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Why is Barbelith a haven for Dorothy L Sayers freaks?

 
  

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Goodness Gracious Meme
15:17 / 18.07.02
Two points here, one being that I want to talk about Sayers' novels and why people like them, and two, outside here I don't know anyone who's even heard of her, so why does there seem to be a clustering of fans 'in here'? That's my perception anyway, am I right or wrong?

For me there's definitely a glamour thing which I find slightly embarrassing to admit to, going on for me with Lord Peter Wimsey and co. Trying to think when I first got into them, I have a feeling they date from my obsessive PGWoodhouse/Evelyn Waugh period, when I pretty much gobbled anything about aristocratic english types. There's a lot more too it now, but I'm pretty sure that this was the starting point...

So what's the big deal for you?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:26 / 18.07.02
Oh, I don't have enough time. Damn. Just a few superficial things...

1) DLS doesn't patronise her readers
2) I want to be Harriet Vane
3) I want to be Lord Peter Wimsey
4) I quite possibly want to be Bunter as well
5) I think the Vane/Wimsey relationship impossibly romantic

I think the cluster of fans probably comprises you, me and Haus... personal encounter with DLS stems from parental library (which consists of my father's books, my mother's books, and Dorothy L Sayers...)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
15:26 / 18.07.02
Oh, 6) I find the Bunter/Wimsey relationship impossibly romantic

Very important...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:37 / 18.07.02
Good God yes. The bit in "Whose Body" where Wimsey is angst-ridden about his findings and goes into full shellshock mode, thinking the traffic on Piccadilly is the sound of enemy guns, and Butler comforts him with "It's all right, sir. Those are our guns."

"Are there? Are they, Bunter?"

"Yes sir. You get some sleep."

The actual version, which I have not the energy to look up, is even sweeter.

So, yes. To an extent, because I identify hideously with Lord Peter - a foppish lover of rare books and irrelevant quotations, with a mind full of horror and solutions to other people's horrors. I want to be him when I grow up.

Also, because the books are never about the crime. That's why the short stories suck. The books are about Wimsey, and Parker, and Harriet Vane, and the way they negotiate their own worth (Wimsey is a shell-shocked nobody, a younger son of whom nothing is expected but the pointless vacillation of Death Bredon, his dope-dealing darker self, attempting to make sense of his failure to die in battle as was expected of himself by himself, Parker the stolid member of the midde classes who solves cases in his dreams and ultimately injects a strain of honest decency into the largely pointless Wimseys, Harriet who is tormented by her desire for Wimsey, but her fear of what Wimsey represents), and a host of other, genuinely lovely, characters. To focus even for a second on who killed whom is to miss the point absolutely. DLS was drawing a map by which the twentieth century could be redeemed by love.

Yes, I'm drunk. What made you ask that?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
20:52 / 18.07.02
Oh no. nothing really.

The ten-line sentence might be a bit of a hint. (as is the barely concealed longing for a life of Wimsy )

This is fascinating, and i wish i'd done this earlier. See for me, I think part of the appeal then and now is a kind of anthropological (??) interest. I started reading the books after seeing the tv adaptation of Gaudy Night, and seem to remember being struck by the fantastic alien-ness of it all... the aristocratic but nervy sleuth, the cloistered academic community, the devoted manservant... I remember ( and am probably wildly exaggerating, due to my overheated teenage memories!) scenes of dons swishing around Oxford from the adaptation especially vividly...

I still don't particularly find them characters to identify with. aspirational posssssibly. Strange and alien, exotic and fascinating? definitely. Although, having said that, i might be talking tosh, as there are definitely aspects of the relationship between Wimsey and Vane that I have related to my own situations at times (god. shoot me now for admitting this. and i'm not even drunk. )

Gradually I've come to love the books, and the complexity of the characters. I think there's also a touch of something Kit-Kat mentioned in the comfort reading thread; that alot of people's picks are sets of novels. I love the evolving world that DLS creates, for exmaple how the tensions and interrelations between Wimsey and his family gradually become a part of the picture, how we gradually understand more and more the peculiar relationship bewteen Wimsey and Bunter.

Something I love about the series as a whole is the way in which Sayers explores and destabilises relationships and the power balance, the ones in which she's most interested do not play out according to expectations... between W/V and W/B there's give and take, over the course of the novels the 'upper hand' seems to switch about (you knew I was going to get that word in now, didn't you). The relationship between Peter and Harriet, especially , seems to go into all sorts of interesting questions around control, and restriction.

