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ARE you a terrorist ?

 
 
cat likes fish
09:29 / 16.11.01
yester day by order of the priz you can be trid be the millatery in secret. this is illigal we have just enterd a police state so i ask agine of you my friends how much freedom can we give up and still be free. you can't be held without your rights in this country it's agenst every thinhg we believe in now am i a terrorist for saying this i'm scared shitliss that i might say the wronge thing and be draged out of my home by the secret police or just the police for speaking out. help me some one this is not right we are being fucked am i the only one who see's this whut can we do to stop this now before it's to late and we live in germany in 1938. don't lit history repeat it's self we can't do this, i might be over reacting but this is real and fucking scary.
 
 
CorvusB
09:54 / 16.11.01
They already could try us in secret. If it was in secret, no one would know. What they've done now is make it possible for them to screw up the secret part. On the surface this scares the crap out of me, but upon closer inspection, I don't actually see much difference.
 
 
Turk
09:54 / 16.11.01
We're fucked! We're fucked! We're um, I've forgotten why but this really is it! I'm telling you we're fucked somehow or other, because this really is going to stop me from pissing about doing nothing at work, getting drunk every other friday and watching Friends!

Puh-lease!
It doesn't sound wonderful and it'll be bad news for some people who'll get unfairly treated and trodden on, but it's not going to bring down western society. This might sound pretty heartless but it most probably won't hurt anybody you or I know.

All done.
 
 
sleazenation
09:54 / 16.11.01
and when it does hurt people you know then its fine and dandy to go bombing civillian populations...
 
 
gentleman loser
09:54 / 16.11.01
quote:It doesn't sound wonderful and it'll be bad news for some people who'll get unfairly treated and trodden on, but it's not going to bring down western society. This might sound pretty heartless but it most probably won't hurt anybody you or I know.

That's exactly the problem. Everyone's in a complete state of denial that it just can't happen to them, cause they're decent law abiding, Christian folks.

Rent a clue, please.
 
 
Turk
09:54 / 16.11.01
quote:Originally posted by gentleman loser:


Everyone's in a complete state of denial that it just can't happen to them, cause they're decent law abiding...


And they're spot on.
Again I'm not saying it's a good thing but going insanely over the top about it is silly and call it the end, actually it's kind of obnoxious. Plenty of better reasons to be angry, such as all the bullshit economics that are screwing the poor and making a much bigger difference to millions of people you'll never even hear about.
But then condemning a large number of people to poverty doesn't have the showbiz TV razzmatazz and publicity of falsely imprisoning a much much much smaller number now does it?

[ 16-11-2001: Message edited by: D ]
 
 
Sharkgrin
09:54 / 16.11.01
I want to leave in society that does not NEED policemen, but realistically (because I fear the loss of things important to me, including my life), I would never lever live in a neighborhood WITHOUT policemen.

This ain't 1938, and jewish-germans weren't implicated in the immediate deaths of thousands of other germans.

I've never lost sight that fear is the single biggest motivator on the planet. I'll pay insurance up to a certain amount regularly for as long as necessary to prevent myself from being maimed or killed.

Do I want my liberties curtailed? No. I write my congressman about that once a week.

Do I want to die horribly or be maimed for politics I don't even understand? No. If this stops a genius-level murderer bent on "destroying America" who at present will not be persuaded otherwise, then I'll somehow live with it.

I pray that peace and understanding prevails.
 
 
fluid_state
09:54 / 16.11.01
can anybody post a link (or at least a reference) to where this information was acquired?
 
 
Fra Dolcino
09:54 / 16.11.01
This would be a start:


Scary shit

Makes you wonder why they bothered with a written constitution.

Mind you, the UK isn't much better, we've got this mad bastard wanting to detain without trial:


More scary shit

They're craftily rushing this legislation through in 5 days, without all MPs having chance to read what's being tabled. Moreover there is not nearly enough prime debating time set aside for it.

[ 16-11-2001: Message edited by: Fra Dolcino ]
 
 
MastahBlastah
09:54 / 16.11.01
The events of recent weeks have also brought about shit in the private sector which is just as nasty.

Nothing wrong with patriotism. Nothing wrong with being proud of one's country, city or whatever. Nothing wrong with waving one's flag.

Except when the powerful in business and governmet wave it to distract public attention from their attempts to grab more for themselves....especially when individual rights get subjegated in the process.
 
 
penitentvandal
09:54 / 16.11.01
cat - chill out.

