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"Youthful Urban Radicalism" to be terrorism?

 
 
w1rebaby
08:09 / 11.07.02
The European Union repeatedly stated over the past few months that activists would not fall under the new anti-terrorist legislation. The distinction between political activists and terrorists would not be blurred. New proposals from Spain, the current EU-Presidency, however show different.

According to Spain, the European Member States have noticed 'a gradual increase at various European Union summits and other events, in violence and criminal damage orchestrated by radical extremist groups, clearly terrorising society'. In the eyes of Spain, these actions from activists against globalisation are without doubt terrorist activities. They are the work of 'a loose network hiding behind various social fronts', by which Spain mean 'organisations taking advantage of their lawful status to aid and abet the achievements of terrorist groups' aims'.

According to the Spanish proposal, 'violent urban youthful radicalism is increasingly being used as a cat's-paw by terrorist groups in order to achieve their criminal aims'. Therefore Spain wants to introduce a standard form for exchanging information on these 'terrorist incidents'. The information must be exchanged between Member States and Europol. Spain wants to use the BDL-network to exchange the information. This network belongs to the 'bureaux des liaisons', the network of intelligence liaisons in the Member States.

The aim of the information exchange is to 'help prevent such situations arising at summits and other events arranged by various international organisations', as well as 'the prosecuting of violent urban youthful radicalism'. The European Working Group on Terrorism, in which experts from law enforcement and intelligence agencies responsible for combating terrorism in each Member State participate, studies the proposal of Spain...

(do you want to know more?)

---

While this is just a proposal at this stage, it will be interesting to see how other governments react to it - something worth watching.

Could there be a more transparent use of anti-terrorist legislation to counteract legitimate protest? Because if some protesters are "violent", possibly because they have been attacked by the police, then you can bet everyone even remotely connected will turn into a target.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:18 / 11.07.02
Its scary fridge and sounds all too predictable. One question though, is there a conflict between this kid of use of anti terrorism law and Human Rights law (both in the EU and the UK)?

It sounds like it might be argued to infringe on freedom expression. And quite convincingly.
 
 
w1rebaby
13:55 / 11.07.02
I'm not sure of exactly how the ECHR addresses this. The thing is, the basic proposal is just a format for "information sharing" between member countries on a wider variety of groups, which in itself I don't think challengable by the ECHR.

However, once the structure is in place, I can see it being used for the purposes it's designed for i.e. harassment and surveillance. While these individual acts might be challengeable, that would be too late. Even if a few activists manage to win cases, that won't change behaviour or make it any more difficult to get away with.

As well as that, this sort of move seems aimed at making it commonly accepted that protest movements are connected with terrorism, so that it becomes considered "fair suspicion" when governments keep tabs on them. I'm sure there will be some high-profile exposes of groups who had a member who once met bin Laden's second cousin's cat, etc, to "prove" that this sort of behaviour is reasonable. With that sort of attitude, legal challenges would become harder.

I think any challenge would have to come now, on the basis of possible future abuse, rather than later - but possible abuse is pretty hard to prove. At least anti-terrorist fervour hasn't quite reached boiling point with the EU public.
 
 
Fist Fun
14:00 / 11.07.02
The aim of the information exchange is to 'help prevent such situations arising at summits and other events arranged by various international organisations', as well as 'the prosecuting of violent urban youthful radicalism'.
Sounds perfectly reasonable. There is no place for violence at summit protests. Hugely counterproductive. Just hope that this rigour approach to non-violence applies to police and protestors equally. Or are you suggesting that the legislation will be used for something other than the prevention of violence?
Seems a bit like the anti-hooligan laws used in the UK to stop "suspect" fans going to football tournaments. How do you feel about them Fridge/Lurid?
 
 
w1rebaby
14:15 / 11.07.02
Just hope that this rigour approach to non-violence applies to police and protestors equally.

if that happens, I will eat myself with chutney

Or are you suggesting that the legislation will be used for something other than the prevention of violence?

yes

I'm suggesting, nay, predicting that the legislation will be used to share surveillance information on any sort of protest group that can be possibly associated, however distantly, with "violence" - in other words, anyone connected with anti-capitalism, animal rights, anarchism... - as well as create a political and legal climate where that surveillance is legitimised. The surveillance will not be in order to prevent violence, but to protect the interests of the state.

