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big death

 
 
autopilot disengaged
18:50 / 07.11.01
1. nuclear bombs
when Bush warned of the Al-Qaeda's potential nuclear capability, many people (including myself) regarded it as mothing more than a cheap piece of paranoia-feeding misdirection. the news that Turkish police have just last week managed to catch wideboy gangsters selling weapons-grade uranium on the black market makes me nervous - to say the least.

2. daisy-cutters!
meanwhile, over in Afghanistan, the US has moved from heinously-expensive 'smart' bombs, to the portable minefield by any other name that is the cluster bomb - into a phase of carpet bombing (until recently, even derided as part of a dishonourable past by the US military themselves) - and now...

laydeez and gannelmen, i give you the single - most - destructive - bomb (short of the nuuuuclear option - it quite literally sets - the air - on - fire - vapouriiiiises everything inside a square - kilometre - it's the
daisy-cutter!

at least two of these confirmed dropped today.

3. hunger
a big fave since biblical times - read it and weep:

quote:Experienced, respected food aid organizations warn that even before the bombing of Afghanistan began on October 7, some 7,500,000 Afghans were -- through a gut-wrenching combination of poverty, drought, war, dislocation, and repression -- at risk of starving to death this winter. When the bombing began, almost all delivery of food from the outside world stopped. Now, roads and bridges are destroyed, millions more people are dislocated, and the snow is steadily approaching from higher elevations and from the north.

Seven and a half million people at risk of dying in a matter of months. That's three times the number of people Pol Pot took years to kill. Thirty-five times the number that died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, combined. If 5,000 died on September 11 (a number that reports are now suggesting is vastly inflated), we're talking the equivalent number of deaths to ten World Trade Centers, every day, for 150 days. Slow, painful deaths. Entirely avoidable deaths. Deaths whose sole cause is not the United States, but most of which can still be prevented -- except that the United States is refusing to allow them to be prevented.

That's today. What will happen if millions of Afghans die this winter? How much future terrorism will the dunderheads of the Bush Administration have inspired then? If several million Islamic sisters and brothers starve to death, innocent civilians trapped between winter and the rage of America, how many of Islam's 1.2 billion adherents -- or the five billion other people on earth -- are going to take George Bush's proclamations about eradicating "terrorists" and "evildoers" to heart, and label him, and us, as the prime examples?


a caveat, here - i've seen reports in the media from NGOs themselves that would seem to suggest the 7.5 million figure is a worst case scenario, and - despite everything, they feel they've done enough to stave off death on this scale (though, obviously, there's no way of knowing - difficult to get reliable info from a warzone...)

as apathy and plain old boredom seize the public, it seems the stakes have been raised again.

- more on this in the lo-tech terror thread.

[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: autopilot disengaged ]
 
 
Seth
20:01 / 07.11.01
I saw a bit of footage of the daisy cutter in action this evening. Fuck.

That was right after seeing little men being blown to bits from a precision bomb's point of view. They were military targets, but... it still bought tears.

I hate this.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
20:20 / 07.11.01
Are "daisy cutters" sometimes called fuel-air bombs, or is that something else entirely?
 
 
autopilot disengaged
20:44 / 07.11.01
i think daisy-cutters are pretty much the prototype fuel-air bomb. the daddy of them all.

what i'm uncertain of is - during the ill-fated Soviet invasion, they used 'vacuum bombs' - apparently so named because they suck all the oxygen out of the air, and therefore (the theory went) perfect for mass suffocation of personnel hiding in tunnels.

now, from what i remember of fuel-air bombs, the death by fire in the initial blast area is accompanied by suffocation around this - as the bomb burns so fiercely it similarly drinks down all available air.
 
 
Frances Farmer
09:06 / 08.11.01
This is correct.

And, in fact, this bomb is rated second only to a low-yield thermonuclear warhead, if I recall correctly.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:10 / 08.11.01
Let's not stretch the definition of what a 'weapon of mass destruction' is, because I don't want it to catch on. I don't want that distinction blurred. I want nukes, bugs, and corrosive neurotoxins which chew through your skin and stop your lungs from working to be on a whole other level from, for example, crashing a plane into a massive building or using a 15,000 tonne bomb.

For fairly obvious reasons, yes?
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
09:33 / 08.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Nick:
for example, crashing a plane into a massive building...


You see, according to Jo Moore, that would be a Weapon of Mass Distraction...
 
 
Frances Farmer
09:33 / 08.11.01
Nick,

I'm in agreement -- although I think we ought to still recognize that daisy cutters are nasty, nasty weapons...
 
 
jerry cornelius
13:55 / 08.11.01
Heh. Here's how General Peter Pace, vice-chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, described 'em...

"As you would expect, they make a heck of a bang when they go off and the intent is to kill people."

Genius. Idiots rule.
 
 
autopilot disengaged
14:32 / 08.11.01
i've changed the thread title (no shit, sherlock).
 
 
Naked Flame
14:57 / 08.11.01
I'd stick my neck out here and say that daisy-cutters are weapons of mass destruction. The press are writing them up as 'like a nuke but without the fallout.' Anyone remember tactical nukes? they were big in the 80s before Reagan and Gorbachev signed their treaty- the concept was to just to make a 'little' explosion that only destroyed a square K or so.

Death is death whether it comes in the form of a nuke, a bomb, a plane or an envelope. Let's not beat about the bush- these weapons are massively destructive and kill indiscriminately. Imagine the US trying to hush the media if they dropped one of those on a red cross building... different league, ya dig?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:16 / 08.11.01
Look at it this way: Daisy Cutters are pretty much the largest practical conventional warhead. They're so big, they can't even use a conventional bomber, they just tip 'em out of the back of a Hercules with a parachute.