Sure, they can detain you without trial - but they have to catch you first.

Sure, they can tap your 'phone - but they can't stop you and your mates inventing an innocuous code to describe anything you don't want the spooks to find out about.

Sure, they can monitor every single word you type on e-mail and the internet - but so what? Even if I write e-mails full of every Echelon keyword in the known universe, unless they actually have a reason to suspect you of terrorist activity that they can justify to their superiors, the likelihood of Agent Smith coming to bust you where you work is minimal, to say the least.

Trust me - right now, the powers-that-be have slightly more worring things than a bunch of crazy wyrdniks like us to worry about...

Right, guys?

[ 16-11-2001: Message edited by: velvetvandal ]
 
 
Fra Dolcino
13:17 / 16.11.01
It wont matter anyway. I'll be abducted at night, detained without trial, extradited to the US (now there are proposals to drop the ECHR articles that prevent a member state from extraditing people to countries that have the death penalty), tried secretly by a military court that doesn't have to have a unanimous or even 10 of 12 jury verdict, but 2 of 3 martial judges, and then promptly executed. And no-one will know. (or care. But I digress).
 
 
Enamon
13:21 / 16.11.01
Next thing you'll know there'll be cameras with face recognition software on every corner just like in Tampa, Florida.
 
 
Fra Dolcino
13:24 / 16.11.01
Oooh... I'ma gonna kill THE MAN (TM).
 
 
cat likes fish
17:19 / 16.11.01
quote: This might sound pretty heartless but it most probably won't hurt anybody you or I know.
close your eyes and ears my friend you seem to have been blessd with trust in your goverment. sorry folks right now thay may have bigger fish to fry but wuht about my unborn kides this law is not just going to afeck this gen but all that fallow quote:if you put a frog in boiling water he will jump , but if you put him in cood water and slowly tern it up he gets cooked . becous he never desides to jump
 
 
Cherry Bomb
17:46 / 16.11.01
quote:Originally posted by D:
[b]]This might sound pretty heartless but it most probably won't hurt anybody you or I know.


I am really disappointed at this incredibly short-sighted attitude. So you don’t know anyone who is “suspected of terrorism.” Then it’s no big deal that over a thousand foreigners being detained under “suspicion” (pointing this out because I believe the phrase we use in the legal system over here is “innocent until proven guilty” ) will not have access to a fair trial, undoubtedly ensuring that innocent people will be unfairly imprisoned? And that’s OK with you because you don’t know any of them?

And you don’t think there’s anything to worry about when both the U.S. and Britain slowly chip away at their citizens’ rights, via the above nonsense and their respective anti-terrorism bills because it doesn’t stop you from watching “Friends?” You have defeated yourself before you’ve even begun!

You know, a few years ago I was trying to pinpoint some reasons that Fascism rose in Europe in the 30s and 40s. And one of the reasons was SIMPLE COMPLACENCY. For example, if they’re giving Jewish business owners in one part of town a hard time because they’re Jewish, and you do nothing because it doesn’t affect you, when those businesses are later closed down it won’t be such an ire-raising shocker because you all ready sat through the first injustice.

YES you should get fucking mad and NO it doesn’t matter if it happens to you directly or not! This is something that certainly has the potential to affect you by the way, as a gradual chipping away at your civil rights.

But hey, you’ve got better things to do, right? I hear there’s a good “Friends” on tonight.
 
 
Turk
19:06 / 16.11.01
Hey I wasn't saying I think it's a good thing or that I don't oppose it. I'm just rather pissed-off by the obnoxious self-important attitude that this really means lots of people are "fucked" because it ignores the real growing problems of social deprivation and poverty that are affecting for more real people now, that's real oppression for the masses. Oppose these new measures yes but that "we are now officially fucked! [because of this one thing]" idea is wrong, stupid, sensationalist, smug and won't help the cause. But like I said, you can't get all excited about poverty and make spurious comparisons about the Nazis so lets not put too much weight on it.

I'm not going to watch Friends, but what I will do is hope people like you grow up and stop wetting yourselves with excitement over how we could possibly become a little bit more oppressed in one way when there are far bigger problems of economic oppression.

[ 16-11-2001: Message edited by: D ]
 
 
Frances Farmer
06:32 / 19.11.01
It is quite true that civil rights are being chipped away by these acts, one by one. And quite disturbing, at that. But, to add perspective, we also must consider history -- In the U.S., Lincoln completely suspended the constitution for the Civil War. More recently, all U.S. resident Japanese were detained during World War II -- a flagrant violation of civil liberties. During the Hoover administration of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover had a penchant for gathering files on U.S. citizens, in the event that they exhibit "Communist" tendancies, et al.