Probably, to them, this sort of challenge is as or more destabilising as violent action (I get the impression that whenever someone throws a brick, politicians chuckle and rub their hands, and certainly the police are instructed in such a way as to provoke violence) so it makes sense, but from a citizen's perspective it don't.

Seems a bit like the anti-hooligan laws used in the UK to stop "suspect" fans going to football tournaments. How do you feel about them Fridge/Lurid?

I disliked them at the time and I still do. I don't think they would hold up under modern human rights legislation. Depriving someone of the right to free movement without trial is surely illegal. Luckily, they were so specialised and limited that they didn't cause much trouble, but they were in principle wrong.
 
 
Fist Fun
14:42 / 11.07.02
I'm suggesting, nay, predicting that the legislation will be used to share surveillance information on any sort of protest group that can be possibly associated, however distantly, with "violence" - in other words, anyone connected with anti-capitalism, animal rights, anarchism... - as well as create a political and legal climate where that surveillance is legitimised.


Right, fair enough. So how have you come to this prediction? What leads you to the conclusion that the proposal is some sort of trojan horse? A hunch? I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, after all you paint a pretty scary picture, but can you share your reasoning?
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:44 / 11.07.02
While I agree with you, fridge, about anti-hooligan laws there is a case to be made that they have been fairly effective. Lets suppose for a moment that the UK government, say, has no interest in political repression and really just wants to stop the undeniable violence that occurs at many large protests.

Isn't it justified in taking measures akin to the anti-hooligan laws? If not, what measures would be effective and fair?

I don't like the Governments attitude to rights, "You can trust us, we won't abuse this erosion of your rights". However, many protesters seem to casually dismiss violent protest as something not worth worrying about - thats a position I also feel uncomfortable with.
 
 
Jackie Susann
07:25 / 12.07.02
"Lets suppose for a moment that the UK government, say, has no interest in political repression and really just wants to stop the undeniable violence that occurs at many large protests."

In what way would that not be political repression?

It's only political repression if they erode the rights of nice fluffy liberal activists I could bring to dinner at my parents place?

The only people who engage in violence at summits really are terrorists, who are, in fact, easily and objectively distinguished from legitimate protestors, such that one can easily aim countermeasures at them?

Violence at demos is perpetrated by individuals (choose one: a) ringleaders b) drunken troublemakers c) professional ratbags) and if those individuals are weeded out anyone will be fine (see, for example, Italian police weeding out the ringleaders at the local indymedia centre at Genoa, etc.)?
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:09 / 12.07.02
I totally agree with the fact that violent protesters are hard to separate. Of course they aren't terrorists, but I think violence should be dealt with, especially as it serves to undermine the purpose of a protest.

But are you saying that because of this inseparability and the need to defend civil liberties that Governments and the Police should take little action to prevent violent protest? What would be a reasonable response on the part of the police?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:54 / 12.07.02
Mass resignation? Joining the protest? Storming Westminster and demanding an end to domestic and international oppression and inequality? Take your pick... 'Reasonable' is not an absolute term.

On the subject of "violent" protest versus "non-violent" protest, I've not read a better or more convincing article than this. Here's a taste:

The pacifist-identified activists I’ve argued with have all had a serious problem with failing to take a critical perspective to what gets called violence and what doesn’t. They often make the argument that we must resist any opportunity to start violence, because once we “bring it to that level” there is no turning back and we justify violent response from the state. These arguments rely on an assumption that violence isn’t already present and integral the global situation, that it isn’t already at “that level.” They are forgetting or missing the fact that people are already dying in this struggle: starving, being made homeless, having their lands and cultures stolen and stripped, being raped, killed, enslaved, tortured and imprisoned, being denied healthcare, etc. When people who do not directly experience, and may in fact benefit from, the US government’s war on the poor and people of color domestically and worldwide suggest that activists taking up arms initiates violence, they rely on an unacceptable denial of how violence permeates life in this country. This is particularly troubling when it comes from activists who are familiar with current life-threatening and life-taking actions of the government and private sector, but selectively forget when they admonish their fellow activists not to respond with violence or property destruction.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:39 / 12.07.02
I know that our governments engage in violence. I thought the idea was that these violent means are to be deplored, not adopted for a more righteous cause. Besides, I just don't see how one realistically uses violence abroad to justify property damage at home.

