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Ooh you are awful! But I like you!

 
 
Sax
08:54 / 11.07.02
In a Conversation thread discussion of the possible uses for a small pocket on the inside of a suit jacket, Nick opined:

Particularly important if one's a lady in a gent's suit, of course, because that's one of the most lovely sights available to the interested genders and should be displayed to fullest advantage without biro-shaped extras.

To which Haus quick as a flash responded:

If any woman even *thinks* about daring to disrupt the enjoyment of the male gaze by disturbing the line of their for-our-entertainment gentlemen's suits, I for one will beat the shit out of them.

Which gets me thinking. As far as lascivious comments go, where does Nick's lie on a scale of, say, one to ten? Is he wrong to suggest that women wearing particular clothes can be attractive to their admirers (of whatever sex) and should be encouraged without interruptions, such as biros? Is that basically blokeish and sexist? How on Earth does Nick, in the common parlance, "get a shag" if he goes around talking like this? Or was Haus over-reacting by responding to Nick in a manner that looked as though he thought Nick was being sexist? Do comments about the physical attractiveness of others automatically devalue the other person? Does Haus ever make comments about the physical attractiveness of others? And if not, how does he, to resort to common parlance once again, ever "get a shag"?

What about you? Do you like being told you look as fit as a butcher's dog when wearing a West Bromwich Albion 1974 away strip? Do you determine attractiveness purely through personality and intellect? Or would you shag the crack of dawn if you could get up early enough, regardless of what he/she looked like or how *nice* they were, like inside?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:34 / 11.07.02
I think the question might well be how does one negotiate sex without comments like that?

Perhaps something a little more cautious...

"Excuse me, but I'm immensely attracted to your independence and vitality, as reported to me by others who actually know you, because I do not, of course, go by mere appearances but require a deeper and more acceptable witness of worth: on the basis of the foregoing and with the greatest of respect, I would relish the opportunity to purchase for you some form of beverage which, though theoretically intoxicating, will in and of its singular self not imepede your judgement of my personality, which, though of course formed under the influences of the prevailing heteropatriarchy and thus irrevocably flawed, is nonetheless a match for the physical magnificence you see before you, and to which I now draw your attention, thus setting aside the normal social constraints regarding the act of looking in a public place. In short, to quote a popular if reprehensible song of some years back, "I've noticed you around, and I find you very attractive", though I would not, naturally, be so bold as to complete the stanza without first learning your feelings on this matter, and I shall therefore remove myself to the third boothe on the left of the sound stage to give you due time for consideration. Should you wish to pursue my offer, please return the card I have placed at a respectable distance from you on the bar."

Oh, the romance.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:37 / 11.07.02
OH, now that would be political correctness gone MAD!

MAD, I TELL YOU! MAAAAADD!

Jeeeee-zus.
 
 
Ganesh
09:54 / 11.07.02
Hmm. It did sound sort of sleazy, in a rather self-consciously Leslie Phillips-esque 'my, you're a fine young filly' kind of way...

Online commentaries are, of course, only tangentially related to Real Life shag-seeking behaviour. Or so I was told the last time I attempted to touch my. boy. friend's tits with my claw while inserting my penis in his ear. Huggling all the while.
 
 
Sax
10:06 / 11.07.02
Given that the other thread had kind of descended into a faux-"guide to being a gentleman bounder" type affair, perhaps "rather self-consciously Leslie Phillips-esque" is the right way to describe Nick's comments.

Do you like being told you're attractive? In another thread, Ariadne made a passing comment of being hailed in the street by an attractive young man, who turned out to be Ganesh. No complaints there. Haus, should you happen to wander into a Blake's 7 convention and be mobbed by screaming Avon fans after your teflon underwear, would you feel affronted?

Has anyone been on the end of some "physical attractiveness" comments that made them distinctly uncomfortable?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
10:16 / 11.07.02
"Has anyone been on the end of some "physical attractiveness" comments that made them distinctly uncomfortable?"

we've been here before i think. but the answer is yes - i've had men do the 'hey baby' thing to me and a violent neighbour once commented on how he'd like to 'spend some time with me' and it sounded more like a threat than a compliment. it is also quite perplexing when it happens as i'm such a screaming dyke that they can't possibly think i'd be interested. and it always concerns me that once they realise i'm queer then i could be in for verbal or physical threats. i got chatted up on a bus once by a woman, which i was in the mood to find flattering, but i wouldn't always wish for this kind of intrusion. i like to be left alone. and i really do find it far more comfortable if, say, i get pm'd by a fellow barbeperson who wants to chat or meet up because they're interested in what i have to say. to be found artistically or intellectually interesting is marvellous.
 