Essentially, in the U.S., civil rights have not been historically consistent. There are high tides and low tides. Times of war almost always constitute an ebb.

This doesn't mean it ought to be ignored. It's organizations like the ACLU that provide the force behind the 'flow' portion of this process -- but it is a process, not etched in granite.

It needs to be observed that this isn't unusual, in the vaster span of things. Nonetheless, it needs to be ensured that it does not become ubiquitous.

The entire purpose of government is violence. It's a very large bully whose purpose is to fend off smaller bullies, so the constituents of the nation can involve themselves with activites beyond self-preservation. Unfortunately, to an extent, this is the job of any politician -- do protect their position with violence, if necessary, and to quell violence before it becomes in every day issue.

In this case, the U.S. government has failed to prevent violence in it's territory. Those in the U.S. government responsible for these sorts of things are finding themselves in an intense campaign to a) make up for their basic failure, and b) attempt to protect their positions while they do so.

Hence the shutdown of open media, etc.

None of these are pretty things, but they are the very things government is intended to do.

The trick is maintaining the balance -- and this is delicate, indeed. This is why civil disobedience and protests are integral to healthy society -- they keep people thinking, and force government to work towards responsiveness. If a goverment goes ten years without serious civilian disapproval, it not only gets lazy, but also begins to clamp down on civil liberties and various programs in order to 'streamline'. It's a natural tendancy of power centers to do so -- to continually draw power.

I guess what I'm saying is, it's good to be aware of it, and to keep your eye on it. And it's fine to protest it. However, it's not as if this is unprecedented, or unexpected. The power centers in U.S. government are vested with the right to do this sort of thing. The founding fathers were perhaps mistaken in their choice of balance on this one -- the right to bear arms. However, it is the citizen's job to act as a watchdog for abuse of these expanded powers, and to make certain they do not become the norm.

To speak more subjectively: I can cite abuses for each and every instance in which these powers can be invoked, and yet I am hard-pressed to cite instances in which doing so has resulted in a significant increase in overall safety.

It should also be pointed out that, in certain circumstances, instances like this won't be obvious -- because "what works and what doesn't" is obviously integral to military strategy -- particularly the secrecy of the knowledge thereof.

I don't honestly know -- but my gut instinct always rails against these sorts of things. However, not much can be done about this right now. The only stance that can be adopted is apparently caution.

I am therefore cautious when considering the implications of this.

Eyes open.

[ 19-11-2001: Message edited by: Frances' Tired Tear Ducts ]
 
 
Fra Dolcino
07:54 / 19.11.01
quote: Originally posted by D:

Hey I wasn't saying I think it's a good thing or that I don't oppose it. I'm just rather pissed-off by the obnoxious self-important attitude that this really means lots of people are "fucked" because it ignores the real growing problems of social deprivation and poverty that are affecting for more real people now, that's real oppression for the masses.


Fine, perhaps you’ve got a point – start a thread on it; but social depravation isn’t what we’re talking about. ‘My oppression's worse than yours’ isn’t very productive.


Yeah I accept that it will probably make little or no difference to me and the lives of most of the population and that there’s no need for panic...... so long as its not you.

quote:Originally posted by Frances' Tired Tear Ducts:

essentially, in the U.S., civil rights have not been historically consistent. There are high tides and low tides. Times of war almost always constitute an ebb.


Who cares if a few ‘terrrorists’ are abused in the process: the cycle will revert itself in the long run and equillibrium will be reached again, it’ll all be all right in the end?

I understand that war leads to derogations. But it’s also the nature of the Government to grab power over civic rights and are reluctant to return it after war.

[ 19-11-2001: Message edited by: Fra Dolcino ]
 
 
Naked Flame
07:54 / 19.11.01
It was pointed out at the peace march yesterday that these military tribunals have the power to sentence people to death without a jury. Think about that for a second before you say 'it'll never happen to us.' Even if it never does happen to you, are you happy about living in a country that permits its military to execute those it considers criminals?

It was also alleged that the US want to allow use of sodium pentathol and torture to, quote unquote, 'jump-start the process of justice.' Anyone got any info on that?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
10:12 / 19.11.01
Can't find anything about the sodium pentathol bit, though I recall reading it somewhere. The thing that worries me about those military courts, though, came up in this BBC story: they're just for foreigners, not US nationals. Might've changed since then, but.. it's still rather scary. quote:US President George W Bush has signed an executive order to allow the trial of foreigners accused of terrorism by special military instead of civilian courts.

