential to the music of the 80's then John did. Going back further, her "vocal stylings" in the 70's seem influential to the avant jazz scene in 80's NYC, through Zorn, to Faith No More and into all the "Nu-Metal" of today.

04:58 / 09.08.02

"Vocal stylings?" "Yoko?" "Nu-metal?" You mean "lack of the ability to actually sing?"

Professor Silly

16:40 / 09.08.02

egg-zackly

the ability to scream really really high...like one's being castrated on national tv....

17:11 / 09.08.02

The difference between a Phil Collins ballad and a ballad on "Double Fantasy" is that the songs on Double Fantasy are far more honest than most Phil Collins songs. I'm at a loss for a Phil love ballad... but a piece of crap like "S-sudio" (or whatever the fuck it's called) simply isn't in the same league as say, "Beautiful Boy." The lyrics to Beautiful Boy may be a bit cloying, but when you listen to that song, you can tell John means them.

Personally, I love Double Fantasy and think it's a brilliant, beautiful album. It does take a far amount of guts to lay your soul on the page, as I think John did with that album, and I don't think that's something that Mr. Collins has ever done.

04:04 / 10.08.02

"like one's being castrated on national tv...."

Ouch.

Regrettable Juvenilia

17:01 / 10.08.02

Maybe before we go any further we need to establish what's being meant by "the 80s", ie "the bad things in the 80s". What was bad about music (generally, or in specific scenes, or just in the mainstream?) during the 80s that didn't persist or worsen in the 90s and since? I think there are many things, but not many that the continued presence of a washed-up old hypocrite hippy could have averted...

The resistable rise of Reidcourchie

12:33 / 11.08.02

Fair point. I suppose that I was thinking of the bad things about the 80's. There seemed to be a strong pardigm change that probably only really exists in retrospect. But the so called "Me" generation. I do think that the right was on the rise in the 80's. And despite his failings as an individual lennon was a relativly positive symbol of peace, love et al. I'm not suggesting that lennon could have become somesort of anti-yuppie super hero just that his death added to the malaise that allowed people to fully embrace this "Me" generation. You'll have to excuse me I'm having problems properly expressing what I'm trying to say.

What I'm not dissing is 80's pop culture, there was a lot of good stuff there (lot of shit as well but there always is)and it was the time I grew up in and I feel a lot of fondness of the culture for that time. That said I do miss the idea of Rock Giants like Sabbath and Led Zepplin that we don't seem to have a version of these days that seem to have died out in the 80's but that's just a personal taste.