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Torn - peace and war and good and evil and...

 
 
QUINT
13:14 / 14.11.01
Afghan women on tv celebrating. Taliban in retreat.

I prayed for this, six months ago.

I used to sit there and wish for it.

Possible cross-party Afghan government. Possible foreign money pouring in. Showcase of the West, like Berlin?

Kabul: new Tokyo.

It could save us all.

Do I have the right to object to the war? I hate it. But am I sure the consequences will be bad? And did I have an alternative way of removing the Taliban? Politics... sanctions? Don't make me laugh. And they're no cleaner than this mess.

Do I have a right to say to those women 'wait for a peaceful solution'? I do not.

I know, that's not what this was supposed to be about, but...

If it ends soon, I'll be glad it happened. If we can make good things out of it, I'll wonder if I was wrong to oppose the war so much. Is it just that I don't have the moral courage to accept the utility of violence in the causes I espouse? I want perfectly clean hands...luxury...
 
 
Malle Babbe
17:11 / 14.11.01
You aren't the only one. Personally though, I have the sneaking suspicion that the US Govt. is going to soon make the mistake of assuming that the N. Alliance's animus against the Taliban also means that they "like" us, while in reality they just happen to be on the same side that it is on... Their own, that is... And once again the the vaunted powers of the CIA will once again stand by and let us get bit on the ass again.

I heard a report of 100 Taliban soldiers being herded up by N. Alliance troops and killed. Techinically thiat would be a war crime, but to myself I was thinking "100 psychotic woman-haters get iced and I am supposed to feel bad???"

In the end though, I think that the need to have a balance of fear (and to keep the shareholders in the Carlysle Group happy) will supercede any benneficial change anywhere.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:10 / 14.11.01
Doncha just love the way Blair/Bush/Straw et al, who only a couple of days ago were hoping the Northern Alliance wouldn't go into Kabul until they were good and ready for it... now they're making out that was their plan all along?
Sorry... just realised I neatly sidestepped the ethical question there. Ummm... it is kind of confusing right now, isn't it? Yes, Afghan women now have a fair bit more freedom, which can only be a good thing. Somehow, I don't think that's the only result that will come out of this before it's all over, though. And some of the others may not be too pretty. But then, I'm a cynical bastard- but I'm praying to whoever that I'm wrong...
 
 
Cat Chant
06:33 / 15.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Black John Bonnie the Stoat:
Yes, Afghan women now have a fair bit more freedom, which can only be a good thing.


I think "now" is the operative word. It's been two days.

(And I'm sure you all know that "white men protecting brown women from brown men", as Gayatri Spivak puts it, has been the justification of Western colonialism since at least the 19th century. Personally, when the Western media start talking like they support women's rights, I get suspicious.)

Oh, hell, I don't know. I'm confused about what to think now too. Here's a quote from a Media Workers Against the War press release, though:

quote: "The fall of Kabul has only exposed to ever greater scrutiny the hypocrisy, injustice and dangerous ambiguity underlying this war," said a Stop the War Coalition spokesperson today (14 November).

"When the so-called war against terrorism was declared, at no time did its aims include the handing-over of Kabul and other Afghan cities to the warlords of the Northern Alliance.

"This war is still going on and it is still cruel, unjust and counter-productive - stop it now!

"The triumphalism of the pro-war faction in our media is yet further evidence that this war has nothing to do with securing justice for the victims of 11 September in the USA.

"Contrary to claims in some sections of the media, at no time has the anti-war movement in this country supported the Taliban or indeed any other armed faction within Afghanistan. What all these factions have in common - including both the Taliban and Northern Alliance - is their contempt for democracy and human rights and their reliance on sponsorship and weaponry supplied by outside powers.

"What the people of Afghanistan need from us now is food, material assistance and an immediate end to military action. What they do not need is another arrogant carve-up imposed by a super-power.

"The Stop the War Coalition is also gravely alarmed at the indications that some factions in Washington seek the expansion of
this war into Iraq. Such a move would have appalling consequences - in loss of human life, in abuses of human rights, and in political instability and social conflict - and we will resist it with all our might.

"We also note that the war is continuing to be used as an excuse by the British government to take away our civil liberties and human rights. Our demonstration on Sunday will also be a reminder to the Blair government that there is massive opposition to these new restrictions - which make a mockery of the values of democracy and tolerance that our government claims to be fighting for.

"We also condemn the US bombing of the al-Jazeera TV offices in Kabul - on the very morning that the US allies in the Northern Alliance moved on the city. We have a right to see what is being done in our name. Reports from Mazar-i-Sharif and elsewhere indicate that there are hundreds of revenge killings being carried out by the US-UK sponsored coalition forces.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
06:55 / 15.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Malle Babbe:
I heard a report of 100 Taliban soldiers being herded up by N. Alliance troops and killed. Techinically thiat would be a war crime, but to myself I was thinking "100 psychotic woman-haters get iced and I am supposed to feel bad???"