A White House spokesman said the order gave the president an additional tool in bringing those responsible for the 11 September attacks to justice.

No tribunals have yet been set up nor any suspects named.

But White House counsel Albert Gonzales said that the order, which does not apply to American citizens, gives Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld the authority to establish a military court in the future.
'Cause nobody from the US would have anything to do with terrorism, right? Yeeks.
 
 
Fra Dolcino
10:28 / 19.11.01
The worst thing was Dick 'Dick' Cheney:

"[terrorists] don't deserve the same guarantees and safeguards of the American judicial system."

"They will have a fair trial, but it will be under the procedures of a military tribunal, under rules and regulations to be established in connection with that,"

How will they know they're terrorists until they've had a fair trial? Rebuttably guilty until proven otherwise?
 
 
Naked Flame
15:02 / 19.11.01
Heh, they're gonna be scrambling to change it again when they find out the anthrax letters were sent by a US citizen. Betcha.
 
 
Frances Farmer
04:14 / 20.11.01
"Who cares if a few ‘terrrorists’ are abused in the process: the cycle will revert itself in the long run and equillibrium will be reached again, it’ll all be all right in the end?"

I certainly didn't say as much -- and I therefore must cite this as a distortion of my basic premise. I don't claim to know if it's 'alright' in the grand scheme of things or not. Our disagreement probably lies in the fact that I don't believe you're in a position to making those calls, either.

Nonetheless, it's my belief that we should all be striving to put ourselves in such positions -- to educate ourselves and each other, consistantly informing our opinions to the best of our ability.

But yes, you're partially correct in my assessment of the clinical portion of the whole bit: It's happened before, it'll happen again, and time and again civil liberties resurface. Like it or not "This, too, will pass,".

You have, however, ignored the part of my statement where I claim that the ACLU and like organizations are enormously important to this part of the process.

"I understand that war leads to derogations. But it’s also the nature of the Government to grab power over civic rights and are reluctant to return it after war."

And this I have duly acknowledged. It sounds like you may have found individual statements in my post far more objectionable than the overall thrust. I didn't say it was 'just dandy', nor did I make any indication about 'only the terrorists' suffering the consequences. All I said was, one ought to look at the overall arc before choosing a course of action -- or even a hardline opinion, for that matter.
 
 
Fra Dolcino
07:25 / 20.11.01
Frances, apologise if it seemed like I have ignored parts of your post. I read it all and appreciate the objectivity of it. My quote from your post was more in relation to D's argument of 'fuck it, shit happens, I'm okm Jack', but I failed to make that clear.

Although I don't necessarily agree with your Darwinistic (and somewhat Machiavellian!) view of Government, I do concur that there is a constant 'struggle' between NGOs and such like and Government, particularly in a security Vs rights context. However you did say that 'This too will pass'. Maybe. Its likely; but you or I can't be sure.


quote: I don't claim to know if it's 'alright' in the grand scheme of things or not. Our disagreement probably lies in the fact that I don't believe you're in a position to making those calls, either.

I have not set myself up to 'make these calls'. I am holding our society against the yardsticks that it sets itself. we can't be a forward thinking democracy that 'rails against the tyranny of the Taliban', when we are so willing to abandon the fundaments of our country: The rule of law.


quote: All I said was, one ought to look at the overall arc before choosing a course of action -- or even a hardline opinion, for that matter.

I agree totally. I don't feel that I have a hardline view.
 
 
Turk
17:14 / 20.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Fra Dolcino:
My quote from your post was more in relation to D's argument of 'fuck it, shit happens, I'm okm Jack', but I failed to make that clear.


That's not my argument, but oh-hum I said in relation to everything else going on in the world that it wasn't the single apocalyptic crisis that will be the end of all things good. I guess must must must mean I don't care to you drama queens.
Really do you think people are going to listen to the attention-slut ravings about of 'we're fuck we're fuck', constant chanting of 1984 and catchphrases about Nazism or a calm rational criticism of the law and it's dangers?
 
 
Frances Farmer
17:23 / 20.11.01
quote:
Frances, apologise if it seemed like I have ignored parts of your post. I read it all and appreciate the objectivity of it. My quote from your post was more in relation to D's argument of 'fuck it, shit happens, I'm okm Jack', but I failed to make that clear.