I could talk about this literally all night. but i want to hear from other people.

and Kat, take your point about it only being you me and haus. That's two more people than i know outside here, it'll do as a clique for me! Curious now, do you two know many other right-thinking types?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
21:20 / 18.07.02
one other thing, then will leave this.

it's. so. slashy.

rah!

Ok. two things. I think in parts its extremely sexy. and yet deals with sex in all kinds of ways, most of which are pretty critical.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:11 / 19.07.02
Curious now, do you two know many other right-thinking types?

Well, the Aged Ps obviously, and their friend Rosanna, but apart from that I can't think of anyone IRL (practically everyone on the Girls' Own list seems to be a fan though). I did think my sister had read them, especially as she went through a Wodehouse phase, but she says that she got too obsessed with Reginald Hill's Dalziel and Pascoe series to read any other detective books - very unenlightened.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:39 / 19.07.02
My beard is a lover of Lord Peter Wimsey, but the concentration on Barbelith seems very high - I'm sure others than we have spoken in praise here before.
 
 
The Strobe
19:47 / 19.07.02
I feel I'd better investigate some DLS - my mother likes her a fair bit, and there's probably (iirc) a fair few of the books floating around the house. I'm sure we've got a few. Where to begin? What's worth it? (For those of us who don't know yet...)
 
 
Cat Chant
11:04 / 20.07.02
I have an ex-lesbian-separatist friend who says one of the reasons she likes DLS - though she goes off her at Busman's Honeymoon - is that Harriet/Peter is so clearly a lesbian relationship. And I do think the relationship is oddly genderfucky. Or maybe it's just the sustained attempt to eroticize equality (though of course once they start shagging that changes a bit.)

Also, I have a disgusting fondness for the long-fingered family-portraited slavering aristo-worship of DLS for Lord P. Even though I know it's wrong. I too wish to caress my first editions of fucking-I-don't-even-know-who with the hands that you can see in the family portrait for the last two hundred years. My dunderheaded brother hasn't got 'em, but I am absurdly proud of having inherited the Wimsey hands...

dear God...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:44 / 20.07.02
I love DLS. I think one of the best things about Lord Peter Death Brendon Whimsey, apart form his unfeasibly rockin' name, is the way that huge intellect is concealed under a perfectly realised facade of Upper-Class-Twit. Quality.

What else? Oh, the general forward-thinkingness of the books-- politically they just seem way ahead of their time.
 
 
Yagg
21:31 / 20.07.02
Cripes. I forgot all about Lord Peter and company. Used to listen to the radio adaptations. Read some of the books years ago. Now I have to go and read them again, dammit! I'll get back to you on this one.
 
 
Persephone
02:08 / 21.07.02
Hey, Myopic is crammed with Dorothy Sayers books. So I got three novels in one volume and have just finished Whose Body?

Well, I liked it very much; it's just the sort of book that I like. But I like this sort of book for all shameful reasons, which I wouldn't normally bring up here.

I mean, it's not for the subtext.
 
 
Cat Chant
07:00 / 21.07.02
Tell us the shameful reasons, Persephone!

I seem to remember that Whose Body? is one of the relatively angst-free ones, so you might discover more reasons for loving The Existential Aristocrat as you read on...
 
 
Persephone
13:30 / 21.07.02
Er, well, you know. Because not so deep down, I would like to have a butler. And worse, the right sort of butler. And so on.

By the way, any danger in my reading out of order? Am twenty pages into Murder Must Advertise, which I really love having been in advertising myself. No one hardly gets advertising right, but here it is:

"Your story is, of course, that Dairyfields 'Green Pastures' Margarine is everything that the best butter ought to be and only costs ninepence a pound. And they like a cow in the picture."

"Why? Is it made of cow-fat?"

"Well, I daresay it is, but you mustn't say so. People wouldn't like the idea. The picture of the cow suggests the taste of butter, that's all. And the name --Green Pastures-- suggests cows, you see."

"It suggests Negroes to me," said Mr. Bredon. "The play, you know."

"You mustn't put Negroes in the copy," retorted Mr. Ingleby. "Nor, of course, religion. Keep Psalm 23 out of it. Blasphemous."

"I see. Just something about 'Better than Butter and half the price.' Simple appeal to the pocket."

