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The Legion of Barbelith

 
 
Thjatsi
23:23 / 19.07.02
The impact of science and technology on warfare is one of the more frequently discussed issues in the Laboratory. Specifically, the community seems interested in technology granting individual soldiers abilities beyond that of the average man. However, responses like these give me the impression that most of you are unhappy with our governments’ recent proposals:

Rizla Year Zero
Sounds like some 12 year old video game fanatic's government sponsored wank-fest to me.

invisible_al
Nope my problem is spending this sort of STUPID money on tech toys when they could be spending the money on something else. Even something military, I'm not fussy.

Gray Area
Conjures up the amusing mental image of a bunch of soldiers huddled up under fire, one clutching a mobile phone and telling the others he's still on hold with Microsoft's technical help hotline.

Lurid Archive
You've go to to take all this with a pinch of salt. Arms firms and the US government love to talk up their R&D. It's actually a scam to give lots of money to our friends in the private sector while at the same time making politicians look tough.

Nick
This looks like another load of fair-weather crap. Sure, it'll provide an edge some of the time. But it's a long way from Steel's armour or anything like that.

Apparently, a lot of you think these proposals are a waste of time and resources. Perhaps you even believe that you could do a better job at this than our massively funded military organizations, staffed by a group of people that know an awful lot about warfare.

Well, maybe you can. I propose that we design our own super-soldiers, the Legion of Barbelith, if you will. Here are the rules of the game. Pretty much any type of augmentation is up for use. You can use drugs, AI, mental techniques, hormones, wearable computers, surgery, robotics, genetic engineering, or any number of other methods. However, it has to be the sort of technology that will be available in the next five to ten years. I’ll start:

Genetic engineering has recently created a super mouse with increased strength. A promoter for the gene that creates insulin-like growth hormone (Igf1) leads to a minimum of a 40% increase in muscle mass. This technology was originally developed for people with muscular dystrophy, and officials are now beginning to worry about it’s use in sports events. While there do seem to be an awful lot of places on the internet selling Igf1 in pill form, the impression I get from the articles is that you need to have the cells expressing it. So, the best approach for this method would probably be gene therapy. The negative aspect of this augmentation is that the mice using it apparently die from abnormal enlargement of the heart. Luckily, the variant mIgf1 seems to avoid this problem.

I think an augmented ability to use oxygen would complement our soldier’s strength nicely. Fortunately, we can accomplish this without the difficult, and sometimes dangerous, use of gene therapy. The protein Erythropoietin has been used in sports recently to increase red blood cell counts. The downside of this technique is that it increases blood viscosity. This means that the soldier will be more likely to get a stroke or heart attack. However, I would point out that this also means our soldier is less likely to bleed to death. The risks of using Erythropoietin mean that the protein would have to be administered by medical professionals, which might not be financially workable.

Let’s give our soldier increased visual acuity too. Current eye surgery can correct visual problems, but a group of researchers is also working on a way to use this method to give people better than 20/20 vision. The upper limit to this surgery will probably be 20/10, but subjects will apparently have an enhanced ability to see at night as well. The only downside is that laser eye surgery does make mistakes occasionally.

I have one more modification proposal, which I suggest with some reservation. Science has had the ability to surgically remove the human body’s ability to feel pain for some time now. In extreme cases, such as a very painful cancer, doctors have severed portions of the spinal cord. This method isn’t in very wide use, but combined with new methods of surgery, and work on spinal cord regeneration, it might be doable. The best case scenario would be a slight cut followed by moderate spinal cord re-growth, leading to nerves that could still feel pain, but at a significantly diminished capacity. This wouldn’t alter the head’s ability to feel pain, but if you catch a bullet in the face, pain isn’t too much of an issue anyway.

The question you’re probably asking right now is, “Who the hell are we going to do this to anyway”. It is my understanding that the special forces frequently reject applicants based on visual problems. So, for starters, we can place anyone who wants into an elite fighting unit, but does not meet the vision requirements, into a difficult training program. Those who make it through would be given corrective eye surgery, mIgf1 gene therapy, and administered EPO blood doping before missions and maybe before training exercises. Spinal cord surgery would be optional.

Participation in the soldier augmentation project would also be optional, and anyone involved would be fully informed of the risks involved. Especially the headcases who want their spinal cord placed under the knife.

Overall this seems like a pretty expensive operation, considering that they aren’t dodging bullets or lifting cars. But, I’m sure you’ll be able to help out.

