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Harm none - that is the rule. Always?

20:44 / 15.07.02

I have a question. There have been several threads debating the rule of black vs white magic, of harm none vs revenge and all the interpretations of this in a myriad of ways.

My question is simple ... does one violate the 'Harm none' rule if you fervently wish that the perpetrators of a crime against you be brought to justice?

The reasoning for this question ... Someone, or someones tried to break into my house while I was sleeping. As luck would have it, my 3 month old puppy woke me, and on hearing my voice, he/they ran. I only discovered the reason for my puppy's behaviour when I woke up and found the evidence of an attempt at forced entry into my house. If it hadn't been for my puppy's warning, I might have been murdered in my sleep.

The person/persons involved also took the only objects of true value in my house ... my engagement and wedding rings. Quite frankly, they could have cleaned out my house and taken everything else, but that.

I'm angry, upset and afraid of my own shadow. I resent the people involved for making me feel unsafe in what used to be my sanctuary. Right now, I'm living in fear.

Is it wrong for me to wish/pray/whatever that they be dealt with? I try to live by the rule of harm none. But right now ... I'm at war with myself. Should I, or should I not use all the avenues at my disposal to see them pay for the anguish they've caused?

Is there ever a justification for violating the rule?

20:50 / 15.07.02

I'm not sure that's a question any of us can answer, really.

I will say the best thing I'd do in a similar situation is try to get the rings back, by hook or by crook.

21:32 / 15.07.02

I think the rule is a strange one. You should ask yourself why it is that you follow the 'harm none' rule. If it is meant to be a self-evident rule, then you cannot, under any circumstances, violate it. The only remaining question is whether "being brought to justice" is harm. It is a personal question, I assume, if this question is asked in "Magick" rather than the Head Shop.

If the rule of no harm is derived, then there are other questions to answer. But the derivation should make it's meaning more clear.

And sorry about this last bit, but I'm going to recommend you read the Bhagavad Gita.

22:24 / 15.07.02

I'm not sure it's possible to exist without harming people. Sometimes it's necessary. Not to do it would be worse.

22:26 / 15.07.02

I can maybe see that needing qualification at some point. Funny, these things don't seem at all controversial until they're there in black and white.

23:28 / 15.07.02

Hi ShadowRain,

Funny, I had a lengthy discussion with a friend about how such events make you feel. She was nearly mugged recently after having her beloved bike stolen a couple of days earlier (the guy trying to mug her ran off after she turned around and screamed at him). Many years ago when I was a poor student my bedsit was robbed and what little I had at the time was stolen from me.

What's the worst thing about this is what it does to you. I remember having dreadful fantasies about what I'd do to the person if I had him/her in front of me. They involved baseball bats. My other friend admitted to harbouring similar violent thoughts after her bike was taken - my guess is the her potential mugger caught part of that pent-up rage. It does make you feel unsafe, and worried and scared too. The kind of emotions that can lead to stress and other unpleasant things.

I would suggest you consider doing something to release these emotions. Try channeling them into a creative project, or taking a self-defense class, or learning a new talent or skill. Don't ignore it - you've been through a trauma, so you'll need some time to process it.

Regarding harm in a magical context. I don't ascribe to the "harm none" rule, or the threefold guideline. I don't ever intentionally set out to hurt someone magically, but I certainly will defend myself, and will return all force equally.

I would suggest if you want to do something like this that you focus on Justice rather than revenge. There are plenty of God/desses out there that are associated with this kind of thing. The Norse God Tyr comes to mind, as does the Greek Goddess Athena. Either might suit your task. You could also do magic in the hopes of getting your rings back. Other things like using magic to protect your house, and your person, might be beneficial - even if you view it purely as a psychological exercise.

Best of luck!

02:51 / 16.07.02

It seems to me like bringing these parties to justice a la the law proper and/or getting the rings back doesn't HARM them directly.

More like it forces the parties involved to face up to the consequences of their actions. Getting them arrested isn't harming them so much as making them take responsibility for their actions, which might actually help them grow in the long run. But it is a fair and reasonable consequence for their actions.

To me, harm in this case would be trying to make sure they were beated up, attacked, or made to suffer a great deal of pain as your objective. If, as the previous poster said, your objective is to see them brought to justice in some way and your possessions recovered, I don't see it as "harming" them.

But obviously, it's your call. And I'm sorry this happened to you - I'll keep my thoughts on the return of your rings.

05:46 / 16.07.02

Firstly I'd say I'm sorry to hear what happpened to you and I hope it has no long lasting effects. I hope you've taken steps to re-secure your home as much as possible (could be a magickal act in itself as Wyrd says). I hope you manage to recover your rings as well.
As for the "harm no one" rule, I think that it's really interesting that it crops up in magick at all - very pseudo-Christian, almost a kind of apology for being into magick in the first place, but it does prevent you being the sort of nobhead who just wants to curse everybody all the time (I don't mean anyone on this thread personally, just refering to people I've met in the past). I think you've ample cause to curse someone if you see fit, but is this the best way of channeling your energy? I would be tempted to consult a divination system and take it from there.
All the best.

