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FBI/CIA Enlist Psychics To Help Find Bin Laden

 
 
FinderWolf
13:32 / 15.11.01
From the Sunday Times:
http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/11/11/stiusausa01012.html

Here's the full story:

November 11 2001 TERRORISM
Psychics join the manhunt


US intelligence agencies are recruiting psychics to help predict future attacks and to find Osama Bin Laden. The recruits, known as "remote viewers", claim to be able to visualise happenings in distant places by using paranormal powers.

The US government established a remote viewing programme, known as Stargate, in the 1970s in an attempt to utilise the skills claimed by psychics to combat communism. The programme, at the Stanford Research Institute in California, was shut down in 1995 after the end of the cold war.

Now, however, US intelligence agencies are reactivating some of their old paranormal spies.

Prudence Calabrese, whose Transdimensional Systems employs 14 remote viewers, confirmed that the FBI had asked the company to predict likely targets of future terrorist attacks.

"Our reports suggest a sports stadium could be a likely target," she said.

The FBI and CIA refused to comment but confirmed investigators have been told to "think out of the box".

Angela Thompson-Smith and Lyn Buchanan, former members of Stargate, said that they, too, had been approached.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
16:21 / 15.11.01
quote:Originally posted by HunterWolf:
Prudence Calabrese, whose Transdimensional Systems employs 14 remote viewers, confirmed that the FBI had asked the company to predict likely targets of future terrorist attacks. "Our reports suggest a sports stadium could be a likely target," she said.


Wow, they’re really going out on a limb with that prediction . . .
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:38 / 15.11.01
They should get Mystic Meg, or better yet, Jonathan Cainer...
"Luck sees the letter Q... love wears legwarmers... terrorists may or may not be planning stuff, but if they are, it's not very nice stuff".
I can't decide whether this is spooky & confirms all my paranoid conspiracist sentiments, or whether it's plain dumb. I remember a month ago they had that competition to come up with ways to deal with terrorism... and now this...
oh I don't know.
Weird, though.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
16:47 / 15.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Black John Bonnie the Stoat:
I can't decide whether this is spooky & confirms all my paranoid conspiracist sentiments, or whether it's plain dumb.


Can't it be both? Sort of a "Reagan consulted astrologers" sort of thing?
 
 
Kobol Strom
17:22 / 15.11.01
I dreamt last night I was having a conversation with Bush in the white house.Just as we'd finished talking theres a shout as we look over the lawn,on the Horizon another plane had crashed and there had been another three large explosions in the distance,all in a row.We'd been talking about our new philosophy about the media.
Just call me Nostrildamus.

The cultural de-programming continues as we try to un-fuck our heads in the space between the breaking news.Or some such shit.
 
 
Ierne
18:59 / 15.11.01
Just call me Nostrildamus. – kobol strom

Considering Bush's past penchant for "nose candy"...

[ 15-11-2001: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
CorvusB
22:00 / 15.11.01
They should enlist me. I dreamt last night that he was in Detroit and that the reason no one could find him was that he was dressed like MC Hammer. I then dreamt that my fears were realized and he was killed in the process of capture, thus never standing trial, robbing the US the chance for some valuable self reflection as he says his piece. I don't really believe the first part, but I would bet money on the second.
 
 
rizla mission
14:11 / 16.11.01
quote:Originally posted by CorvusB:
They should enlist me. I dreamt last night that he was in Detroit and that the reason no one could find him was that he was dressed like MC Hammer.


ha ha ha

Well I can't think of anything better to do when you're the most wanted man in the world..

..he probably films those bleary videos he keeps putting out in his basement, Waynes World style, with the beard and turban on stand-by..

what's that? Thread-Rot?

(EXXTREEMME CLOOSEE-UPPP!!)

ok, ok, Thread-Rot.
 
 
Ganesh
11:49 / 17.11.01
I'm actually surprised 'remote viewers' haven't been employed before now; there's a well-established tradition of using 'psychics' in missing persons cases - in the UK, anyway.

The difficulty with such individuals - as exemplified with our home-grown Apocaloids - lies in the vagueness of their so-called predictions. As with horoscopes, if a foretelling is sufficiently general and lacking in detail, any subsequent case developments can be claimed as a paranormal 'success' - "I dreamed of that three months ago!".

I'd be extremely interested to hear of any situation whereby a 'psychic' has made an unequivocal, cast-iron prediction, giving dates and times - or given simple, no-nonsense instructions as to where a missing person can be found. As opposed to the "something bad will happen soo-ooon" school of precognition.

If sufficiently skilled 'remote viewers' exist, why haven't they located Bin Laden?
 