So, what are your ideas, and what are the advantages and disadvantages on a biological, social, financial, and ethical level?
 
 
cusm
23:51 / 19.07.02
Replace our soldier entirely with a remote controlled killer robot. That's where we're going with these toys anyway, right?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:41 / 20.07.02
I suppose the biggest ethical problem for me is that you'd be employing a number of novel technologies. They may stand up in the short-term but there could be unpleasant or dangerous longer-term effects.
 
 
Sax
20:17 / 20.07.02
What happens to them when they leave the army? Because I don't want some genetically modified meat-head drinking in my local pub, that's for sure.
 
 
w1rebaby
00:07 / 21.07.02
I agree with cusm. Killer robots are so the way to go. That's not just because of my robot-building bias.

The advantage of killer robots is that you can define them as a munition, and thus get away from any tricky moral problems. Imagine. You have a number of small infantry robots, which you airdrop on an area. They hit the ground, unfold and shoot the shit out of anyone who happens to be there, including any civilians (if soldiers have trouble telling the difference, I can't see a military bot being able to do it). But if they're defined in the same category as a bomb, that's just "collateral damage", "regrettable but unavoidable civilian casualties". No responsibility. Soldiers, however augmented, are going to be seen to be moral entities.

That's clearly the way military policy is going in the West. Infantry are the people you send in when there's no other option. Pretty soon, you won't need them for urban or rough-terrain combat, except to mop up.
 
 
w1rebaby
00:18 / 21.07.02
Having said that, humans are the best planning agents we have right now. I see human soldiers as being directors of robot troops, hidden away in armoured units, either conducting online warfare through encrypted channels or setting up failsafe programs should those channels be jammed.

For that, I reckon IVs of smart drugs and stimulants to keep them awake, working and task-focussed (instead of maybe thinking about the ethics of what they do). Fuck, just ask a few hardcore hackers what they usually consume. There'd be a lot of pizza there too.

Useful soldiers in the modern army are smart. One of my favourite quotes comes from a sergeant interviewed in the Gulf. The interviewer asked him, sitting on a tank, if he was "nervous" about going into battle. He thought for a bit and said "no, not nervous, maybe a touch apprehensive". There are the stereotypical thick squaddies out there, but in practice if they can be replaced by robots they will be.
 
 
rizla mission
08:34 / 21.07.02
I think the world would be a better place all round if military budgets were used to build giant robots who could then fight each other, either to solve major international conflicts, or just for a bit of a laugh. Maybe.
 
 
Sax
09:51 / 21.07.02
I second that. Giant robots, one to a country, and a huge boxing ring, perhaps on Birmingham.
 
 
Thjatsi
08:50 / 22.07.02
I suppose the biggest ethical problem for me is that you'd be employing a number of novel technologies. They may stand up in the short-term but there could be unpleasant or dangerous longer-term effects.

Certainly. Gene therapy is just starting out, and people participating in procedures much less drastic than the one I'm proposing have died. EPO is a recent development, and a number of athletes have already lost their lives using it. Laser eye surgery has had its share of problems, and while my eyesight is completely awful, I'm not going to be signing up for it during the next three years. Spinal cord surgery is a death sentence in its present form, and I haven't proposed anything that changes that. None of these procedures are anywhere near safe. However, not having these augmentations on the battlefield could cost a soldier his life. How do we balance the risk of death from a bullet with the risk of death from heart failure?

What happens to them when they leave the army? Because I don't want some genetically modified meat-head drinking in my local pub, that's for sure.

This raises the similar problem of, "Are we currently keeping track of ex-special forces operatives, and should we?" Does anyone know about the policies regarding this issue in western countries?

While I was gone, a small group of madmen hijacked this thread and drove it off the road, into the field of, "Dude, giant killer robots rule!" What follows is my attempt to put us back on track, without moving away from our newly adopted theme.

Unfortunately, I don't have a reference for this one, but a few months ago I was watching the television and they had a remote controled mini-helicopter with a camera attached. The robot's purpose was to be able to get decent overhead camera angles for moviemakers with a tight budget. My first thought was to take this robot and stick a gun on it. Unfortunately, I couldn't think of a way to resolve the issues of ammunition, weight, and recoil. However, if we stuck a small explosive inside the robot, and constructed it such that it's body broke into sharp pieces of shrapnel upon detonation, I think we might have something.

I know it isn't battlebots on an international level like you guys wanted, but I hope it will do.
 