If a mate of mine is made homeless, I don't think it justifies me smashing up shops or beating up a policeman. In many ways, that is precisely the kind of attitude I want to fight against. Otherwise we just replace a bunch of conservative immoral governments with a bunch of leftie immoral governments.

This isn't self defence we are talking about, its the abandonment of peaceful protest in a democracy - yes, Im saying that with a straight face - for a violent protest in its stead. Struggling for a better politiical world isn't just about being more right than your opponents, its also about doing things in a better way. I condemn all violence, not just the violence of my political opponents.

BTW - the "reasonable" comment was to invite comment. Its a knee jerk reaction of mine when I hear a criticism of the government to ask what an alternative policy might be.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:04 / 12.07.02
Violence is a last resort. But it is a resort, nonetheless.
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:33 / 12.07.02
I'm not a pacifist. But I fail to see how smashing in a Macdonalds window is an act of "last resort". I konw who my sympathies lie with - the protesters - but I think that my side should be better than the oppposition. Otherwise., what is there to fight for?
 
 
Jackie Susann
01:41 / 16.07.02
'I totally agree with the fact that violent protesters are hard to separate. Of course they aren't terrorists, but I think violence should be dealt with, especially as it serves to undermine the purpose of a protest.'

actually, i don't think we agree about anything in this paragraph. to me, it reads like you are saying 'i have decided what the one true purpose of a protest is, and therefore can identify 'violence' (as perpetrated by a hard-to-define minority) as undermining this purpose. this is a problem which must be dealt with, preferably by governments (who i presume are entirely sympathetic to the 'purpose' of protest).'

what about, say, the tute bianchi in italy declaring war on genoa? now, the tute bianchi have dissolved, and many involved would probably agree in hindsight that this was a doomed tactic. but it pretty much mushes up, for mine, the idea that there's a purpose to protest which violence is outside. what if violence is part of the protest? what if it becomes part of the protest when cops attack you and you're forced to defend yourself? what if you arm yourself in advance in case that happens?
 
 
Naked Flame
08:26 / 16.07.02
I don't want to argue the toss on this one, but I'm avowedly anti-violence.

Worked for Gandhi, didn't it?

I'd like to see a concrete example of when violence initiated by activists has achieved, rather than obstructed, meaningful change, because I can't think of any at the mo.

Leaving aside for a moment the moral dimension of the question, how is violence supposed to be effective? Is it a fight you can win? The state will almost always be better armed than the protestor, and have access to manpower, training and expertise that protestors won't have. Simply by refusing to employ violent methods, activists can turn that overwhelming opposing force into an idealogical advantage- Gandhi again.
 
 
BioDynamo
13:49 / 16.07.02

"Worked for Gandhi, didn't it?"

If you are ignoring the moral questions, then your case for non-violence (unfortunately) isn't very strong, for several reasons.

1) the campaign for the independence of India (and Pakistan/Bangladesh) was not non-violent. Gandhi's part of the movement was, but the movement as a whole used a variety of tactics, including "terrorism" (or "freedom fighters bombing the imperialist oppressors", depending on your point of view).

2) other movements that can be claimed to have been successful for at least some time have used massive amounts of violence and been very successful. The French revolution of the bourgeois, the American revolution for independence from the British, various fascist, nationalist, capitalist, communist and anarchist uprisings, struggles, wars and what-have-yous. Some of them have been successful.

I think a diversity of tactics and strategies is what makes a good, strong movement. As does internal respect for various choices of tactics. Maybe the best time I've had was in the Tute Bianche-block in Prague 2000, an event that gave different groups the possibilities to act in the ways they felt most comfortable.

Internal solidarity between the groups is maybe the only thing that makes it possible to resist the criminalisation of "our" movement. And the groups that forget that an injury to one is an injury to all, well, I'm not sure they ever were part of any movement.
 
 
Fist Fun
16:14 / 16.07.02
What practical good can come from violence? If you were sufficiently convinced in the right of your cause then violence could be an option to put in place a new system. We aren't in that scenario though.
The ANC started out using violence but then moved to non-violence simply because it was the most effective way of bringing about change. I can't see any positive change coming through violence.
 
 
Jackie Susann
03:43 / 17.07.02
"What practical good can come from violence?"

