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Confession

20:17 / 11.07.02

You're not confused at all, Godog.

You're well aware of who you are – and so am I.

~Ierne

Cat's out of the bag, I suppose, but of course, SMatthewStolte picked up on it sooner. Of course, I've not been too subtle about it, nor have I tried very hard to conceal.

greyorderdisordergrey = 444 = G.D.G = godog = DDD = MMM = VVV = 0 (mod 3)

"But I defy you to see through me: nothing is all that you will see!"
..No
Means
..No

And that is because, Ierne, you ain't even looking at me, but only seeing through your judgemental filters and constructing what you want to see.

See you around!

20:27 / 11.07.02

I wasn't aware there was anything judgemental about my post, Godog.

Since you have made it clear that you are the same modthree that was harassing Lothar and myself, among others, I respectfuly request that you please leave me alone. Just put me me on your ignore list and enjoy your stay on this board. Thank you kindly.

20:28 / 11.07.02

Oh yes, to add only a little:

I am increasingly aware of who I am: it is what I strive for.

You, Ierne, on the other hand, really have no clue who I am (again, you seem to see what you want to see, but avoid the reality or at least a plausible interpretation thereof). Therefore, the second statement that I quote of you above is a false statement. Moreover, I think that you are, at times, unaware of who you are, and remain blind, deaf, and dumb to the shadow aspects of your being. I know that others around Litherland feel the same, for instance see Higher than the Sun's post in the thread about impersonating 'Lithers (likely somewhere on the second page of the conversation).

Cheers.

20:31 / 11.07.02

I don't ignore anyone--that is the tactic of cowards. Your above post wasn't particularly judgemental, but many of your other posts are: that you can't see this shows what I said in the post above is true. Sigh. Alas, G.D.G has likely been added to your ignore list faster than a crack whore smoke crack, so you probably aren't even allowing yourself to read this.

20:37 / 11.07.02

How come nobody told me that it was Dipshit Week on the Underground?

20:41 / 11.07.02

And to add with respect to your thoughts on "harassing:"

I never harassed you Ierne/Kookla, you badgered me until I responded in kind, but again, we've been over this before and I know that both of us want to stick with our interpretations of the events. I certainly never harassed Lothar, but only asked him to think outside some of his boxes now and then. In fact, I sorely miss reading Lothar's contributions to this community (but yours I could, more often than not, do without).

With respect to the whole diZzy fiassco, I think that Fenris 23 had it right when he put forth that some people merely misunderstood what was going on in that thread. Both your and Lothar's concerns within the thread were not at all what I was talking about, and so, I ignored giving response to them. As I recently read in "Deconstruction: Theory and Practice," by Christopher Norris, about an exchange which occured between Derrida and Searle (which reminded me exactly of our exchange in diZzy)

"Even while 'playing old Harry'...with Searle's intentions, [Derrida] can argue that his opponent has ignored the letter of his (Derrida's) original text and thus laid himself open to a riddling rejoinder."

20:45 / 11.07.02

"How come nobody told me that it was Dipshit Week on the Underground?"

I guess you must be outta' the loop or something, but feel free to join right in: your post above certainly fits the bill!

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

20:47 / 11.07.02

Not wishing to cast aspersions on either of you, but surely a 2-person argument is less ugly when conducted in private?

20:51 / 11.07.02

Aye Chairman, but why not air the laundry in public?

Besides, it has, as soon as the flame hits the crack in the pipe, merely become a one person fight: kinda' like in FightClub when you realize (once you get closer to the end of the film) that it was actually the main character who had punched himself in the ear earlier!

Bless.

"Ow! You hit me in the ear!"

20:56 / 11.07.02

People, can we all try to play nice? Hello, G.D.G. Lets start afresh with no hard feelings and no animosity. What do you say?

21:17 / 11.07.02

Hey Lurid! I have rarely felt any animosity for any of you, minus Ierne.

I have often enjoyed the exchanges with many of you (even when they are heated) because you fine folks can really push me to express my thoughts and feelings ever more clearly and consicely (which assists in driving my own understanding of myself). This is what I love most about this place: it has a large group of very intelligent people, and we are all doing our best to mis/communicate who we are, how we feel, and what we are. That is, we are all exchanging, expressing, reforming, and constructing identities. Moreover, I often find that reading the threads and responses that people give (to my posts and to the posts of others) create novel ways to look at the same old problems, or better, suggest new problems with the same old solutions.

In short, I love this place, and I really love most of the people here (if I did not enjoy being here, in the sense that I feel that Litherland has much to offer, then I would not bother). I think we are very fortunate to have the opportunity to interact through this board, and thank god/dess(es) for it and for Tom and cheers to him for keeping ths place going, and cheers to most of you for your continued participation!

But honestly, I am not willing, nor have I the patience to put up with every poster's crap (as I am sure some of you feel about my crap). I guess we all have growing to do, and I suspect that none of us is fully illuminated; however, it is important to at least recognize this (the growing part): if we can't see our own shadows, then we can't hope to deal with the shadows in the world; that is, we sometimes need to have the courage to point the finger at ourselves instead of always pointing it to something "out there."

Revolution begins within.

Anyway, Lurid, thanks for the above post. I really desire that we can start afresh in the sense that we strive for love for one and other even when understanding is mirky, words are heated, and the mud slinging begins.

Besides, without a little mud thrown around now and then, the soap-opera of Barbelith would likely die out, and then where would we be? We'd have to go back to watching TV--a vastly inferiour form of entertainment!