09:46 / 16.07.02

I don't believe in magic, but it was my understanding that you get a return on anything negative you do with 300% interest. If I was in your situation, I'd shithammer the bastard with everything I had, and consider the consequences to be worth the revenge.

13:06 / 16.07.02

as others have said - wanting the burglars arrested is wishing for justice. there would also be the possibility of you getting your rings back and, of course, it would be stopping hir/them from harming anyone else in this way, temporarily anyway. a good thing, then.

i do know how you feel. i came home not long ago to find someone had invaded my home, taken the vcr (which was uninsured but not important) and a brooch i had spent considerable effort and money on getting for my then g/f. i was told by the police that the burglar was probably after drug money - so what i really wanted was hir to be caught and got off drugs, so ze was less likely to do it to anyone else. the invasion of my space was by far the worst thing to deal with. it more or less ruined the flat for me - it belonged to hir, not me anymore. so you should concentrate on securing the place, physically and psychically, so you can feel safe again (suppose everyone should do that anyway). it wasn't about 'my property', it was about having one little space where i was totally safe violated.

hope you get your stuff back. and look after yourself.

13:12 / 16.07.02

Thanks for the feedback and the suggestions ...

To touch on a couple of points:

Based on the information contained in all the threads on chaos magic here, there is in all probability at least a sizeable chunk of people here who don't ascribe to the rule of harm none (which is a very wiccan belief). Having been weaned on what was essentially a Wiccan path, it has become rather ingrained to 'harm none' and that the karmic police will inflict everything on you 3 fold

At the end of the day, harming none has something to do with intent. As Expressionless mentioned, it is probably very dificult to exist without harming anybody or anything at all. My personal efforts are geared towards not intentionally harming people, as I would prefer if people would not intentionally harm me. This not being an ideal world ... this isn't always the case.

Which prompted my asking the question, to get an idea of what other people feel on the matter.

With regards to bringing them to justice ... given the severe lack of man-power within the police force in South Africa and the fact that they have far more important things to deal with (murder, rape etc), I have no real expectation that they'll spend a lot of time on what, to them, is normal breaking and entering with theft thrown into the bargain.

SMatthew : Started reading the Bhagavad Gita, but it's fairly heavy going

Thanks for the reference.

14:52 / 16.07.02

For me, it is sort of who knows anyway about what you really do when you think you are harming someone through magick. If you just send them a bunch of nasty nightmares so they wake up throwing up dinner on their bed sheets instead of going to justice, maybe they will get a better chance to view things "paranormally" different and take more responsibility for their acts -they'll think it twice next time, and at least make sure they are not entering a sorcerer's house.

Whatever, if you want the rings back, do cast a spell, with all your emotional and dettached magickal might, and forget about them. Magick is always at work, you do not know if you'll get the rings back or something on their place, while you didn't anticipate loosing them. I would assume it was no chance that they took something of huge personal value, as somehting similar has happen to me twice in the past, with no one to blame but "mere fckn' chance". So wave a sign of grateful recognition to whatever powers took them away, and show them you still can gather all your might and will.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

15:23 / 16.07.02

The 300% is a Wiccan thing, and if you believe in it, it will happen. Chaos Magick doesn't believe in that stuff, since magick is just a kind of science. Think about it a bit, if you do a spell to get money and find $50, that means someone else lost $50. Same with a job, a toaster, anything really.

I'm reading Liber Null and Psychonaut and it discusses white, gray and black magick in detail, and it seems to push intent more than action. Do you want revenge or justice? Revenge is gray, justice is white.

Myself? I would think that for them to be punished is for the greater good.

19:13 / 16.07.02

I often ask for Justice. I'll even invoke Tyr and Ma'at for it. But when I do, its always to bring the matter to the attention of the dieties in question, that they might see the larger situation and make the best choice for the greater good. Kind of like reporting the incident to the karma police. I'll never suggest a specific recourse, that would be direct magick on my part. I only wish that the scales be balanced for the betterment of all.

And if its a case of getting my shit back, that I'll cast for on my own power and let it find its own way home. That's one situation where the non-specific nature of chaos magick is useful to escape moral quandries. All I asked for was my shit to come home. If the path it took involved bad things happneing to the person who took it, well, the Gods make those decisions, not me. I just put in my requests for results. Its not my fault if your bad karma got in the way, now is it?

18:56 / 18.07.02

Well, I've started implementing some of your excellent suggestions. Which is why I would liek to ask that you please go te the following URL http://shadowrain2.tripod.com/magic_index.html. I've created and uploaded a sigil. If any of you would be willing to add your energy to the working to have my rings returned to me, I would appreciate it if you could charge the sigil.

Once again, thanks a million for the support and advice.

20:49 / 18.07.02

Done.

odd jest on horn

23:10 / 18.07.02

I have this eery picture in my mind of hundreds of lithers all over the world jerking off in front of their computers right this instant.

23:17 / 18.07.02

heh. I guess magick really is for wankers

Granted, some of us have better ways to go about charging than that...