Or 100 terrified conscripts.
 
 
QUINT
07:04 / 15.11.01
As much an assumption as Malle's thoughts, obviously.

That's the point. I can't see this in black and white any more.

But suppose that, on aggregate, it actually produces a vastly more stable world, and strengthens the liberal current in the Eastern world - I repeat the question: do I have the right to withhold support, just because the immediate consequences offend my morality - consequences which might be far outweighed by the bad side of not intervening militarily?
 
 
Naked Flame
07:15 / 15.11.01
Nice pic on the front of yesterday's Daily Mail.

A Taliban fighter cowering covered in blood, with his trousers down. Three men pointing guns at his head. Blood all over his clothes. Looked like he'd been gutshot already, possibly raped, possibly castrated.

If so, this is a war crime.

That guy might be a war criminal himself. Does that justify shooting/castrating/raping him?

Well, for my money, a big fat NO- the way to deal with this stuff is through the rule of law, not the law of the gun.

That said, I can't find it in my heart to shed any tears for the Taliban's dead.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
07:54 / 15.11.01
Hey, Deva, don't get me wrong... that was cautious optimism, with the emphasis more on the cautious thatn the optimism. I guess I could have clarified myself a bit more, though.
As far as I can tell, this is the really dangerous part, where things could go either way... for better or worse. I agree, celebration seems a little premature.
And I'm not suggesting any of you do, but I can't take pleasure in anyone's dead. Not really.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
13:07 / 15.11.01
Here's the statement from RAWA (Revolutionary Women of Afghanistan):

quote:
Now it is confirmed that the Taliban have left Kabul and the Northern Alliance has entered the city.

The world should understand that the Northern Alliance is composed of some bands who did show their real criminal and inhuman nature when they were ruling Afghanistan from 1992 to 1996.

The retreat of the terrorist Taliban from Kabul is a positive development, but entering of the rapist and looter NA in the city is nothing but a dreadful and shocking news for about 2 million residents of Kabul whose wounds of the years 1992-96 have not healed yet.

Thousands of people who fled Kabul during the past two months were saying that they feared coming to power of the NA in Kabul much more than being scared by the US bombing.

The Taliban and Al-Qaeda will be eliminated, but the existence of the NA as a military force would shatter the joyful dream of the majority for an Afghanistan free from the odious chains of barbaric Taliban. The NA will horribly intensify the ethnic and religious conflicts and will never refrain to fan the fire of another brutal and endless civil war in order to retain in power. The terrible news of looting and inhuman massacre of the captured Taliban or their foreign accomplices in Mazar-e-Sharif in past few days speaks for itself.

Though the NA has learned how to pose sometimes before the West as "democratic" and even supporter of women's rights, but in fact they have not at all changed, as a leopard cannot change its spots.

RAWA has already documented heinous crimes of the NA. Time is running out. RAWA on its own part appeals to the UN and world community as a whole to pay urgent and considerable heed to the recent developments in our ill-fated Afghanistan before it is too late.

We would like to emphatically ask the UN to send its effective peace-keeping force into the country before the NA can repeat the unforgettable crimes they committed in the said years.

The UN should withdraw its recognition to the so-called Islamic government headed by Rabbani and help the establishment of a broad-based government based on the democratic values.

RAWA's call stems from the aspirations of the vast majority of the people of Afghanistan.




I'd really like it we could just put RAWA in charge of the country and be done with it.
 
 
Naked Flame
13:40 / 15.11.01
Hear hear, bombstergirl.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
13:59 / 15.11.01
[URL=http://rtnews.globetechnology.com/servlet/RTGAMArticleHTMLTemplate/D/20011113/gtbaggot1?tf=tgam/realtime/fullstory_Tech.html&cf=globetechnology/tech-config-neutral&slug=gtbagg ot1&date=20011113&archive=RTGAM&site=Technology]this[/URL] is an interesting perspective.

(and if that doesn't work, try this)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:05 / 15.11.01
Hey, I was gonna link to that in this thread too! You got that from betty woo's blog, yes?

As for the main thrust of this thread: yes, I'm torn too. I'm sickened by the triumphalism and "told you so, peacenik losers" attitude that's dominating the press, and I'm sickened by the way it's assumed that anyone the Northern Alliance "mop up" (ugh) must have been one of the evil women-oppressing bad guys and therefore had it coming.