 
Bill Posters
13:15 / 17.11.01
To my mind, Bin Laden must be a black magician of quite extraordinary calibre. Therefore, it would be a simple matter for him to 'block' any attempt at remote viewing him. Hence, he has and will continue to evade capture via this method.
 
 
Ganesh
13:26 / 17.11.01
Perhaps he wears a tinfoil-lined turban?
 
 
gentleman loser
13:30 / 17.11.01
As the article points out, this is nothing new.

The CIA has been working on "remote viewing" since the late 60's.

The paranoids were afraid of a "psychic gap", much like the mythical "bomber gap" and "missile gap".

Also note the Church of Scientology connection. Weird!

I find it absurd that tax dollars were wasted on this foolishness instead of on real, solid intelligence work. Regardless of whether you believe in psychic phenomena or not, it's no more of a suitable basis for deciding foreign policy than astrology or reading animal entrails. If you're a secret organization with zero accountablility like the CIA you can pretty much get away with funding just about any wacky idea you like (MK-ULTRA, etc.).

The US program was sustained through the support of Sen. Claiborne Pell, D-R.I., and Rep. Charles Rose, D-N.C., who were convinced of the program's effectiveness. However, by the early 1990s the program was plagued by uneven management, poor unit morale, divisiveness within the organization, poor performance, and few accurate results. The FY 1995 Defense Appropriations bill directed that the program be transferred to CIA, with CIA instructed to conduct a retrospective review of the program. In 1995 the American Institutes for Research (AIR) was contracted by CIA to evaluate the program. Their 29 September 1995 final report was released to the public 28 November 1995. A positive assessment by statistician Jessica Utts, that a statistically significant effect had been demonstrated in the laboratory [the government psychics were said to be accurate about 15 percent of the time], was offset by a negative one by psychologist Ray Hyman [a prominent CSICOP psychic debunker]. The final recommendation by AIR was to terminate the STAR GATE effort. CIA concluded that there was no case in which ESP had provided data used to guide intelligence operations.

Also see the use of HAARP, (a favorite of conspiracy and mind control theorists) to find underground structures.

[ 17-11-2001: Message edited by: gentleman loser ]
 
 
MJ-12
23:36 / 17.11.01
There's also speculation that the US remote viewing programs were a psyop to get the Soviets to to burn money, when we had more money to burn. Given that Omar is said to make many of his decisions based on visions, this might be similar.
 
 
Lionheart
05:23 / 18.11.01
I don't know where gentleman loser got his quote but it's a mis-informed article. Why? Well, because there wasn't just one Remote Viewing program in the U.S. government but several. The Army, Navy and I believe the Air force had their own separate remote viewing projects. Which were successes and helped find downed planes and track new Soviet submarine technology which was hidden from spy sattelites through a revolutionary technique. The submarines were hidden.. in a bunker! That's right folks. Solid walls protect people from spy sattelites! (except for the infa red sattelites.)

The problem with Major Ed Dames "techincal remote viewing" is the removal of blind standards which were put into place to keep a person's imagination alter sensory input. In other words, he doesn't teach people how to keep your mind from drawing conclusions from vague pieces of information. So if you jump to conclusions your correct results rating goes waaay down. Hmmm.... we should hold a remote viewing experiment on barbelith.
 
 
Ganesh
10:19 / 18.11.01
Can you link to some back-up material, Lionheart? I'm genuinely interested in finding properly-detailed copper-bottomed examples of this stuff working unequivocally.
 
 
bio k9
13:11 / 18.11.01
Hey, @God should sign up for this. I bet it brings a nice check. And if he said he saw something but couldn't tell anyone what it was they would probably torture it out of him. All in all not a bad gig.
 
 
Ganesh
13:18 / 18.11.01
His "something bad will happen in the next two weeks or it could be the next month but sometime and when it does, I'll have predicted it" schtick would fit right in...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:26 / 18.11.01
Well, I hope these psychics flick the switch from 'nonce' to 'genocidal world terrorist' before they start looking, don't want Dubya bombing the wrong place.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
06:35 / 20.11.01
Yeah, they'll be blowing the shit out of paediatricians before you can say "you what???"
Apparently Mullah Omar told the Taliban to retreat because of a prophetic dream...
...or is that just another way of saying "hey, hang in there with the war effort, kids! Our enemies are a bunch of supertitious savages! But OUR remote viewers rock a snow leopard's ass!!!"
I honestly know no more about this subject than I've gleaned from a couple of Channel 4 documentaries Feral House books, so I really don't know what to think.
But I would like to see some proof. Even if it was only for "WHOAH!!!" value.
 
 
grant
12:44 / 20.11.01
Shit. There was a great thread on this stuff in the Laboratory, but it apparently predates the latest board crash.

