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And Fueling My Paranoid Fear of Fascism Today is..

14:55 / 14.11.01

the fact that Bush wants to try terror suspects in military courts. quote: WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush signed an order on Tuesday that would allow the U.S. military to set up special courts to try foreigners accused in the Sept. 11 attack and similar assaults.

``To protect the United States and its citizens, and for the effective conduct of military operations and prevention of terrorist attacks, it is necessary for individuals subject to this order ... to be detained, and, when tried, to be tried for violations of the laws of war and other applicable laws by military tribunals,'' the order said.

*****

The order specified that anybody detained would be ``treated humanely without any adverse distinction based on race, color, religion, gender, birth, wealth or any similar criteria, and afforded adequate food, water, shelter, clothing and medical treatment.''

*****

``The president thinks it can be a helpful option now in bringing al Qaeda suspects to justice,'' White House spokesman Ari Fleischer told reporters.

But the American Civil Liberties Union criticized the move, saying Bush should first ``justify why the current system does not allow for the timely prosecution of those accused of terrorist activities.''

``Absent such a compelling justification, today's order is deeply disturbing and further evidence that the administration is totally unwilling to abide by the checks and balances that are so central to our democracy,'' said Laura Murphy, director of the ACLU's national office.

``Increasingly they appear willing to circumvent the requirements of the Bill of Rights,'' she added.

Indeed.
Yikes!

15:42 / 14.11.01

From the article:
...a former Texas Supreme Court judge who is the president's top lawyer said a military commission could have advantages over a civilian court. He said it was easier to protect sources and methods of investigation in military proceedings. Also, a military trial could be held overseas.

In other words, they don't want anyone to know what they're doing and how they're doing it. (or am I too being paranoid?)

15:57 / 14.11.01

From another article:
quote:
Rules for such a court could give the government a freer hand to introduce evidence or statements that probably would be excluded from a regular criminal trial, and military jurors might be more likely to vote for a death sentence, said David B. Rivkin, a Washington lawyer who published a legal paper on Bush's options this month.

Convicted terrorists might be executed shortly after a trial, with few or none of the long delays for additional court appeals
common in criminal courts, lawyers said.

Bush shure do love that death penalty...

link

22:34 / 14.11.01

we are entering a dark time. buy a big gun and thin use it to plant flowers. how much freedom do you wont to give up in order to be free. oh and go see brazil

Frances Farmer

05:39 / 15.11.01

There's also the looming threat of this act, which they may well make extensive use of.

This whole situation has been repeated through U.S. history a great many times. Bad things do happen almost every time, but this is certainly a granted aspect of wartime in the U.S.

And there's this, snipped from Indymedia:

quote:
"Operation Garden Plot is the Army's code name for military plans to put down civil disturbances. It was most recently activated during the 1992 riots in Los Angeles, the 1999 WTO meetings in Seattle, the 2000 Philadelphia Republican National Convention, and the 2000 Democratic National Convention in L.A. Well over 100 concentration camps have been designated and are maintained for use under Operation Garden Plot. With the sweeping new police powers ushered in since 9-11, and the possible more to repeal or amend the Posse Comitatus act, the Federal Government is now taking aim at dissent at home rather than terrorism abroad."

And we know about the terrorism bill:

* Roving wiretaps

* 'Secret' search-and-seizure

* A week of detainment without probable cause

* And A Whole Lot More!

Not a pretty thing. Not unheard of, but not a pretty thing. So far, though, we can still get away with thinking for ourselves.

06:11 / 15.11.01

This is just getting ridiculous, basically.

I'm all for stopping people flying 'planes into buildings, but I don't really think this'll help. I mean it's all very well having internment and millitary courts and all sorts of hard-ass, Judge Dredd-style legal toys to play with, but, um, don't you actually have to, ah, how to put this...catch the terrorists first?

And all this roving wiretaps bs - typical US bias toward sigint capabilities. Helpful hint: Echelon didn't catch the hijackers. Telephone surveillance didn't catch the hijackers. Spy satellites didn't catch the hijackers. Is everyone getting this?

Once again the big boys in the US intelligence (sic) agencies resort to knee-jerk fascist measures and the erotic satisfaction of sexy technology. Rather than, say, modifying their international conduct a little and hiring some Middle East personnel who can actually speak Middle Eastern languages.

