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Déjà vu

 
 
Panda
00:16 / 28.07.02
I don't know why, but I was struck with an idea a few days ago that I thought was spot on - but I can't for the life of me think why.

What if: The second moment; the 'repeated' moment that makes you go "whooaahh - Déjà vu", is actually the first moment that that occurrence occurs - and the first time was the second time?

If you get me.

Dreams gave me the idea, of course - thinking you've dreamt about something that occurs in real life. Any ideas? I'm getting major time travel vibes here.
 
 
Ganesh
01:52 / 28.07.02
I think the 'second' time it happens is the only time. Deja vu (apologies - have never worked out how to do accents) seems to originate from the brain's temporal lobes: stimulating this area artificially appears to induce specific moments of deja vu. The phenomenon is also commonly experienced as part of the 'aura' in temporal lobe epilepsy, and in those who damaged one or both temporal lobes through injury.

Bit of an overly 'biological' explanation there...
 
 
SMS
03:08 / 28.07.02
To answer the "what if," (if I understand you) we'd be talking about information travelling backwards through time. This is a very difficult thing around which to wrap your head. What would we be able to observe when something like this occured? My guess is that it looks exactly like a deterministic system. If we look at the current state of the planets moving about the sun, then we can predict their future state fairly well. If human beings were better mathematicians, and if we had better information concerning all nearby celestial objects, then this would be a completely determined planetary system. Essentially, the information of where these planets will be is appearing to us *now.*

In general, scientists prefer to clean up the universe so that we don't have to figure out when info travels backwards and when it travels forwards through time. You can define the cause of "event y" in a deterministic system as

that event, or set of events, causally related to "event y" and preceding it in time.

and, similarly, the effect of "event y."

that event, or set of events, causally related to "event y" and following it in time.

Technically, we would then need to define a causal relation without using the words cause and effect.

The point is that the principle of causality (an effect may never precede its cause) is no more than an assignment of definitions in a determined system. It has no empirical implications at all.

If we're talking about probabilistic systems, then it is more complicated, but we would probably have to ask whether the record of the past contains more information than the past's prediction of the present.
 
 
alas
05:51 / 30.07.02
hey didn't we already have this conversation?


[apology. someone had to say it, though, no?]
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
13:45 / 30.07.02
And you did dear Oscar, you did...
 
 
Turk
04:39 / 04.08.02
"What if: The second moment; the 'repeated' moment that makes you go "whooaahh - Déjà vu", is actually the first moment that that occurrence occurs - and the first time was the second time?"

Silly, it is the first and only occurrence because there is only one event.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
10:51 / 04.08.02
Oh, well thanks all to hell for clearing that up...
 
 
—| x |—
06:40 / 05.08.02
I don’t think I like this overly biological explanation Ganesh. I am sceptical of explanations of events which seek to reduce them to functions of the brain or certain areas of the brain being stimulated. First, it seems to me that anything we experience in the {internal, external} world must necessarily have a corresponding biochemical event in the brain. Second, I do not think we can say which precedes the other: we do not know if events in the brain occur before the experiences that we have in the world or after. I tend to think that it is neither and that biochemical actions in the brain match up exactly with the experiences we have of the world. So, the temporal lobes may indeed be involved in the experience of déjà vu, but this doesn’t really tell us what déjà vu is. The stimulation of the temporal lobes which invoke a feeling of déjà vu in a laboratory might merely mean that it was predetermined that the person’s lobes were to be stimulated at such and such a time in order for this same person’s brain’s biochemistry to correspond to a déjà vu experience. The person still feels that they’ve experienced the moment before, it so happens that the stimulation is part of the experience. Does this make sense, any sense?

See, I think that déjà vu has to do more with a nonlinear experience of time, at least nonlinear in so far as we appear to experience time on a point by point basis. It is not so much information traveling backward in time, but more our awareness expanding to include a stretch of time. As we traverse spacetime we trace out paths that are known as “spacetime worms.” You can think of this as a tunnel of your body moving through space over time. For instance, as you get up out of your chair and walk out of the room that your are in, there is a spacetime worm that corresponds to that whole series of spacetime points. Now, what if déjà vu is such that our awareness expands beyond a linear sense of time and allows itself to experience a set of spacetime points all at once. This might give rise to the feeling of having “been there before” simply because the way that you would normally consciously track time has been distorted in such a way that you become aware of a section of a possible spacetime worm. Well, not really a possible worm, but the actual worm that will unfold for you over the next x seconds. So what if this is how it works, then information doesn’t have to travel back in time, but is more akin to the “determined system” that SMatthew puts forth. And this deterministic system also includes the events that occur within the frontal lobes of our brains. Does this make any sense, any sense at all?

{0, 1, B}
 
 
Shortfatdyke
08:49 / 05.08.02
i've just had a massive feeling of deja vu - something simple, in writing a pm to a fellow barbelither. the closest i can get to describing the feeling is.... like a part of you being in motion and then whizzing back into place. that's how it always is to me, and i've had this happen to me since i was very young. i don't see it as being my life played over and over, although when the feeling is stronger i have an awful sense of playing a part, going through the motions of doing stuff for the first time (that may well be because i don't want to believe that's the case), perhaps it's a matter of little psychic flashes , meaning it does only happen once, but you've seen it before anyway - perhaps by jumping forwards and then back (which would explain the feeling of motion). my 'theory' on this really is as woolly as it sounds, though.... i would love to know what makes this happen.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
07:45 / 11.08.02
I think understand what you're getting at, modthree, but I just find it easier to accept the idea that déjà vu is the sensation you get when your brain confuses "making a memory" with "retrieving a memory".