The skinny, as I recall, was that some people were able, after training, to get pretty detailed glimpses of specific structures, draw accurate base layouts or diagrams of things like missile launch platforms. It seemed like the information was always visual and the kind of thing that could be transmitted in less than a second.

Lemme look for some links....
Here, London Times article from 1995.
quote:The team's first high-profile problem was the Iranian hostage crisis in 1979, when militants seized the American embassy in Tehran and held 63 diplomats prisoner. Almost immediately the American government began planning to rescue the hostages, but intelligence was thin and the exact locatino of all the Americans was impossible to learn through conventional methods.

"They would take a picture of a hostage, put it in a double envelope and give it to me," said McMoneagle. "Then I would concentrate and sketch the room where that person was being held, or maybe just the contents of the room. My rate was and is about one in four. I would consider it effective that I could describe the location where three of the hostages had been taken."

Ultimately, that information proved of little value as an attempt to rescue the hostages turned into tragedy when the transport aircraft crashed at a site codenamed Desert One, south of Tehran.

However, there were some startling successes. One psychic described an airfield with a gantry and crane at a set of coordinates that placed it at the Soviet nuclear test site at Semipalatinsk. A spy satellite photograph the following day showed the exact crane and gantry structure described by the psychic.

The psychics, also described as "remote viewers," were used to try to locate Colonel Gadaffi before the 1986 airstrike on Tripoli by American aircraft. Although the bombing failed to kill Gadaffi, a psychic did apparently locate him.

There were high-profile failures, too. The psychics had suggested that an American general seized by Red Brigades terrorists in Italy in 1981 was held on a yacht on Lake Como. Police searched every boat and found nothing. Another sighting reported him hidden in Austria. That, too, was a false trail. The general was eventually released after police received a tip-off.


So, it's not 100%, but then again, neither are high-altitude photographs. (Hitler used to paint barn roofs and country roads over airfields to fool reconnaissance planes.)

If you'd like something more specific & scientific, here's an article from the University of California, Davis Division of Statistics.

quote:Using the standards applied to any other area of science, it is concluded that psychic functioning has been well established. The statistical results of the studies examined are far beyond what is expected by chance. Arguments that these results could be due to methodological flaws in the experiments are soundly refuted. Effects of similar magnitude to those found in government-sponsored research at SRI and SAIC have been replicated at a number of laboratories across the world. Such consistency cannot be readily explained by claims of flaws or fraud.
snip
Government-sponsored research in psychic functioning dates back to the early 1970s when a program was initiated at what was then the Stanford Research Institute, now called SRI International. That program was in existence until 1989. The following year, government sponsorship moved to a program at Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC) under the direction of Dr. Edwin May, who had been employed in the SRI program since the mid 1970s and had been Project Director from 1986 until the close of the program.
snip Few human capabilities are perfectly replicable on demand. For example, even the best hitters in the major baseball leagues cannot hit on demand. Nor can we predict when someone will hit or when they will score a home run. In fact, we cannot even predict whether or not a home run will occur in a particular game. That does not mean that home runs don't exist.

Scientific evidence in the statistical realm is based on replication of the same average performance or relationship over the long run. We would not expect a fair coin to result in five heads and five tails over each set of ten tosses, but we can expect the proportion of heads and tails to settle down to about one half over a very long series of tosses. Similarly, a good baseball hitter will not hit the ball exactly the same proportion of times in each game but should be relatively consistent over the long run.

The same should be true of psychic functioning. Even if there truly is an effect, it may never be replicable on demand in the short run even if we understand how it works. However, over the long run in well-controlled laboratory experiments we should see a consistent level of functioning, above that expected by chance. The anticipated level of functioning may vary based on the individual players and the conditions, just as it does in baseball, but given players of similar ability tested under similar conditions the results should be replicable over the long run. In this report we will show that replicability in that sense has been achieved.
 
 
penitentvandal
12:45 / 20.11.01
This is getting silly.

How long d'you reckon it'll be before we have huge recruiting posters all over the place showing Colonel Friday saying 'I want you for the Outer Church'?

Or Quimper. Quimper on recruiting posters. Brrr.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
14:00 / 20.11.01
There’s little mystery about how a baseball player hits a home run. The structure of ball, bat, and body are tangible and measurable. The biology of muscles and skeleton, the physics of impact and flight, and the strategy of timing and the sweet spot are all well understood.

