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Fake it 'til it's real

23:15 / 14.07.02

What do people on the board think of this? Something to get you started or an ongoing process? A way of looking at the world, or a way of kickstarting change? Is it something you find useful, or does the idea make you roll your eyes?

Discuss...

The Return Of Rothkoid

23:57 / 14.07.02

Fifty-fifty. As someone who's just starting along a magickal path - or, if you like, a reevaluation of how I view the world - I find it's kind of useful, because I know that I'm coming across a lot of uncertainty about what I'm doing. In that respect, thinking "it's OK not to know what the fuck's going on - let's just keep ploughing through" is beneficial, as it negates (to a certain extent) the feeling that if you're not feeling or experiencing something off-the-bat, you're a failure.

On the other hand, it does make me roll my eyes. It's something that obviously works for many people (and I'm undecided if that includes me, yet) but in my more questioning moments, I see it as a prop for self-delusion - you know, like an eraser that rubs out the distinction between something you've had a hand in and synchronicity/the way things are; something that I can see could be a bit ropey in some ways.

Whether that's good or bad, of course, is up for debate.

So yeah. 50/50. Tending a bit more towards the "pshaw" side of the spectrum, but I'm sure that'll be eked away with time...

Boy in a Suitcase

00:34 / 15.07.02

Why not just try it and see if it works for you?

00:42 / 15.07.02

I think this bit can be very helpful, but even more so when used in conjunction with other magickal and self-transforming methods.

The Return Of Rothkoid

06:11 / 15.07.02

Boy In A Suitcase: in general, or in my/expressionless' case specifically? Just a bit unclear...

Boy in a Suitcase

06:17 / 15.07.02

Well, both, I guess.
Pick something minor and completely arbitrary, believe it until it's true, and see what happens.

The Return Of Rothkoid

09:22 / 15.07.02

See, that's the bit that kinda worries me inasmuch as it implies what could be seen as self-delusion. That's the thing I have a problem with this area: sometimes synchronicity is merely synchronicity, surely? And as positively-reinforcing as believing everything that happens may be, surely that rides dangerously close to solipsism?

13:04 / 15.07.02

But if its less than abitrary, then it can be a useful technique. Or to quote from Heist, the David Mamet film,

I imagine someone cleverer than myself and ask what he would do...

13:46 / 15.07.02

>> See, that's the bit that kinda worries me inasmuch as it implies what could be seen as self-delusion. That's the thing I have a problem with this area: sometimes synchronicity is merely synchronicity, surely?

Understood, and a valid concern, but no one ever did the impossible without risk.

Is a dogged determination & faith in something noble and bound to produce incredible, often miraculous results, or the road to self-delusional madness? Many of history's greatest pioneers have traveled this route, called crazy and arrogant by their peers until they made their dreams come true.

Synchronicity also comes about more frequently when one is firmly on a path, with a goal, and 100% committed to realizing that goal. Sometimes that goal could even be to encounter more beneficial synchronicity.

Does that make sense?

14:37 / 15.07.02

I agree with HunterWolf. There is a piece not much discussed on the synchronicity matter, being that at some point you will have to literally decide what an event means for you, and act accordingly. You may get consistent "synchroniced" feedback which is plainly negative to your purposes, but if you still pursue it to your heart, and assume and act as if such messages are just challenges to discourage you from success, you may still fulfill your desires and even learn a lot about your own will and capabilities.

And if you are convinced you are in the road to self-delusional madness, as long as is it remains a private matter and you can still get your food and living its fine with me. But dont try to convince me into talking to the same pink elephants you are talking to, no matter how amusing you find them, because then I will be obliged to show you my own green little dwarves from Sirius.

16:47 / 15.07.02

By the way, strictly on topic, I think you can not fake if first you don't get some illustrative information about what you are going to be faking on. So, for me it is learn it, and do it, till you make it. The more you learn it, the more chances you'll be able to do it. Cover all the bases.

The self delusional thing kicks in when you forget you were faking, or when you do not even think of in-formating. When its ReAl, then you can healthily assume you did learn it.

In a sense, we all are quite narrow self-deluded solipsists, it happens that some solipsisms are more painful than others, or may elicit really hurtful actions form our own "outward" constructions, which no matter how constructed they appear to be, they are never fully under our safe solipsistic control.

18:55 / 15.07.02

I think it's well worth wondering at this juncture what the difference (in a magickal universe) between something that's "real" and something that's "imaginary" might be.

A word to the wise is sufficient (or oughta be, anyway).

19:06 / 15.07.02

Hey, you shameless fakers, I've just read a short piece about the fakers and the faked, very amusing, and definitely of interest for this thread, and for all those interested in novel ways for invocation, and who the hell knows why it is titled Psychic Vampirism and Spontaneous Toxick Magick.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

19:35 / 15.07.02

I liked the idea of feeding off their energy as they try to save his soul.

