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Dream help

 
 
Seth
13:59 / 20.07.02
Hey y'all. I wouldn't mind some help interpreting a pretty fucked up dream I had a few months back (4th March, to be exact). It may be more than one strung together. Ask any questions if you need stuff clarifying.

I am in some kind of exaggerated Albert Square (purely as an observer). The tension between Phil Mitchell and Steve has become murderous. Steve attacks Phil, thinks he has the upper hand for a second, but Phil responds with knives and meat cleavers. A badly injured Steve tries to escape out into the rain. Phil follows him in slow motion, and dispatches him with a meat cleaver to the back of the neck/shoulder area. The blows fall in realistic ways, not the clean body blows you might expect from films. While this takes place, the rest of the residents of the Square are in a party. Steve is killed, and hidden in a basement by Phil.

The rest of the Square go looking for Steve, assisted by Phil, who pretends to be concerned and on their side. A number of them go into the cellar to search. Phil walks behind them, and kills Mark Fowler with knives. I do not remember how or if he attacks the others. The dream closes with Phil putting Steve's body into an upright position in a car, to hide the body by setting light to the automobile. I think I wake at this point - it's an awful image, one man acting out his psychotic fantasies without other people's knowledge or reprisal.

I return to dreaming. I am now standing outside Iona Abbey (although the island is much smaller and flatter than I remember, seemingly bleached of some of its character and wild aspects). Mull has been developed - a town has spread to nearly the shore on reclaimed land, and here and there bridges connect the two. There are only a couple of metres of channel left between the two. The town is a bustling little community, with a largish modern church built in beige stone on the sea front, very near the abbey. I feel sad, that the character of the place seems to have been robbed by the development.

I turn and walk back into the abbey. There are people in the book/shop, which now doubles as a coffee shop/foyer. I sit with them. They seem Rabbinic, Jewish. At this point the scene is hazy and difficult to remember. Knowledge seems to be downloaded - I may wake up and return to this place with new knowledge (or enter a different sphere of awareness).

I know the Nazis are coming, although they feel far more horrible. I see a montage of horrible images or execution and torture, one remembered peacemeal of an old lady meeting with a nasty, unremembered fate.

Finally, images settle into a relationship between a young English poet and his oriental (probably Chinese) wife. They have a tender, sweet relationship in the 1940s. They are both in a shop (perhaps a barber's). She leaves first, and eventualy he stands up from reading/looking in his book and makes to walk out. He is interrupted by a man wearing black leather and small circular glasses walking into the shop (he looks like the cliche Gestapo official from Raiders of the Lost Ark, only somehow twisted and far nastier than any man has a right to be). He is surrounded by soldiers. They all wear shiny black leather, with black clothes underneath.

The Gestapo official starts to ask the poet questions. At this point I enter the poet, although I have a perspective that seems to be at once inside him and slightly external. The Gestapo asks if I have time to speak with him. I say yes, perhaps genuinely surprised that he's obviously going to question me, perhaps being prepared for it (the two opinions seem to tally up with my simultaneous perspectives - the former belongs to the poet, the latter to me). I am identified with him, but allowed a knowledge of what is to come... the impending atrocities (although this seems to be using historic imagery in order to tell an amplified, symbolic story).

I sit with him in the sun. At first we seem to be in a sunny town centre. The poet is incredibly naive, gentle, honest and genuine. He smiles, is genuinely horrified by the question about whether he is a spy, or knows any spies. The questioning continues half remembered. He is asked a series of questions relating to the possessions the poet has on him. I can remember that he has a colouring book, a book of old fashioned erotic images, and a communist/socialist pamphlet (the Gestapo imagery seems to be archetypal, blending in witchhunts, McCarthyism, the Spanish Inquisition, etc). All the while I/the poet jokes with the Gestapo official, as though he understands that I could never be a threat. The part of me with the external perspective knows what will happen. One by one the poet is scrupulously, naively, stupidly honest about each of his possessions and his political leanings. He is utterly harmless (apart from his ideology), the official knows this, they both laugh and joke about how stupid and pointless the interrogation seems. They stand up, and suddenly they are no longer in the town centre but in a war torn ruined and deserted township. The buildings are made from a sandy beige stone, doorways are partially blocked with sandbags, windows are ragged blackened holes.