 
Ganesh
10:26 / 11.07.02
Mmm. I'm not used to being called "attractive" (other than by my own lovely ZoCher, of course) and initially reacted to Ariadne's passing compliment with mild bemusement. Very flattered, though, particularly as Ariadne herself is a fine young filly who could happily disrupt the lining of my pinstripe pocket...

So... yeah, being complimented on one's physical appearance is nice but, if it's a rare occurence, can be a little flustering. Perhaps that's why many of us fall into semi-'ironic' Leslie Phillips-isms. Stephen Fry has practically build his career on it.
 
 
higuita
10:33 / 11.07.02
A major approach was by an ex-boss when I was but a wee whippersnapper on a saturday job.
I ran away at the time but now I think back and consider that, given I wasn't getting any at that point, why the hell didn't I just get on with it?

Funny old world. But in answer to your question - yes, it is perfectly acceptable to make comments about how sexy I am.

No but seriously folks (waves hands about deprecatingly) I'd say it all depends on context, boringly enough. Do I like you? Do you know me well enough to appreciate my buns in their fullest sense?

I was once told of a particularly useless form of female approach, which ignores all of these things. This is quite prevalent among some men although, to be fair, most of them are idiots.
It's called the 'fancy a fuck' approach. Apparently, sometimes you'll get slapped, sometimes beaten by unforesee boyfriends. But, in the right place, at the right time, you will get laid.
This approach probably applies to some men's approach to women (don't ask me how it all works, I find it all very difficult and am constantly amazed I have a girlfriend at all).
I'd guess it goes...

Compliment enough of them, and you'll get a response. Women like compliments, you see. they like to be told how pretty they are, and then they'll let you fuck them.

Crap as I am at doing the body language thing, even I tend to have a vague idea if a compliment is welcome or not. But if you're asking the question that lies in the topic abstract, then you're not thinking about it from the point of view of most people who will pay compliments regardless of whether they're wanted.

So, in brief, the answer is

sometimes
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:48 / 11.07.02
Has anyone been on the end of some "physical attractiveness" comments that made them distinctly uncomfortable?

Well, the other day I was told that I'm "funny-looking."

Oh, you meant positive comments.
 
 
that
11:07 / 11.07.02
Don't think I've ever been on the end of positive 'physical attractiveness' comments that made me uncomfortable, or even that occurred outside the confines of an involvement. Was mistaken for a prostitute once, but that's not really the same thing, is it? I think it's ok to make remarks about physical attractiveness, within the confines of an involvement of some description, but fairly pointless as a way to *start up* a conversation or whatever... but I've never done the whole picking people up in bars thing, so maybe its the only way - harder to say 'my, you have a delightfully wrinkly brain, I bet you are very intelligent'. But I don't do it, and would be very confused by it from someone I did not know.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:41 / 11.07.02
Wrong.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:51 / 11.07.02
So traditional male sexist thinking is that a woman only has value in terms of her sexual attractiveness. This sexual attraction is so overpowering that it justifies violence and abuse.

Ironically, haus amusing caricature of Nick works on the premise that, by admitting to finding pleasure in looking at women, sexual desire is so overwhelming as to preclude all else.

I find it quite easy to be sexually attracted to someone and treat them in a non objectifying way. After you've met enough women in skin tight pvc dresses while on speed, its an attitude you really have to learn.....
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:52 / 11.07.02
Monkey: God, so wrong. Haus and I rub each other up the wrong way because we're alike enough for our glaring differences to result in, um, glaring.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:01 / 11.07.02
Partly so. But in this specific instance it's that I maintain that it is perfectly possible to express an appreciation of the attractiveness of another person or a particular aesthetic without either becoming a Millie Tant caricature or being a filthy uncle.

The original statement was not annoying because it commented on how good women look in men's suits. It was the instruction that women should behave in a particular way in the treatment of their men's suits in order to provide greater pleasure for the viewing public. Different things.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:11 / 11.07.02
But the "instruction" was clearly ironic, wasnt it?

oh my god, Im justifying leering with an invocation of "irony". Please, someone shoot me in the head before I become a Maxim buying, lager swilling, car obsessed new lad.

shit, I am a lager swiller....
 
 
Sax
13:16 / 11.07.02
1) There are some very interesting articles in Maxim.

2) Lager is very nutritional.

3) I am car obsessed. The fucker cost me £600 last month.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:21 / 11.07.02
1) There are some very interesting articles in Maxim.

God, things sure are different over in the UK.
 
 
Sax
13:31 / 11.07.02
That'll be your sarcasm there, then.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
13:32 / 11.07.02
I have always been atonishingly attractive. Nobody understands what a burden it is... When people compliment me on my good looks, I just yawn and ignore it. It is, after all, simply a statement of the obvious, tinged with concupiscent envy.
 
 
Sax
13:35 / 11.07.02
" I have always been atonishingly attractive."

Are you drunk?