We can classify them as weapons of Mass Destruction, in which case we are already using WoMDs and why should we stop there, or we can impose a ceiling on this madness by using the technology as a boundary.

The daisy cutter is the largest conventional weapon we use, and therefore the most powerful weapon we are prepared to use...or it's the first rung on the nuclear ladder.

Take your pick. I know where my money is.
 
 
Naked Flame
15:28 / 08.11.01
Nick- what we are talking about here is a percieved property of the munitions in question. The only reason it's a worthwhile distinction is because N/B/C munitions are automatically on the Do Not Touch list of the powers that are engaged in bombing the shit out of Afghanistan, lovingly pre-destroyed for your viewing pleasure. We morally condemn our enemies for using, or wishing to use, these devices- that said, the only country I can remember that ever dropped a nuke on a city was, erm, the USA.

Hence, while I'll accept your view that daiy-cutters are being flagged as the Big Daddy of 'conventional' aerial bombardment, I'd like you to accept that the difference is primarily semantic- particularly if one falls within a klick of your position.

This feels to me like we're getting our retaliation in first. It's overkill. Then again, so is the whole thing.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:02 / 08.11.01
I've never actually argued with that, if you look, although I think it's probably mistaken to compare the most powerful end of one category with the least powerful of another and say they are the same...similar, yes, and, as you say, dead is dead...but there are differences, and we should be aware of them.

None of this is right. Let's not cloud it.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
19:11 / 08.11.01
More historical than anything else: weren't Daisy Cutters originally designed for clearing helicopter landing sites, rather than personnel-targetting purposes? I believe I read that somewhere last week, though I'm buggered if I can remember where...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
19:33 / 08.11.01
According to the beeb the other night, they were designed for clearing jungle in Vietnam, but the military "quickly realised they could be deployed against personel".

I'll just bet.

15,000 tonnes of fuel sprayed out to six hundred metres, which explodes and burns, sends out a shockwave which crushes bones, then sucks all the air to the epicentre.

Well, it's wasted on trees, isn't it?
 
 
autopilot disengaged
20:08 / 08.11.01
"Outside the laboratory he was consumed by his religion and by a bizarre fascination with the occult. Eventually, he was drawn to the ultra-Islamist Taliban regime across the border in Afghanistan, where he met the movement's reclusive supreme leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar, several times. Now US intelligence officials are concerned that Mahmood and a close colleague at the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission, Chaudhry Abdul Majid, may have shared their nuclear expertise with the fundamentalist regime..."


A leading Pakistani nuclear scientist dedicated himself to supporting the Taliban. Should we be worried?

[ 08-11-2001: Message edited by: autopilot disengaged ]
 
 
Naked Flame
07:45 / 09.11.01
isnt that the guy they arrested already?
 
 
penitentvandal
08:31 / 09.11.01
Holy shit!

He wrote several books exploring his interest in life forces and doomsday scenarios. In one book, Cosmology and Human Destiny, written three years ago, he studied the peculiar impact of sunspots on daily life. Heavy sunspot activity, he argued, had coincided with the French Revolution, the American Declaration of Independence, the Russian Revolution and both world wars. He concluded that governments across the world "are already being subjected to great emotional aggression under the catalytic effect of the abnormally high sunspot activity under which they are most likely to adopt aggression as the natural solution for their problems".

Okay - just whose side is this guy on?
 
 
Mystery Gypt
10:01 / 09.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Nick:
15,000 tonnes of fuel sprayed out to six hundred metres, which explodes and burns


now, couldn't we just NOT burn all that oil, and then not fight a war ultimately aimed at securing more tonnes of oil? cut out the middle man as it were.
 
 
rizla mission
13:43 / 09.11.01
quote:Originally posted by velvetvandal:
Holy shit!

He wrote several books exploring his interest in life forces and doomsday scenarios. In one book, Cosmology and Human Destiny, written three years ago, he studied the peculiar impact of sunspots on daily life. Heavy sunspot activity, he argued, had coincided with the French Revolution, the American Declaration of Independence, the Russian Revolution and both world wars. He concluded that governments across the world "are already being subjected to great emotional aggression under the catalytic effect of the abnormally high sunspot activity under which they are most likely to adopt aggression as the natural solution for their problems".

Okay - just whose side is this guy on?




That is refering to the same Taliban supporting Pakistani Nuclear weapons expert, right?

Sounds an interesting character and no mistake..

oh, and 'daisy cutter' - such a nice phrase to waste on a big ugly stupid bomb..
 
 
penitentvandal
13:51 / 09.11.01
Indeed, 'tis a direct quote pulled from the website in question.

Bizarre to see one of the fundies using the sunspot theory - I thought that was one of ours!

He also had a very scary theory about capturing djinni and extracting a kind of 'energy' from them - shades of the fragment of god held captive in the Dulce base in the second volume of the Invisibles!

Hmm. Islamist Magi attacking the US, the Royal Engineers using dowsing machines to find bombs - 'Is Xena on anywhere? I need to get a bit of realism in me fuckin' life, y'know what I mean?'
 
 
rizla mission
14:11 / 09.11.01
He sounds like a pretty cer-azy guy.

I would have thought that being a follower of hardline fundamentalist Islam would have prevented him from spending time considering weird western psuedo-science and stuff..
 
 
Mystery Gypt
15:27 / 09.11.01
who's to say the sunspot theory is only in the hands of the west? islam invented most astronomy, right?

and as far as it being "ours", the invisibles were a small decentralized terrorist cell who took on the american military and won, remember? sounds to me like he is on the appropriate side.
 
  
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