21:26 / 11.07.02

Thats good, G.D.G., and I'm glad to hear it. In the spirit of impartiality I'd like to urge both you and Ierne to keep a lid on it. Be civil, try not to wind eachother up, let the past go and don't respond to goading. Besides, infighting is both boring and destructive.

21:32 / 11.07.02

Oh, I agree that we need argument round these parts in order to keep the place alive. So yeah, fling some mud around. However, surely it's better for the board as a whole (and the individual posters involved) if that mud-flinging is as a consequence of heated, intelligent discussion, rather than personal dislike? And there's no way in hell that this argument, regardless of its origins, is anything other than personal dislike. It's managed to seep into a number of other threads recently and could do with either being put to sleep or taken off-board and into private communication.

If the two of you can't stomach each other, then ignore each other. If you don't want to use the ignore function, then do it by just not reading the other person's posts. It really is that simple.

Murray Hamhandler

21:38 / 11.07.02

"I guess we all have growing to do, and I suspect that none of us is fully illuminated; however, it is important to at least recognize this (the growing part): if we can't see our own shadows, then we can't hope to deal with the shadows in the world; that is, we sometimes need to have the courage to point the finger at ourselves instead of always pointing it to something "out there."

Too true, too true. And I'm not trying to be snarky. I wish everyone could admit when they're wrong (or perhaps at least less in the right than they'd formerly thought). I'm sure that I'll be the first to admit it if it ever happens to me...

22:07 / 11.07.02

I'd like to let all the past stuff go with respect to Ierne. I've expressed this wish more than once before in several different threads: I even wrote--and wrote sincerely--about giving her huggles in the "who would you like to huggle thread." Really, it is a pointless waste of my time, her time, and everyone's time to read about it over and over again.

However, I do not think that we need to put up with attitudes that boarder on a fascist demand of "think like me or else," and unfortunately, this is sometimes how Ierne expresses herself. I don't make her do it, she does it all by herself. I've said in past threads that I do think Ierne makes positive contributions to this community, but I also feel that she creates dischord as well. Again, I am not alone in thinking this.

In short, I am willing (and have been willing) to drop the old conflict between Ierne and I. Many of my references to diZzy are so that people who read me are aware of where I am coming from, and not to irk Ierne. However, since I see no value in ignoring people, I will speak out when and if I see anyone making dogmatic and "think like me or else" claims, whether it is Ierne or not. Put differently, it is not that I can't stomache Ierne, but that I can't stomache the way she sometimes expresses herself.

However, due to the ability to ignore, I am sure she isn't reading any of this, but only continuing to hold onto how she thinks I have wronged her, which maybe I did (it is, like I quoted above, not because I hated her, but merely because she missed the boat with respect to "the letter" of diZzy), but not in the way that she thinks I have. I am really sorry that she feels this way: diZzy was to provoke, yes, but to provoke thought and not hate.

23:08 / 11.07.02

But Monkey, it doesn't have to be a battle, and in fact, I'd prefer it if it wasn't. I'm sick of the violence that we continue to do to one and other ('we' generalized, 'violence' not merely physical but any sort of attacks resulting in wounds and trauma).

You are opening a whole other can of worms here, one which, likely, could use a thread in the head shop as opposed to here in this one (although I suppose it is a "choose your own adventure").

In some ways, you are asking me to consider a question similar to asking "Is red red?" We'll bump up against self-referencing paradox faster than light escaspe the core of the sun (which is actually slower than you'd think, I think?).

You want to know if it is fascist to want to rid the world of fascists? I dunno'. Maybe.

I don't like 'tolerance' it is a word with implications of "better than..." For example, I can say that I'm willing to tolerate fascist discorse, even though I don't like it. This implies that I feel that my position is better than fascist discourse. We can apply this to less clear cut cases, such as gay marriage, religious differences, etc. Tolerance implies a feeling of superiourity in those who are willing to tolerate.

Acceptance is a better thing to go for. By saying we accept, say, gay marriages, we say that we are willing to have them occur well at the same time not passing a judgement on their ethical import, or better, allowing them to be ethically validated. Now, I'll ask you, is it right for us to accept fascisism?

If you answer in the affirmitive, then I think the moral ground you stand on is shaky: we do have a right not to accept fascism in a society--open or otherwise: it is a poison, and something that needs to be removed from our interactions with one and other.

23:23 / 11.07.02

If, by the end, you mean the last paragraph, then OK. I am not saying we have a right to "look down" on fascists; rather, I am saying that we have a right not to ethically validate such a position. It seems to me that fascist positions seek to destroy freedoms, and as such, need to be weeded out.

However, I do agree with what you are saying about "fanning the flames." By taking up arms (metaphorical or otherwise) we do validate and encourage the position we seek to destroy. But, I find it difficult to understand how we are to "defend" ourselves against fascism without taking a stance against it. I think that non-action is not better than action in this case. How do you suggest we "defend" ourselves against it without validating it as an acceptable position?

Nietzsch E. Coyote

00:00 / 12.07.02

Let's go for a catholic perspective, hate the sin not the sinner.
I'm intollerant of intollerance but I don't dissmiss the people who say intollerant things on occassion. At least if they say intelligent things on occasion too.

I like second names but don't have time to have one, or the creativity to think up a second name. Name guessing seems to be only used to identify people they don't like. eg: Irene finding Mod, or anyone finding Knodge.

God, taking part in these argument threads is like smoking, I know I shouldn't but... Puff aaahh!

00:24 / 12.07.02

Smoke friend, smoke..