This is something I deal with often. I think it's just a part of realizing how great your own influence is as an "observer" in this universe. Either your world is smaller or you're a lot bigger than you previously thought...

Question: If you use this slogan to achieve orgasm, will you still be worried about who caused what and what just occured for no reason?

19:47 / 15.07.02

The catch to this is that its only self-delusion if you don't "make it." If you become what you are pretending to be, then your faking becomes justified by your success. I'm with the camp that trying it in the first place is better than not at all, as your declaration of what you wish to be as what you currently are is a magickal working towards becoming that thing. Magick is only hogwash when it doesn't work for you.

20:30 / 15.07.02

"You can increase your chances of having a multiple O simply by observing all the things that happen involuntarily when you approach orgasm and doing them intentionally," says Keesling. "Eventually, you may even condition your body to become excited again automatically," she says.

Carefully excerpted from Cosmopolitan Magazine online.

22:20 / 15.07.02

Hey, I just asked a few questions. Don't presume a stance!

I'm just kinda interested in this fine line that we walk. Chaos Magick and NLP both use constructed world models as a catalyst to change and growth. Becoming aware of the way in which we construct these models can be extremely useful in learning to de-program all the well meaning but unhelpful filters we put between experiences and ourselves. In NLP, everything we have is a useful resource, including our imagination.

Here, the meaning behind the slogan becomes a means of developing a more useful interface between yourself and the world, one which has a higher degree of realism and a greater amount of possible options. However, I know a number of people who have ended up becoming quite divorced from those around them, with world models that their imagination has cooked up that have hindered their personal growth and left them trapped in a stagnant bubble of their own ego. This is where I draw the line: using the skills as a means of taming the ego rather than bolstering it (God knows, it gets bolstered enough of it's own accord without me consciously helping it).

Another sidetrack... it's an acceptable premise within the Magick forum that we're dealing with spirits that are external to ourselves. How do you think they'd deal with a magician that uses fakery as the device that pushes their ability to new levels? Do you just have to be a really damn good liar?

Remember, honeys and huns, they're just questions.

23:49 / 15.07.02

Interesting subject. The Fake it 'til it's Real concept depends on what you're referring to.

If you're talking about solid magical information and what to do with it, then it's easy to fake if you're around people who don't know any better. However, to experienced magical workers such fakery is blindingly obvious, and you're not doing yourself any favours.

If you're talking about a lifestyle thing, then that can work. Most of us blag our way into things all the time - jobs, clubs, etc. All it requires is the requisite amount of confidence and projection. However, usually there is some solid base in there - we know we can learn, or that we can develop our skills quickly, if we are given the chance. Probably none of us would have the jobs we have today if we didn't project some attitude of this nature.

In that case, you can fake it until it's real. But, that doesn't mean that no work is necessary. What it means is that you can fake it until your skillset catches is up with what you are projecting. There are very few people who can pull off such fakery - while never obtaining the skills behind it - without getting caught out in the end.

It's partly a magical act too. By projecting yourself in a certain way other people begin to view you as this, and that goes on to reinforce your proposed image. If it's part of your persona you want to develop, then this is a good way of growing this part of yourself up.

Of course, if you examine the adage, the first question that springs to mind is: what is real? Most of it is perception, and yes indeedy that can be altered.

Yeah, I dig the whole external spirits thing expressionless. You can bet your entire shelf of Crowley books that they will see through such magical chicanery in a instant. As I said above, so will experienced people.

Then you run the risk of having the said Spirits (or other magicians) at the very least taking the piss out of you, or at the worst, taking advantage of you.

I think the above maxim is a rather glib, and kind of cool-sounding, phrase. Like with anything, it's how you apply the philosophy that counts.

Nice and smooth baby.

02:41 / 16.07.02

I read once that part of what helps someone become successful is AUDACITY as much as talent and ability, especially in any remotely creative field.

I think this is a big part of the healthy part of 'fake it til you make it' or whatever the silly saying is.

03:01 / 16.07.02

I'm reminded of the beginning of a Terry Pratchett Discworld book. There's this apprentice wizard enrolled in the wizard college, and he's really, really lazy. He thinks that being in college is a great dodge to avoid work, so he throws all the tests.

Eventually his professor catches on. Now, any student with a score below a certain point will be kicked out of school. So the apprentice studies his ass off, to make sure that he can throw the test just enough to not pass, but stay in the college. 'Cause he doesn't want to actually work at anything.

The joke, of course, is that he's put all sorts of work into knowing the material backwards and forwards, so that he "doesn't have to to any work."

I'd think the same principle applies here. You start out not believing, and not knowing the right skills. So you fake it. The next time, you fake it again, making corrections to improve your simulation. Eventually you're "faking it" so well that what you're doing is indistinguishable from the real deal.