By contrast, there is no experimentally confirmed theory that establishes mechanisms for remote viewing. No one has detected any physical medium through which the information that is supposedly gained has traveled; no one has located a sensory organ in the human body that act as a receptor for this information. You can make a special plead that remote viewing, unlike the other human senses, requires neither, but such an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof.

The article from UC Davis DS relies on meta-analysis, comparing the results from study to study. Meta-analysis is notoriously flimsy because it cannot correct for flaws in the studies themselves without introducing bias. For example, if I were to do a meta-analysis of human intelligence testing, my results would probably “prove” that whites are more intelligent than blacks, because flawed older studies that show a difference count for just as much as newer studies with better controls. If I were to exclude studies that I considered flawed from my meta-analysis, I would be introducing my own biases into the study--this is called “cherry-picking” data. No doubt I would confirm my personal belief that blacks and whites have roughly equal mental abilities, but from a strictly experimental point of view, the meta-analysis would be worthless.

I’m not saying remote viewing doesn’t exist, but I’m unconvinced by the poor evidence because I know that wishful thinking exists. To return to the baseball metaphor, a home run is a well-defined event. You either hit one or you don’t; it’s impossible to argue after the fact that wherever you hit the ball counts as a home run. But with remote viewing, there’s always the subjective element of mapping whatever the viewer predicted onto reality. From the quotes above, it’s impossible for us to say how detailed and precise the remote viewer’s description of the crane and gantry was. We might guess that it was very detailed and precise if it deserved such a prominent citation--but we might be wrong. Perhaps coincidence is enough to explain it, especially if the viewer made many such predictions over a long period of time without scoring equally dramatic hits.

A lot of people really, really want psychic powers to pop up and say hello, as if the world isn’t miraculous enough already. Consider the words of the Zen master who was asked if he could write a sutra through the air over a river like the Zen master next door. “Perhaps he can do that. For me, the miracle is that when I am hungry I eat, and when I am tired I sleep.”
 
 
Kobol Strom
15:02 / 20.11.01
Has anyone ever heard of 'unconscious astral projection'?Whereby you are sleepwalking through astral space unaware of your predicament,guided by the unconscious?
Sylvan Muldoon claimed to be capable of becoming conscious whilst projecting,like waking into a lucid dream.
These projectors,there are supposedly thousands of people who project unconsciously,but only about fifty to five hundred have the ability to instigate a projection.
I had a very realistic dream about projecting a few years ago,I got caught in a device at NORAD,and became conscious astrally,a soldier rushed out into the corridor and pointed a big space gun at me.His radio came on,and a voice on the line told him to let me go ,because I was 'only a sleepwalker',he said.
The soldier seemed terrified...but they let me go obviously.(I don't know if this experience was real or not.)
If they have people who can project,they must have people who can stop projectors as well as people or devices that can recognise them,because of the risks of an enemy utilising these techniques.

[ 20-11-2001: Message edited by: kobol strom ]
 
 
Lionheart
16:09 / 21.11.01
Chuckling Duck: Read the following

http://www.angelfire.com/realm/psyzone/winston.htm

And what do you mean by extra-ordinary evidence? And shouldn't all claims require extra-ordinary evidence? Because if we don't require that from all claims then we are not only biased but also not willing to prove things we take for granted.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
18:01 / 21.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Lionheart:
Chuckling Duck: Read the following ...


Wow, pretty long article. But I’ll make you a deal; I’ll read it if you read “The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark” by Carl Sagan.

quote:Originally posted by Lionheart:
And what do you mean by extra-ordinary evidence? And shouldn't all claims require extra-ordinary evidence? Because if we don't require that from all claims then we are not only biased but also not willing to prove things we take for granted.


I mean the less a datum seems to fit with other data, the more scrutiny that datum deserves.

If someone claims to have invented a perpetual motion machine, it’s reasonable to demand more evidence than we would from someone who claims to have created a vibrating hat. It’s easy to conceive of a design for the latter that would operate under physical laws as we understand them, but the former seems to be a violation of well-established principles of physics.

But you’re absolutely right that we should regularly subject all the things we take for granted to close scrutiny. That's how our knowledge advances. Good point. On the other hand, we have to live our lives. If you’re like me, you accept some ideas without testing them (if you step off the roof you’ll fall, if you stop breathing you’ll pass out) and discard some ideas without testing them (Your wife has been killed and replaced by a robot duplicate, God will smite you if you don’t immediately kneel and pray). We only apply the scientific method when a proposition is a) testable and b) interesting.

[ 21-11-2001: Message edited by: Chuckling Duck ]
 
  
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