"Yes, but you mustn't knock butter. They sell butter as well."

"Oh!"

"You can say it's as good as butter."

"But in that case," objected Mr. Bredon, "what does one find to say in favour of butter? I mean, if the other stuff's as good and doesn't cost so much, what's the argument for buying butter?"

"You don't need an argument for buying butter. It's a natural, human instinct."
 
 
Cat Chant
17:50 / 21.07.02
Persephone: am so jealous of you getting to read Murder Must Advertise for the first time, is work of genius.

And yes, I too have butler-desire shame (and not judith butler. though obviously if she wanted to live in my house wearing a dinner jacket and, you know, bring me things on silver trays... Oh dear God. Excuse me while I just caress the patina on this first edition of Sappho with the Wimsey hands...)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:42 / 22.07.02
Murder Must Advertise is my absolute favourite. I have a lot of sympathy for Miss Meteyard in MMA as well. I find e.g. Busman's Honeymoon a bit tricky because of the awful intellectual trauma of the relationship power dynamics, but that's probably just me not being able to cope with relationship power dynamics... Also I think Busman's Honeymoon makes a lot of themes which run though the book a bit more explicit (eg the quotation contests with the jolly village inspector...). So, Paleface, don't for goodness' sake read that one first.

I don't want the butler (Bunter not really butler of course, just buttles at the appropriate moments...) but I definitely hanker after the lifestyle. And the library, and the capacious brain, and so on.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:44 / 22.07.02
Oh, re: order; it doesn't really matter that much I think - I read them all out of order. The ones you might want to read in order though are the Harriet Vane ones, which are

Strong Poison
Have His Carcase
Gaudy Night
Busman's Honeymoon.
 
 
Persephone
12:16 / 22.07.02
Oh, thanks! Gaudy Night is the third of the three, I will save that for later.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:25 / 22.07.02
This thread makes me *so* happy.

i love you all.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:56 / 22.07.02
"And I do think the relationship is oddly genderfucky. Or maybe it's just the sustained attempt to eroticize equality"

Yes! this is one of the things I find sexiest about sayers' writing. and quite exceptional, given its time. there's a suggestion on that an 'an uneasy balance/truce' (unstable? someting along those lines) being a desirable way to conduct a relationship, and an emphasis on near-constant flux being not a stage on the way to something lasting, but an end initself, that I really like.

And as for genderfucky, there's definitely a blurring or complicating of the gender of both of them, at various points during the novels peter is feminised, then hyper-masculinised, and i'm pretty sure this is mirrored in harriet.

"(though of course once they start shagging that changes a bit.) "

does it? oh dear, am going to have to reread busman's honeymoon now. darn it. have a feeling that even after sex enters the equation, and peter has to 'be gentle' with harriet, he finds that sex is remade for him in a way that's totally unexpected....

"and not judith butler. though obviously if she wanted to live in my house wearing a dinner jacket and, you know, bring me things on silver trays... Oh dear God."

not sure if i'm glad or not that I didn't have this image in my head when blue and i saw her speak in london recently.
 
 
alas
16:37 / 22.07.02
i love sayers, too. came to her through p.g wodehouse, which my children loved to listen to when they were smaller, and I find her so much smarter and more complex and radical. go dorothy.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:42 / 01.08.02
Does Peter have to 'be gentle' with Harriet though? I mean - yes he does, but I'm not sure that it's sexually gentle... I got the impression that the 'shabby tigers' were well and truly out of the picture in Busman's Honeymoon.

But in all other respects I agree with you.

Wretched Dorothy L Sayers, she can even make me (almost) wish to take up change-ringing.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:42 / 02.08.02
Ooh, I just bought the three they adapted for the BBC, I think all of the Harriet Vane's except for Busman's Honeymoon. Harriet Walter and Edward Petherbridge play the lead roles and they are absolutely wonderful. I ache to see more.
You can imagine my sheer delight at reading a philosophy of art text and suddenly finding a reference to Sayers in the middle of it. My housemates thought I was a freak, the babbling that emerged from my mouth!
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:55 / 17.09.02
digging this up to make a proposal:

dorothy l sayers is a gender radical and a racial reactionary. discuss, with reference to Have His Carcase.
 
 
Persephone
15:30 / 17.09.02
Oh, let me in! I have just started HHC, I can be done by the end of the week.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:57 / 18.09.02
Plums - yeah, she seems reactionary now, but in comparison with John Buchan she's almost, you know, liberal (for the 1930s...).