14:22 / 16.07.02

Okay, I 'll disclose my innards. I am with HunterWolf and Doubting Thomas on this. For me its either all of it shameless fakery, improved fakery, better and poorer fakery, or either learning, audacity, and acting, doing it, and since NLP was brought to the tapestry, as much as I learned from it (which for me is about a 15% of what is going on), I reject their fancy marketing easy-to-remember phrases such as this nanny dull crap: "fake it till it's real". I remember reading that Erickson said something like this to Bandler at some point of the interviews they had, near the end of one of THE nlp books (Frogs into Princess), and actually Erickson use the verb "pretend", but the single phrase excissed from its context is as useless as can without an opener.

I've been through high school and university, I am called a "professional", and I have no problem to say that I am a complete, big, proficient and quite unnoticable faker, I know what I can do and what I have to learn, I am nothing of what people infer I am from any title (in fact titles do not say what you are, they just mention you have been granted with them), and of course I exploit them, I exploit what people infer I am, just as I also exploit and am exploited by what other people is faking they are. Now, if they do not think they are faking that's their own problem and delusion.

As ol' as the pyramids are, I think its learn about what you want to do, do it with audacity, check if its what you wanted, learn more, and do it again till you make it happen. Get some people to know that you are learning something, and others to know you already know it (yes, cheat). Interact with both groups separately, but do not get into the delusional thinking you implanted in the second group, and you'll be able to keep your sense of humor. And if you fake a spirit or power animal contact, at least fake it to your best, get the totems, the ritual and the altar, so you have guaranteed that some of it will happen, and in the worst case either the spirit or the mind-projection will be pleased.

17:13 / 16.07.02

The slogan from which the thread gains its title is extremely similar to "fake it 'til you make it," taken from Grant Morrison's continuing series of articles on Pop Magick, to the best of my knowledge. I've only heard "fake it 'til it's real" employed in this forum, so I'd be interested in learning where it came from. One place it definitely didn't come from is Frogs Into Princes, which indeed uses terms like "pretend" in the context of a variety of interesting therapy techniques. I've never heard it used by any NLP practitioner, although I could be wrong.

Sebastian: Have any of us said anything to piss you off? Your opening couple of sentences have made me concerned that my irreverent tone may be rubbing people up the wrong way. I think most of us are in some form of loose agreement that the concepts that hide behind the dumb slogan have many good applications.

17:33 / 16.07.02

it's an acceptable premise within the Magick forum that we're dealing with spirits that are external to ourselves. How do you think they'd deal with a magician that uses fakery as the device that pushes their ability to new levels? Do you just have to be a really damn good liar? – expressionless

I've got two answers to that question: the considered one and the "gut instinct" one.

The Considered Answer: It will depend on the spirit/entity being dealt with. (Hermes will handle it differently than Maat.

) Most people who wish to interact with a given spirit or entity will do enough research beforehand to know whether or not faking it is something that would be appropriate. If not...see below.

The Gut Instinct Answer: If the spirit/entitly doesn't like it, the magician will find out VERY QUICKLY!

And from that point on, they'll be much more interested in "keepin' it real" than "faking the funk".

17:55 / 16.07.02

Sebastian: Have any of us said anything to piss you off?

Hell, no buddy, not even dream of it. Since "the meaning of your communication is the response you get" it is me who should apologize then for not stressing the ironic tenor I intended.

18:55 / 16.07.02

I've only heard "fake it 'til it's real" employed in this forum, so I'd be interestedin learning where it came from.

Well, I know I at least came up with it independently a couple of years ago and was spouting it for awhile as my new revelation and explanation of how the casting of magic works. I don't know if I can actually take credit for it spreading here, but I'd be mightly amused if it did

I just presumed parallel development as usual with this case.

19:19 / 16.07.02

"Fake it till you make it" was a fancy phrase among jazz musicians (directly quoted from Prometheus Rising, chapter 1, exerzises, by RA Wilson, which I am precisely reading).

19:29 / 16.07.02

When it comes to external spirits, I think we're always faking it anyway. Its faith that makes up the difference, makes it "real" rather than a fake. If you've got faith in what you're doing, you're not really faking it at all, I'd think.

19:45 / 16.07.02

"External" "spirits" are a good example of the point I was trying to make earlier: the distinction between "imagination" and "reality" isn't a particularly useful one in a magickal universe. Robert Anton Wilson makes this point over and over.

"External" "spirits" (and other such fauna: devas, angels, elementals, etc.) live in the province of what Spare referred to as the "neither-neither". They aren't precisely external, independent entities; nor are they precisely internal "personae" of one sort or another...

02:40 / 17.07.02

Or, you can think about it this way:

If you're standing by the side of a stream, and you see a rock out in the water that you'd like to jump upon, you're more likely to reach it if you just give a big jump, than if you think about whether or not you can make it, and become indecisive on the way over the water because you're not sure if you could have made it anyway.