 
Sebastian
11:23 / 22.07.02
Thiazi, have you got an estimated budget for this? Lets say the standard model of soldier you are aiming to, how much would it cost?, supposing you have already found the one smart guy on who it would be profitable to go forward (I just can't get the thought out of my mind of the super-soldier chap crashing his bike on the road when going to buy some bread for Sunday lunch).
 
 
higuita
13:25 / 22.07.02
I don't know if it would be something you could incorporate into a super-soldier, but I was reading a book called The Hinge Factor recently, and one of the battles it covered was in German-occupied East Africa (I forget where precisely).
There were a few German officers and a sparse force of lightly armed Africans, but they managed to rout a large British invasion force on the beach with the assistance of bees.
With the usual cak-handedness of the British forces, the early attack went badly. When established, the beachhead managed to disturb the local flora with heavy machine gun fire. This smashed the bees hives and they went for the guys who smelled of fear - the British. One bloke got the VC for continuing to signal despite being stung 96 times. This was so unusual a defeat that the Times even claimed, in all seriousness, that the Germans were using specially trained attack bees.
Perhaps some use of pheremones to drop onto the enemy so that, when combined with human sweat, the local wildlife sets upon them? Try hiding in caves with suppurating mossie bites everywhere.

And as for using Birmingham as a big battle-bot ring, bugger off Sax, or I shall suggest using the whole of yorkshire for my scent testing. It's noisy enough around here with all the bloody construction (and they're still not knocking the Rotunda down - it's attained some level of architectural ironic kitsch, for god's sake) without having a replay of mekagodzilla vs mekamothra overhead.

Sorry Thiazi - there was a point in there somewhere.
It's a silly idea anyway.

The Japanese would always win.
 
 
w1rebaby
14:09 / 22.07.02
remote controled mini-helicopter with a camera attached. The robot's purpose was to be able to get decent overhead camera angles for moviemakers with a tight budget. My first thought was to take this robot and stick a gun on it.

There are Predator drones that mount Hellfire missiles. There are also things called "off-road mines" that are basically robots that sit there in a bush and fire missiles at tanks, detecting them with vibration and heat sensors.

There's been quite a lot of research into robot/remote controlled fighter planes, because a robot pilot can take G-forces that kill humans.
 
 
Fist of Fun
14:39 / 22.07.02
Come on - the answer is not only so obvious but in our own interests:
Killer robots controlled by highly trained humans.

And we all know how those humans would be tested and trained. Yup - Anyone who completes Halo on "Legendary" setting without breaking a sweat!

At last our generation could justify losing countless thousands of hours immersed in computer games. "Sorry Dad, but I'm trying to get into Sandhurst/ West Point / do my bit for homeland security."

Plus, placing "Computer Games" on your CV would make you seem sort of cool and dangerous rather than geeky. "Which games to I play? Sorry, that's classified information..."

OK, so it's not entirely guaranteed that we wouldn't hit civilians, but that risk could be minimised by points being deducted and maybe pay cuts?
 
 
grant
14:45 / 22.07.02
Killer robots that fly. They come in a variety of sizes and styles.

It's old news, now.

The next step will be miniaturizing them to the point where they're as small as dust - and just as mobile.
Clouds of surveillance and, potentially, aggressive weapons. (Think about the dust under your bed at home. Now imagine it with a brain. And it's trying to choke you.... Or imagine intelligent asbestos, or hunter-seekers programmed to eliminate white blood cells or trigger hormones in the body to create all sorts of medical problems.)

I'm also quite fascinated by LAN soldier stuff, now that I've been reading about it.
A regular guy with a suit that can sense whether water's drinkable, tell him where he is on the map, use infrared imaging (either on board or via satellite link) to see if there are unfriendlies about - or with built-in medical monitors that know whether he needs a life-saving shot of adrenaline, or whether he needs the fabric to heat up and tighten around a wound.
Make it bullet-proof and self-cooling, and you've got your soldier.

Oh, and give him one of these:

The bullets (at 20mm, more like grenades) have variable timed fuses, so the rangefinder can tell them when/where exactly to blow up, sending shrapnel *behind* bulletproof shelters.
 
 
grant
17:31 / 22.07.02
The "sling," of course, is for when you run out of the smart bullets.
 
 
Sebastian
11:57 / 23.07.02
Uhmm, where is the trigger for the 20mm?
 
 
Fengs for the Memory
12:36 / 23.07.02
It's thought operated - Kill.
 
 
w1rebaby
17:57 / 23.07.02
Ridley Scott should sue. Not as many rounds, though.
 
 
gentleman loser
23:32 / 23.07.02
Prediction, In fifty years:

Robots soldiers in the West (because we don't want to risk actual humans, do we!) Conventional air forces are already dead in 2002 (the Air Force and Navy just don't want to admit it, Top Gun movies and all that. Robots aren't sexy cash cows.).

Disposable genetically engineered clone soldiers everywhere else (because they'll be dirt cheap after the technology is developed).

Who will win? Your guess is a good as mine.
 
  
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