If you are, you might fancy me.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:38 / 11.07.02
The original statement was not annoying because it commented on how good women look in men's suits. It was the instruction that women should behave in a particular way in the treatment of their men's suits in order to provide greater pleasure for the viewing public.

If you read iszabelle's posts, you will notice that attention is given to the look. S/he is talking about a visually pleasing ensemble, not a utility belt. In other words, whoever the viewing public might be, this is already in part for their benefit. That being the object, I added a piece of advice once given me about gent's suits by a pro tailor. And given the nature of the thread so far, I did so in a playful, sexual way.

The only thing I felt uncomfortable with was that somewhat sleazy (sorry, sleaze) tone - but then I re-read the thread and realised that it was already awash with cucumber and lube jokes. And finally, as most people seem to have realised, it was rather more Leslie Phillips than Sid James. However much I try, it seems, I can't quite play it straight.

And Haus, just once, why don't you let one of the women object before you do? It's not like they're not capable of expressing their irritation when they feel the need.
 
 
bitchiekittie
13:51 / 11.07.02
ok, this is going to go over really well, but Im going to put my half a cent in as well. but not before admitting I have not read the offending (?) comments thread, so keep in mind that my response is out of context with the whole of it

while I think you should keep comments directed at specific people to a fairly subdued minimum (as opposed to verbally pouncing every person on the street with sonnets about their bits), I also cannot see anything wrong with admiring another persons form. telling someone you are not familiar with in that way that you admire their looks is rude not because noticing or even commenting is in some way devaluing the person, but rather because it is pretty damn assumptive.

in the past Ive mentioned this, and it always turns into a "penis in ear!" shitflinging episode. however, rather than going along with the self-loathing flow brought onto many people, particularly women, via media portrayals of 'perfect' people that, frankly, most of us will never be (nor, with what such an endeavor entails, would want to), and society, who seem to largely agree. Ive personally made an effort to really appreciate my body, the way it looks and feels. I resent the fact that such pleasure seems to be seen as a negation or disregard of any non-physical worth.

again, I think that there are times and places for everything. and that, in general, walking up to someone you are unfamiliar with and commenting on their parts is presumptuous. and I also think that placing serious value on appearance is a waste. however, theres a lot of beauty in the human form - dressed, bare, decorated, scarred, smooth, whichever you admire most. and expressing that admiration is in itself as harmful as commenting on any other lovely creature or object
 
 
bitchiekittie
13:53 / 11.07.02
goddamnit. that took me far too long to write, and I missed half of the comments made in the interim, sorry
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:58 / 11.07.02
....because the natural image is naturally of Don Quixote standing before the maiden.

This is where that grown-up cranapple they're selling these days is so tremendously useful. It may be possible that infelicities of language are unisex, or more precisely their value, comedy or otherwise, is not restricted to adherents to a particular "interested gender".

AS for the rest, perhaps this is a question of culture. I am struggling to believe that anybody fails to realise that putting things in suit pockets ruins the line. And I see no reason whatsoever why this should be more the case for women than men, or more precisely why women should feel obliged in particular to adhere to this practice. Except, of course, that that is what Leslie Philips would do. Which is fair enough, but you may want to work a little on your impression.

Now, so far I have spent - what? - five posts dealing with the usual "political correctness gone bad" flannel at a time when there may actually be a half-interesting discussion going on in the Head Shop, so if you children could amuse each other, I promise to pop back tomorrow and be duly chastened.

To answer the question, I have very few problems with people commenting on my physical attractiveness. Generally it doesn't happen until I am friends with and/or comfortable with people, which perhaps points to a very straitened social circle. Then again, I am unlikely to be made to feel threatened if I do not respond flirtatiously and gratefully to such observations. The question "Is it okay to make remarks about physical attractiveness? Or not" is in itself as vague as "Is it okay to make remarks about blackness/wealth/poverty? Or not?".
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:33 / 11.07.02
I am struggling to believe that anybody fails to realise that putting things in suit pockets ruins the line.

Champagne with your revolution, milord?
 
 
higuita
14:49 / 11.07.02
You wouldn't believe how many people do it. Some people even put mobile phones in the external pockets.



Bastards.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:51 / 11.07.02
Am I the only one to be slightly titillated by Haus' repeated demands that Nick suck on his grown-up juice?
 
 
Cherry Bomb
22:17 / 11.07.02
No.
 
 
The Apple-Picker
23:00 / 11.07.02
Absolutely not. Or Nick's statement about rubbing each other up.
 
 
The Apple-Picker
23:00 / 11.07.02
Even if it is the wrong way.
 
 
Logos
01:59 / 12.07.02
I'm so stunningly good looking that I'm forced to dash a beaker of sulfuric acid in my face first thing every morning just so the rest of you aren't struck blind in the streets by my radiant appearance.

Unfortunately, my language is frelling atrocious, and scares small mammals.
 
  
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