No biggie. I kinda suspected your post was primarily directed at someone else, as I was pretty sure I didn't hold any of the opinions you were railing against.

quote:
Although I don't necessarily agree with your Darwinistic (and somewhat Machiavellian!) view of Government, I do concur that there is a constant 'struggle' between NGOs and such like and Government, particularly in a security Vs rights context. However you did say that 'This too will pass'. Maybe. Its likely; but you or I can't be sure.


Hmm. I disagree. Yeah, my view of government is a little bit Machiavellian. But, I think we would all do well to recognize that this is where government came from, historically. The roots of government (and city, and some civilization, in the western-european part of the world at least) had a lot to do with hunters in sparse lands during sparse seasons offering to protect the shepherds and their flocks in exchange for access to the goods provided by the practice of shepherding. Hunters, you must recall, (as in 'hunters and gatherers'), are bullies. They literally seek and destroy for a living. And we're not talking a utopian atmosphere -- they didn't see a shepherd and go "Well, that's one of mine -- we'll leave him alone,". So, part of the hunter's job was to protect the shepherd from other hunters. Totally necessary practice as population density is on the rise. Shepherding being the first manifestion of agricultural tendancies, we're also looking at the first focus of human beings beyond a simple tribal structure. Where shepherding is done, large groups of people with diverse skills begin to concentrate. The increasing population density, however, has the negative affect of creating more competition for resources; which gives more hunters more impetus to eat off of the farmers, if you will.

The most Machiavellian part of my point is the idea that a political figure concerns hirself first and foremost with protecting their position and securing power. Once those ends have been acheived, the political figure can begin to exercise that power. This isn't the way any of us want the world to work, but we'll all have a lot more luck changing things for the better if we base our activities off of how things are rather than how we want them to be.

As far as the "This too will pass" bit, actually, it is true. That's what so great about that statement. I'm not sure where it originated, but I heard something these lines: It was originally a Chinese phrase. 2000BC one of the greater Chinese leaders had a council of Taoist masters who helped advise him on critical decisions. At one point, he asked them: "To demonstrate the wisdom of our rule, I would like you to generate a sentence that is true in all times and in all places,". Their response was "This too will pass."

If you think about it, it is true.



quote:I agree totally. I don't feel that I have a hardline view.[/QB]

This might not be you -- but it seems anyone who advocates moderation when approaching the relative seriousness of the Anti-Terrorism act gets lambasted for not caring about civil liberties. That, to me, is a hardline view.

I don't like the bill. And in combination with other things going on, it's really piqueing my spider-sense. Nonetheless, it helps me to give the whole situation historical context so I may better have an idea of where it's all going. (Hopefully, nowhere)
 
 
Cherry Bomb
22:02 / 20.11.01
D-

I'm not saying that other economic disparities are not important, and perhaps not even more pressing, but I do feel very strongly that ALL of them - the terrorism bill included- should be paid attention to. This thread is about the terrorism bill and that's what we've been focusing on here.

You make an excellent point; surely during the midst of this (ridiculous) war we are being distracted from other important issues. I just can't discount people who will be denied their rights and will be subjected to unfair trials as a result of this action - and I am really surprised that you could, in your initial post, appear to do just that. Disappointed, obviously not in you but merely in the same way it disappoints me to hear any similar sentiment.

Personally, I see all of these issues as very related. Globalization and its detractors are very much tied into our current focus ("Fighting Terrorism" ), and really, when the U.S. is demanding rights for women in Afghanistan we must look at the state of women's welfare in all countries. I don't think we can separate out any of these issues.

I am sorry if I came off harshly in my initial reply to your post - I just really felt like you were discounting human beings, and whether or not that was your intent, it did make me angry.

Finally - "attention slut." That is fucking beautiful. Really I will work this into a self-description, because I love it, and I'm really not being facetious here.
 
 
Fra Dolcino
07:51 / 21.11.01
quote:Originally posted by D:
That's not my argument, but oh-hum I said in relation to everything else going on in the world that it wasn't the single apocalyptic crisis that will be the end of all things good.


Yeah, a perspective is needed. No-one said it was an apocalyptic event, on the contrary, it appears that this legislation is going to slip through unnoticed by most.


quote: Really do you think people are going to listen to the attention-slut ravings about of 'we're fuck we're fuck', constant chanting of 1984 and catchphrases about Nazism or a calm rational criticism of the law and it's dangers?