The camera pulls back to a distance - the Gestapo pulls out an old fashioned pistol and shoots the poet in the head. The camera pulling back indicates I am no longer inside the poet, but I am seeing this from the perspective of a girl. She is wearing a beige jumper, with long wavey brown hair. She does not appear to be the poet's wife in every detail, but seems identified with her (her apearance is more like Minnie Driver). I seemed to see the exeuction from her perspective - she is horrified (I do not know if she knows the poet), turns and runs. The soldiers give chase (but not the official). She is an incredibly fast runner. They fire off shots which narrowly miss her, the chase spins round many tight turns. They almost have her, when she vaults through an open window. However, she has miscalculated, and falls many feet below into darkness, landing a second later with a sickening thud. The window lead onto a shaft or basement. I know she is badly injured, and will not be able to evade capture.

The scene shifts. She has been pushed against a broken window frame, and is pained, gasping for air. She seems unharmed from the fall, but when she pulls back from the frame she is horribly tortured in her upper body. Knives, shrapnel, fragments of wood, glass, and cleavers jut out from her at awful angles. As she moves back, the soldiers can be seen. They pull the weapons out of her and strap her to a chair.

The camera focuses on her face in close up, looking blank, as though her consciousness has retreated for her own saftey, so is less able to feel the torture. Her expression is fixed and stricken. She is in shock, and her pale complexion is becoming more and more flecked with blood. The camera pulls back, the footage of the soldiers sped up while she is fixed in place. They labour around her with cleavers and knives in high speed, cutting at her arms, which are laid out flat on two tables. She is fixed in time, a constant, her arms being slowly cut into sections, worked from the fingertips to her forearms, elbows and shoulders, being cut apart slowly and in sections. They are dicing her. The camera pulls back further, and as they chop off the final stumps of her shoulders they slowly decapitate her, blood staining her beige jumper. She is an armless, headless trunk, even sections of her torso removed when the head and arms met her body, as though killing her was not enough and they had to go further. This is where I wake up, perhaps retreating from the image. It is horrible, seen in vivid, graphic detail. She is consious until the decapitiation, seemingly conscious through it.
 
 
grant
15:25 / 22.07.02
Should I recognize Phil Mitchell and Mark Fowler?

first glancing blow: forces of wildness and community in jeopardy from forces of violence and order. The walls are closing in (basement, new development, window onto shaft) in a sense of marching onward. Creative souls unable to deal with anger & loss?
 
 
Seth
16:30 / 22.07.02
They're characters from Eastenders, the most popular British soap outside of Big Brother. My dreams can get really tacky: one involved Scott Anderson from fucking Hollyoaks for God's sake.
 
 
Sebastian
18:29 / 22.07.02
Expressionless, sorry buddy, but I finally went twice through the piece above and became even more convinced that only you can decide what it does mean specifically, if anything. I can make general comments anyway on some aspects you may have probably already identified, so forgive if I make redundant observations, but also bear in mind that dreams can not help but through being redundat themselves also.

What still gets to call my attention after the two readings are the so many changes in perspective through the different sequences. In Dreams and the Growth of Personality: Expanding Awareness in Psychotherapy by Ernest Lawrence Rossi, I remember reading that perceptual shifts during a dream herald important changes in personality, as if the "self" were literally changing and evaluating different character suits, where even the "camera" becomes a camera-self with its own rightful judgments, impressions, expectations and "mind". It is pretty much interpreted as a self-synthesis process, which I think Rossi calls psychosynthesis.

Such psychosynthesis may involve literally touring -and forcing- the dreamer to experience all those perceptual shifts, positions, and camera moves described. The key value here for this process of self-synthesis and integration are indeed the gut feelings you expereinced through all your evaluations, and is most evidently exposed in the self/poet sequence, probably in the phrase At this point I enter the poet, although I have a perspective that seems to be at once inside him and slightly external., where about a single "empirical" event you afforded two separate, whole perceptions of different selves. In a sense, it can very well be interpreted as your "mind" (unconscious mind if you want) as gathering important feedback from "you". The whole situational disguise and overall puzzle is the only way through which the "mind" can work effectively, bypassing our waking identities that have no clue, and are kept busy musing over the empirical details.

Back to a strict interpretation, I hardly ever interpret my dreams, unless they are pretty concise on whatever I was pursuing in waking life at the time I had them, but even then I take them with a grain of salt.
 
 
Seth
19:04 / 22.07.02
Thanks, grant and Sebastian. I haven't been able to ignore this dream, for three main reasons. Firstly, the sheer horror of the final scene, which severly effected the whole of March (I wasn't even slightly myself the next day). It was just the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. Secondly, the dream brings together two of my recurrent dream images; ninety percent of my dreams take place in a town by the sea (symbolic of the unconscious, numinous, the unknown); and probably thirty percent of my dreams involve the military, into which category the Gestapo also seem to fit (my main association with this is the loss of personal control in the military machine, of being controlled).