But. Aid workers released, the possibility of a safe route for aid opening up in the north, music in Kabul again... Even when filtered through the media bullshit that tells us everything is okay now, we can stop paying attention (shortly to be followed no doubt by the media turning its attention elsewhere as events in Kabul become "slow news") - even so, these are good things. As someone has said elsewhere, if the military action has meant that more people can be fed than otherwise, I might have to seriously re-think the way I felt about it...

Is it possible to be glad that these good things are happening and yet still deplore the bombing campaign that preceded it?

We don't know yet, is the simple answer... We don't know how this is going to pan out. Have the events of the last few days made me question some of the opinions I was holding about the war? Yes. And questioning your assumptions = almost always a good thing. But I think we need to be very careful about falling into the "whoops, it was a just war after all!" mindset, for various reasons - some of them pragmatic, some of them on principle.

[ 15-11-2001: Message edited by: Flyboy ]
 
 
01
15:19 / 15.11.01
Hey, damn good link.
Why aren't the RAWA at the table? They've been one of the Taliban's most effective opponents. Definitely the bravest.
I hope the UN can take control soon, before a new cycle of violence (this time prepetuated by an NA government) starts all over again.
Cherry. I agree. Let the women run the show.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
15:21 / 15.11.01
No, I actually don't really read anyone's blog, well sometimes I do but I'd never read Betty Woo's.

I just think that RAWA kick major ass and I've been a fan for a long time. I've been looking forward to getting my bank account nightmare sorted so I can donate some money to them (thank GOD they appeared on Oprah).

They started as just your typical feminist group back in I think 79, and when the Taliban shit hit the fan they transformed into the mass of feminist revolutionary fury that they are today.

RAWA should be at the table, but I don't think they will be. The idea of females in a place of governmental power is disturbing to the Northern Alliance, to Pakistan, to Saudi Arabia, and the U.S. and Britain will try in this regard to demonstrate that this isn't a war of Islamic values.
 
 
QUINT
15:26 / 15.11.01
Don't let's get all carried away, now, people. Women in power don't automatically become saintly, sweet-hearted, vengeance-free folks like Galadriel from 'Lord of the Rings'.

Under pressure and threat, or deep anger, they're just as likely to turn into Mrs. Milosevic or Winnie Mandela.

So let's have everyone at the table, please.

But basically, yeah, the NA are a bunch of bastards (no big surprise - although I'm curious as to the ethnic makeup of the RAWA...). And here we are, right in the thick of what happens next, troops in the area, making our presence felt.

Ready to fight another war against our former allies? Perhaps...

But that's my point again: do I have the right to go all pacifistic and say 'no, RAWA, you must engage in political discourse, not demand physical intervention on your behalf, because my western scruples and my perception of political reality do not allow violence as a means of problem-solving?'

Odious piece by Paul McCartney in the paper this morning. Same questions...
 
 
autopilot disengaged
15:54 / 15.11.01
quote:Will the advance of the Northern Alliance save people who are at risk of famine in Afghanistan? It will almost certainly save some of them. Much more aid is now entering the areas which have come under Northern Alliance control, though, like the retreating Taliban, the Alliance fighters have been looting supplies and commandeering UN vehicles. But for thousands the help is likely to have arrived too late. The interruption of supplies during the eight weeks in which they should have been stockpiled for the winter means that many of those living in the valleys made inaccessible by snow will die before they can be reached.

Will it lead to the capture or killing of Osama bin Laden? Possibly. Will it free the world from terrorism? No. Will it deliver regional or global security? Probably not. The Northern Alliance's gains represented a bounty for Russia and a blow for Pakistan, whose government is now facing a far graver test in victory than it would have faced in defeat. Even in Britain, a new poll by the Today programme shows 80% of Muslims opposed to the west's war.

But, as well as asking what this war has done to Asia, we must also ask what it has done to us. And here, it seems to me, the bugles sounding victory for civilised values are also sounding a retreat.

The first and most obvious loss is our repudiation of the very basis of civilisation: human rights. The new terrorism bills in America and Britain have required the suspension of both the US constitution and the UK's human rights act - it seems that in trying to shut the terrorists out, we have merely imprisoned ourselves.

One of the last smart bombs deployed in Kabul destroyed the offices of al-Jazeera, the only truly independent major television station in the Arab world. Al-Jazeera has consistently provided a voice for Muslims opposed to US military intervention in Afghanistan, as well as airing Bin Laden's inflammatory videos. A few weeks ago Colin Powell sought to persuade the emir of Qatar to close it down, without success. Its destruction suggests that free speech and dissent have now joined terrorism as the business of "evil-doers".