'Catchphrases' to Nazism is a little harsh. To have a calm rational criticism of the law and its dangers, it makes sense to look over history for potential precedence. I don't think anyone here thinks that we'll be wearing Jackboots and listening to Lord Haw-Haw anytime soon.


Anyway, I love yer all (sheesh, Cherry's Barbe-lurvin thread sure is strong stuff).

[ 21-11-2001: Message edited by: Fra Dolcino ]
 
 
cat likes fish
20:12 / 21.11.01
i am just going to say wuht i think we are all saying. D don't get your pantys in a twist stop me if i got this wronge but i feel you may think me or eney one elis hear as a slut for atention i don't like that term not at all and would thank you for not useing it as for the rest of the world it is indeed importand to keep a eye on thing's. i don't know you D and have no right to juge you. but the best thing i see hear is this quote:This to will pass yes true but there is alot of people this will hert in the mean time. one day all things that are now. will be but sand. But this is history now we areentering a very scary time and have been for some time but wuht scares me the most is the amount of people how don't mind all the thing's we care about are slowly being takin away and i am alarmed i gess that makes me a alarmist. so fuck i'm scared, i have a right to be. the same people that are in power now will be in power for year's to come but thing's are moving faster now. we are very lucky to have the right to have a morale high grownd. for if i lived in any ather part of the world i would be to bisy trying to feed my self and not get shoot to give a fuck about the rest of the world. i don't wont to lose my freedom, so that i might have a false sence of saftyyou shit on the world sooner or later the world will throw your shit back at you. sorry to rant but i'm just sade that this is the way the world is so heres a tost to you my friends ( and you too D ) keep the fire berning. oh and D sorry to rage on you.
 
 
Frances Farmer
10:01 / 22.11.01
quote:yes true but there is alot of people this will hert in the mean time.

Yeah, I know. And I don't discount that as unimportant. I'm just encouraging people to recognize the people get hurt all the time which may be the symptom of a much larger problem relating to the basic functions of human nature itself. It's not just our governments that are fucked up. We are fucked up.

And that's ok.

As long as we recognize and work to change it. What's happening right now is happening -- believe it or not -- because a lot of people want it to. We need to look at why they do, and try to change that -- and not by propaganda and persuasion tactics, but by responsible and intelligent debate. I'm not saying this is the short road, but I am convinced that this is an integral piece of how great things get done.

quotene day all things that are now. will be but sand. But this is history now we areentering a very scary time and have been for some time but wuht scares me the most is the amount of people how don't mind all the thing's we care about are slowly being takin away and i am alarmed i gess that makes me a alarmist.

But by picking a side at all you're becoming complicit in the situation. You can no longer interpret the facts objectively. I think we might be approaching a serious nexus in human history -- and that's up to us, as humans. Furthermore, if we get there, it's up to us to pick the direction. It's all about responsibility. Only by taking responsibility for the situation as it is now can we hope to change it (for the better).

quote:so fuck i'm scared, i have a right to be the same people that are in power now will be in power for year's to come but thing's are moving faster now.

This is true. But the people do influence their governments. It's just very difficult.

I'm scared, too.

quote:we are very lucky to have the right to have a morale high grownd.

Nobody has the moral high ground. We're all just trying to figure this shit out. Those who do the most evil almost always believe they have the best of motives.

quote:for if i lived in any ather part of the world i would be to bisy trying to feed my self and not get shoot to give a fuck about the rest of the world. i don't wont to lose my freedom, so that i might have a false sence of safty

All sense of safety is false. Safety implies predicative knowledge of the future. The only time we know is now, the only place we know is here.

quote:you shit on the world sooner or later the world will throw your shit back at you.

Naturally. But we've all been shit-flinging for such a very long time. Why do you think that is?

quote:sorry to rant but i'm just sade that this is the way the world is so heres a tost to you my friends ( and you too D ) keep the fire berning. oh and D sorry to rage on you.

No apology necessary. You've done nothing wrong. It's all about being able to express yourself.
 
 
Fra Dolcino
11:08 / 22.11.01
Can anyone be truly objective? I don't believe its possible.

True nihilism can't exist. Everybody has values by which they set their lives. To me, laws are currently being passed that I find objectionable. I am therefore opposed to it. Not necessarily in a violent or panicked way, but I would lend support to an NGO or pressure group that is attempting (albeit peacefully) counter this legislation.

[ 22-11-2001: Message edited by: Fra Dolcino ]
 
  
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