Quelle surprise.

06:26 / 15.11.01

quote:Originally posted by Frances' Tired Tear Ducts:
* A week of detainment without probable cause

A week? Boy, you Americans are soft on terrorism. Here in the UK we now have (or soon will) indefinite detainment. And it turns out that people suspected of terrorism will never hear the evidence gathered against them by intelligence services - not even in court, since parts of the trial will be conducted in camera.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

07:58 / 15.11.01

And I hear habeus corpus is gonna fuck off from the Magna Carta, Bill of Rights etc, too.
Scary, man. Very scary.

11:29 / 15.11.01

I was just talking to my officemate about this 20 minutes before I found this BB. I keep thinking the names "Sacco and Vanzetti" ... Anyone know where I can re-learn what I feel may be a relevant historical tangent?

11:33 / 15.11.01

Habeas corpus isn't actually in the Bill of Rights over here (it's a separate and earlier act), but yes, David Blunkett's new measures are terrifying:

The anti-terrorism, crime and security bill, Mr Blunkett's answer to "airy-fairy" civil liberties, brings in a further raft of measures. Among other things, it abolishes privacy on the internet, extends the powers of government agencies to exchange information about individuals, and implements, under guise of the crisis, other invasive ambitions the authorities have long entertained. Its fiercest novelty is to provide for detention without trial of any non-citizen whom the home secretary suspects of being a terrorist. Such a person can be held for six months, then another six, and another, as long as the request is made. It is a truly drastic innovation.

Judicial review is explicitly ruled out.

He is basically able to declare a state of emergency to pass this, even though he admits there is no real emergency, and the law lords are just lying down and letting him do it. Grrrrr!

The full article is here.

12:10 / 15.11.01

The thing with the u.s. terrorism bill is most of those things (roving wiretaps, etc.) expire as laws in five years - but you KNOW what's going to happen. They'll quietly extend those changes in five years when no one's paying attention.

You've got to be fucking kidding me about the Alien & Sedition Act. That always struck me as one of the darkest laws we ever had. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised, coming from the Bush Dynasty and all.

You know, look, I don't want to have to worry about terrorism. I obviously want to be protected from "The Bad People" but WHO wants to live in a world where you can't DO anything? What kind of life is that?

Here in Chicago there are so many police officers downtown it's ridiculous. I counted in front of ONE SIDE of my office building the other day - SEVEN police officers, plus a paddywagon, plus a mounted officer, plus scores of security guards. ANd that was ONE side of our building! Does that strike anyone as excessive?

Grr.

12:18 / 15.11.01

this is totally offtopic, but:

yay! mojokitten! how ya doing, you old jezebel, you?

returning you to you thread now...

12:45 / 15.11.01

quote:
The anti-terrorism, crime and security bill, Mr Blunkett's answer to "airy-fairy" civil liberties, brings in a further raft of measures. Among other things, it abolishes privacy on the internet, extends the powers of government agencies to exchange information about individuals....etc. etc.

And a few years ago they were s'posed to be the semi-socialist 'party of the Left'??

fuckin' hell...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

13:22 / 15.11.01

The language they're using seems to get ever more playground-bully, too- "emotional", "airy-fairy"...
why don't they just tell us all our mums have fleas and have done with it?
Who'd have thought that by the simple act of putting Straw in charge of being unpleasant to foreigners instead of to Brits, they'd find someone even more draconian to take his place? (And I know, there's the whole dope thing, but that seems kind of trivial right now.)

13:58 / 15.11.01

Also off topic and on that same tip, mojokittie, are you who I think you are? IE a gorgeous blonde gun enthusiast from Texas who runs a listserv, and has the initials AC?

If so, hello from AstroGirl MJ, baby!

If not, welcome anyway!

Also returning you to your thread.

16:21 / 15.11.01

Yes, from Austin. Like to think I'm gorgeous, but

Definately not a blond - natural or other. Wanna know more, feel free to e-mail or check the URL.

So, what? No-one else remembers the Sacoo/Vanzetti thing?

17:46 / 15.11.01

Here's a Google search on Sacco & Vanzetti. Hope it helps.