Am juat reading Margery Allingham (excellent, btw, thank you to whoever recommended her books to me) and one of her characters has little 'coloured' page boys, the hero refers to 'niggers' and a Gold Coast potentate is referred to as 'the coloured gentleman' and has to have his aeroplane painted gold, because it is better than silver. But unlike Greenmantle the book is good enough to make me forgice these sins while I am reading it (not afterwards though).

Actually I am slightly uncomfortable with my own use of the word 'potentate' above - does one ever refer to western European potentates? American oil potentates? (actually maybe one does in that case...)
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
18:00 / 18.09.02
It's not so much the language, which you're quite correct in saying is of it's time, so much as the way non-white characters are used. Am thinkning especially of HHC and the character of Luis da Soto, the lounge-lizard orchestra leader... there's a sustained refrain of, 'well the evidence doesn't seem to point to him, but you never know about these dusky people of confused nationality' etc etc...

I guessed i'm just naively surprised that work that's so far-seeing ,complex and downright controversial (for its time, and now, in the age of Bridget Jones) on gender subscribes to this kind of thing.

Having a 'feet of clay' moment and sulking, I guess.
 
 
kagemaru
20:29 / 18.09.02
Another Dorothy Leigh Sayers fan here.

Reasons I like her novels:
. there's some actual sense of humour in there
. the investigation is solid and honest (no dirty tricks played on the reader)
. lord Peter Wimsey has the good taste of freaking out when he realizes his hobby is sending people to the gallows
. the dialogue is simply incredible

There's humanity in those novels.
I can relate to that.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:24 / 19.09.02
I wouldn't have said that Sayers is controversial though. I agree that the Harriet/Peter relationship is more developed and more completely imagined than most other literary relationships, and that the characterisation and the portrayal of the relationship is quite radical in terms of portrayals of roles within relationships, and gender-identified roles within relationships, but I'm not sure whether that's quite enough to make DLS a gender radical, or controversial.

Agree about da Soto, but again, the book is good enough to make me forgive the sin while I am reading it.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:08 / 19.09.02
Perhaps you're right. I guess by radical I'm following Deva's friend's reading of H/P as a lesbian relationship. Or of H/P and P/B as being attempts to figure different power relations and dynamics within a relationship in a way that, as I say, I belive is still pretty radical today, especially given the genre. It tries to take account of traditional roles but also to imagine new and different ways of interrelating.

And then she starts going on about 'slinky people of confused nationality' and I get a bit pissed off. Probably just me.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:59 / 19.09.02
There are really two sides to the argument of DLS as a gender radical, both dependant on our perception of the time period. In some ways the 1920s/30s were particularly free with regards to gender and as is evident from the books Harriet is friends with such people. There was a definite bohemian edge to her relationships and the character breaks convention simply by taking a lover. This is an argument that supports DLS as a gender radical because she seems to have been quite aware of this aspect of culture during the period and throws her weight behind it in her novels.

On the other hand you can argue that DLS was not a gender radical because this kind of thing was quite widespread and she didn't try to push any of it further than it had already gone. I want her to be radical though so I refuse to take this any further.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:52 / 20.09.02
But I think that kind of thing is more radical in terms of sexual behaviour, not gender. Gah. Plums - hwat did you mean by gender radical?

Margery Allingham has definite feet of clay - I am really finding it hard to accept this in this book of hers, e.g. at one point the sensitive aristocratic detective says to his sister (fraught over the failure of a love affair) that what she needs is either a good cry or a good rape... !!!
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:01 / 24.09.02
agagagag. what I call 'hemingway syndrome'. was badgered by a friend into reading For Whom The Bell Tolls, and was finding it to be wonderful writing, much better and more complicated on masculinity than i'd expected. Really good up until the point where the girl who's been raped is led to the big strong white man, cause the wise woman leader of the gang 'knows' this is what she needs to 'cure' her.

i sympathise.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:39 / 26.11.02
I don't know if anyone's read Laurie King's Mary Russell books?? Basically they play with the idea of Sherlock Holmes marrying a student in later life. They are very well written and clearly owe a lot to Sayers. In the third book there's a wonderful moment when Mary (Mrs Holmes) bumps in to Peter Wimsey at a party. The use of his character is absolutely perfect and really I just had to share...
 
  

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