Thirdly, Iona has come to mean a lot to me. I've been there around five or six times now, most of which have been a kind of annual pilgrimage to spend a week there. This year is the first year in the last four or five when I won't have been able to go. One thing I've realised since transcribing the dream earlier in the year is that the Abbey was facing the wrong way in the dream. The main entrance faces west, away from the shore. In the dream the entrance faced the beach to the east. Another interesting detail is that the beach on which I stood lamenting the development of Mull was Traigh Ban, where Viking raiders massacred the monks hundreds of years ago. In terms of alignments, the direction I faced in the dream draws a straight line through Traigh Ban, the Abbey, St Oran's Relig and Columba's Bay. Thematically the line is descriptive of Iona's Christian history, from Columba's landing after his journey from Ireland, to the mixture of Christianity with Druidism in the story of St Oran, to the establishing of the religious structure with the building and maintaining of the Abbey, to the death of the monks on the beach. Turning back from the beach and facing in the reverse direction down a line pointing to the past seems to be highly significant in retrospect. Or am I reaching?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:53 / 22.07.02
Off the top of my head....

Phil: violent impulse, fury unrestrained by ethicality, unfettered by intellect. Low cunning.

Mark: a being possesed of the same impulses but these impulses overlaid with feeling. He's trying to reach a state of being beyond Philness, but the inner Phil rises up and destroys him.

Iona defiled: Materialism creates a ruin, a skeletal thing devoid of spirit. Guardians of wisdom remain like relics, oracles; visiting only to warn. Do not permit the temple to be invaded.

Poet and woman: feeling, sensitivity, vulnerability. The poet and the woman are two parts of the same organism. Society destroys the sensitive: either attacking ideology (shot in the head) or destroying the means of expression, of action (the woman's arms being taken from her piece by piece).
 
 
illmatic
22:48 / 22.07.02
Hi there
I don't think I've a great deal to add to this - other than to echo Sebestian's post, that it's the feelings you get in dreams that are important as well as the symbols (ie. your sadness on Iona = not going there this year?) - and to say I bond with you on the occurence on the sea as a symbol. It's occured to me frequently over the years in most of my most powerful dreams. I take it to be a multi faceted symbol that represents - or not even represents, that IS the unconcious, death, the womb etc. (tho' it may be very different for you, of course).I can understand how Nazis would occur in this sort of way as well.
All the violent stuff really reminds of a certain sort of dream I used to have but I can't refer to 'em, sorry, lost in old dream diaries somewhere. From what I remember they involved violent imagery but without much emotional tone, and always thru the medium of a TV. They seemed very strange and distant and lacked the emotional punch and ease-of-comprehension of other dreams so i didn't pay them much attention at the time. How did you feel when watching it, as opposed to afterward?
A hypothesis: Maybe violent stuff like this is just afloat in our unconcious with all the other bizarre shit and just washes ashore occasionally as we start to pay our dreams more attention. We distance ourselved from it through shifts of perspective, whatever?
I wouldn't worry about it unless it's recurring regularly (ie. night after night). And in my experience, if any symbol or scene is recurring regularly, it may puzzle you at first but you will understand it eventually.
I don't know if any of this helps with your experience but thanks for stimulating some interesting musing.
 
 
Seth
16:27 / 23.07.02
Thanks, everyone. Some very useful stuff in all your posts, as well as some excellent stuff from Carl Jung's Individual Dream Symbols as they Relate to Alchemy.

Illmatic: The feeling experienced in the original dream was a slowly building fate and dread as the narrative progressed, climaxing in utter fucking horror, struck to the core of my heart. The feeling lasted for weeks, but it definitely originated within the dream. I can't dismiss it.
 
 
Naked Flame
18:21 / 23.07.02
I think there's also some connection with the destruction and re-creation of the body (the old shamanic chestnut) except your dream omits the re-construction part. I'd also second the psychosynthesis theory, except that I'd also suggest that this was an aspect of your magical consciousness- a reflex response to a dangerous situation, to outwit and outflank the forces opposing you.

I don't have a lot to go on, but my sense is that you or someone you love came under some kind of astral attack- bad vibes beamed in from somewhere- and you averted RL catastrophe by metabolising the hate and pain. Based on that I'd expect the sense of anxiety to pass with time- but it reads to me like you took a bullet for someone and you treat yourself pretty gently for the moment.

I may, however, be totally off beam- you'll have to be the judge.
 
 
illmatic
20:33 / 23.07.02
Hi again
didn't mean to play down the importance/power of your experience for ya - just refecting on some stuff you reminded me of.
 
  
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