The second loss to the west is the triumph of war-war over jaw-jaw. The partial victory in Afghanistan appears to have convinced both governments and commentators that we can blast our way to world peace. No serious attempt was made, before the bombing began, to differentiate between just and unjust war. Justice in war, as almost every philosopher since Thomas Aquinas onwards agrees, requires that the peaceful alternatives should first have been exhausted. There is plenty to suggest that the initial aim - to capture Bin Laden - could have been achieved without recourse to arms. The Taliban twice offered to hand him over on receipt of evidence pointing to his guilt: a much lower barrier to extradition than western governments would have raised. We appear to have made no attempt to discover whether or not they could have been taken at their word. Now justice appears to have been redefined as success, and war as the only route to peace.

This new triumphalism is sliding effortlessly into a new imperialism. It conflates armed and ethical success, munitions and morality. If this is a victory for civilisation, I would hate to see what defeat looks like.


- George Monbiot, The Guardian.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
16:05 / 15.11.01
quote:Originally posted by The Miser's Beautiful Daughter:
Don't let's get all carried away, now, people. Women in power don't automatically become saintly, sweet-hearted, vengeance-free folks like Galadriel from 'Lord of the Rings'.



Agreed. But RAWA is NOT at the table AT ALL at the moment. It would be nice if women were represented in some way.

And I know this is going to open up a whole new can of worms, but RAWA is operating from a feminist perspective, which is very different from the "might makes right" woman fearing/hating of both the Taliban and the Northern Alliance so, while no body is perfect I do believe that a hypothetical RAWA governing body would be at the very least more humane and more interested in the rights of ALL individuals, rather than in the rights of their specific groups.

No group is a panacea for anything, but the feminist perspective BY DEFINITION allows for less of a hierarchal dynamic and more of an inclusive one.
 
 
MastahBlastah
23:41 / 15.11.01
Well, duh!

Has it dawned on anyone that the biggest victims of this war are the women. How many women in Afghanistan went to bed last night crying over husbands/sons/fathers who they'll never see again.

I doubt any accurate statistics are available, but I'll bet that women are a bigger majority in this country than ever other.

Certainly while RAWA would be more humane in running the country than an alternative, that's not going to happen. Not to say that's right.

The good news is that whatever fault or politcs might intervene...no way the U.S. or Britain is going to permit a situation where our new buddies, the NA will be allowed to indulge their excesses. Some sort of rule of law with fundemental human rights guarantee will be installed. Hopefully to be enforced by the UN.

The bad news is that this will likely be done without input from RAWA or any other appropriate voice from the majority of people in the country!
 
 
Naked Flame
11:00 / 16.11.01
From everything I've heard of RAWA they're just what the place needs. INteresting point re their ethnicity.

They kept educating girls and providing health care under the Taliban: they kept filming and all their activities (at least that they've publicised) were anti-war, pro-peace, the only initial exception being that they were originally opposed to Russian occupation and fought that 'by any means necessary.'

No Western journalist has uncovered any recent history of violence or anything dodgy.

Can any other group say the same?
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
08:57 / 24.11.01
My POV, for what it's worth. I loathe the way the US has twisted reality in order to achieve an eye for an eye.

First, bin Laden (presumably, have they released any evidence yet?) kills a whole bunch of people. Which is a Bad Thing no matter what your view on the US' foreign policy. A whole bunch of people want the person responsible caught and tried, which is fine. When the prime suspect is tracked down to Afghanistan, the Taliban (known Bad People) will not (cannot?) extradite.

The US then decides that this is justification enough to send in troops (which it is not. As far as i know, extradition is not a legal duty, certainly not to a country with the death penalty. And it sure as hell isn't an act of war). through the convenient, not to mention emotionally loaded, concept of "war on terrorism" (as if) they manage to twist it into a war on the Taliban.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm glad the Taliban are being driven out of power. But we're employing a lesser evil to defeat a greater one, and if we're not brutally honest about it we will forget this. We are removing the government of a country because we do not like the way they behave, and because they stand between us and a suspected criminal.

To compound matter, this "home of the brave" then gets other people to fight it's war in it's stead (again), taking only the smallest risks.

And where do we go from here? Looks like we've replaced one opressive regime with one that's not much better (and having done all the fighting, the NA will want the lions share of power, no doubt about that). After, what, 20 years of fighting people, there's not going to many nice balanced liberal people around, never mind in any kind of position to govern. Which means we will have a duty to step in again, if need be. i just hope we remember that.

As for what remains of the Taliban, we will have to find as many of them as we can, and neutralise them one way or another. Euphemistically, if necessary. The last thing we want is another situation like what's left of Yugoslavia, two halves hating each others guts, and just waiting for the UN to give up before picking up where they left off.

Christ, what a mess.
 
  
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