Actually, what you're saying about one's conscious awareness being kind of "spread out" reminds me of a theory I had about short-term premonitions. By that, I mean any sort of unusual behavior (like deciding to slow down upon approaching a green light to make sure no one is coming...) which prevents an accident (...before someone tears through the intersection at 90mph in front of you). It feels as though you were just saved by your guardian angel or precognitive ability, when what I think actually happens is, you received information on the danger through the usual senses, but the only reason you remember altering your behavior is because an accident was avoided. Your brain marks the "premonition" as meaningful instead of erasing it. Since your brain has just messed about with your short-term memory, you remember a spooky feeling happening as you changed your behavior.
 
 
—| x |—
17:07 / 17.08.02
Well Perfect Tommy, it seems to me that making a memory and retrieving a memory become the same thing with regards to what I am saying (which might lend to your understanding of what I was trying to say). It seems to me that under the theory I put forth the individual experiencing déjà vu would be both making and retrieving a memory at the same time. He or she would first be creating a memory along the lines of our normal point by point experience of time. The time span of the déjà vu experience would be systematically filed in the mind like any other memory; however, the brain would also be retrieving the memory if the expanded time-sense (the awareness of the events in time over the series of points that make up the timeline of the déjà vu experience) has stored the memory of the experience already. I’ll try to draw a picture:

Let us suppose that the déjà vu experience begins here:
.
the it proceeds over a series of these time points to look like a line (the arrow indicating the normal “forward” flow of time)
.....-->
So the memory of this experience is made as we move from the beginning of the experience to the end of the experience. Now, let us suppose the theory that I’ve put forth. Thus, the awareness of the individual at that first point already includes the whole “memory” of the upcoming series; that is, the individual has the events corresponding to the line of dots above already stored as a memory. Therefore, the déjà vu experience isn’t the brain confusing the creation of a memory for the retrieving of a memory, the brain is actually doing both activities at once!

I find SFD’s description of déjà vu as “…like a part of you being in motion and then whizzing back into place” very suiting for what I’ve put forth: part of our awareness is in “motion” as it stretches out to include the whole of the series of time points which compose the experience, but then, because such an experience of time is quite foreign to our common ways of experiencing, a function of the mind (call it the “psychic censor,” if you will) snaps our awareness back into place, i.e., back to the initial moment where the experience begins.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:13 / 17.08.02
Heidegger and Grof, in their own sexy Teutonic little ways, could both add to that theory...
 
 
6opow
07:05 / 18.08.02
How so Mr. Haus? Do enlighten the people as to thoughts you are thinking!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:18 / 18.08.02
I would, but this is a silly thread that was started by a Knodgesuit and has subsequently essentially become an opportunity for people to remind us, once again, that they have read and enjoyed the Invisibles.

Maybe when I have more time.
 
 
Ganesh
16:42 / 18.08.02
I don't really like your inadequately biological explanation, Modthree; I'm always suspicious of people who attempt to to explain neurochemical events in terms of "spacetime worms". I think you'll find the temporal lobe theory was proved 100% correct beyond any reasonable doubt by nano-drone Bleekner3212 back in Perpendicular Tuesday, 2057 squared.
 
 
Baz Auckland
22:40 / 24.11.02
I've just had two different deja vu experiences in the last few hours and was a bit shaken, so I thought I would check it out here. The second one was two-in-one and really felt like I was remembering something I had dreamt before

(reading about Venice, typing, deja vu hits, got up to tell my sister, deja vu hits again.)

It seemed like I was back in the dream for a brief second. It felt really neat.
 
 
Seth
00:18 / 25.11.02
Sorry, Barry. You're going down. Between the deja vu and Venice, it's only a matter of time before the *little girl in the red raincoat* comes for you.

She's sitting in between you... and she's laughing!

See you in hell.
 
 
Baz Auckland
01:34 / 25.11.02
JesusChristDon'tScareMeLikeThat!
 
 
gingerbop
10:09 / 05.01.03

i thought it mostly was the first time,when u think its the 2nd... Tho im getting confused by the first/second/first/second time thing..

But deja vu is kinda cool. I have a friend who went to Canada for the first time in her life a few years ago. Her and her family got lost in the middle of nowhere in their car, yet she was SURE she'd been there before even tho there was no way that she had. And because she felt she knew it, she managed to direct them back to the town. Wierd, no? (maybe there were signposts, i dunno, but its cool anyway!)

I love it when u get prolonged deva vu, (or is that just me?) when it lasts about 15 secs and in that time u kno whos gonna say what next, and who will laugh. Perhaps thats only my family i do that with, coz theyr all on the same screwed up wavelength as me. I think we my have a phycic thing (more likely a psyco thing), me and my siblings. Coz we all know when each other r coming back to visit our parents without speaking to each other. Byee xx
 
  
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