You could stop you and your friends getting beaten up by the police. You could stop fascists terrorising migrants. You could rip down the fence to a concentration camp. You could disrupt a summit devoted to capitalist planning, imperialism and exploitation.

'Positive' change might be relative, but there are plenty of pretty uncontroversial examples of violence making things better. Timor Leste's independence, for example. It wouldn't have happened just because guerillas were fighting Indonesian troops, but it would't have happened without those battles.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:41 / 17.07.02
Hmmm. The purpose of protest...

I should probably make clear that I am talking about protest in the context of our Western democracies. Things are different outside a democracy or if a section of the population is denied the vote. Revolution has its place of course, violence and all, but I just think it is hard to justify in modern democracy. People I've met in the UK who argue for revolution seem to reject democracy on the grounds of political dissent. I find that scary.


In my view, the purpose of protest is to bring attention to and demonstrate solidarity about an issue or set of political issues. This is the extent to which I have decided what protest is really about but I'm sure that we don't agree about it.

In this sense violence brings attention to a protest, which one would think would be advantageous, except that the subsequent publicity becomes focused on the violence rather than any politics.

DPC's examples of violence are about self defence, entirely justifiable, and tearing down fences in concentration camps. This last is also justifiable and I'm sure that I would concede the case in lots of situations. I just think that it needs some justification and I'm always reluctant about it. I'm also uncomfortable that, far from being a last resort, people seem to see violent action as the first thing to do. In a pressing situation, like a concentration camp, that is reasonable. However, I've never really been convinced by the abandonment of democratic methods of some anarchists, for example.


Of course, a protest might also be an expression of anger but I really have no trouble condemning that. But this raises an intriguing point for me. To what extent are people talking about protest of a particular political flavour? Are we upset that the police infiltrate and try to disrupt right wing groups? Probably not. But I tend to think, naively perhaps, that the law and the police should try to politically blind.
 
 
BioDynamo
20:48 / 17.07.02
Lurid, you say that you agree with a direct action which consists of tearing down a fence in a concentration camp (I assume you include such refugee camps as Woomera in Australia under this heading). At the same time you would, apparently, condemn the same action if done in anger. Am I understanding you correctly?

If the people doing the "tearing down"-action are white activists from a privileged background, they could probably keep a distance from the horrors of a camp and do the tearing down of fences without anger or passion. However, the people directly affected by the fence, the people on the inside, if they are the ones taking the action, would they be expected to keep the same calm, the same distance from the event as their privileged well-doers? Probably not. Does that make their protest less valuable, more condemnable? If so, why?

Also, if the privileged who are not locked into camps were to use methods and passion that the people they are showing solidarity with would agree with, and would use themselves if they were not under-privileged, repressed, guarded and imprisoned, is that a problem? Why?

The movement of the last few years, pretty much starting with Seattle, has been acting on the premises that we live in a global world, where many people are oppressed. It has also taken as a basis for various actions the requests of the Zapatista comandancia of Chiapas, Mexico, that the people inspired by their writings and actions not limit themselves to "traditional" solidarity work such as sending money, bandages, TV-teams, but instead feel a part of and take part in a global movement, demanding global rights.

They know that the rights of the indigenous people in Chiapas are not the only rights to be fought for, and they know that a global movement and global actions are required to change things in a relevant way, since that is the level of the power oppressing them. This is most clearly said in the communiqués of Subcommandante Marcos, The Seven Loose Pieces of the Global Jigsaw Puzzle, analyzing the way the first and third world coexist side by side in every city in the world.

Of course, if we axcept this analysis, we axcept that in some circumstances, strong struggle may be necessary, both in direct action to affect situations and solidarity with the situations of others.

I also feel there are much more important issues to discuss than that of violence/non-violence, for instance whether it is more important for the "Youthful Urban Radicalist" people in Western Europe/North America to act directly to improve situations of oppression that face themse or in solidarity with the struggles of others? Do we concentrate on cannabis legalisation or water privatisation? Both, of course, but to what degree? If the people in Cochabamba, Bolivia, stop the privatisation of their water by rioting for months, what do we do to support them: send a fax, make a demonstration, a blockade, an office occupation, a riot? Which would the people that "we" are acting in solidarity with appreciate the most? Who are the people in Cochabamba that we are in solidarity with: the rioters in the street, the labour unionists, the labour union bosses, the radical parties, the social democratic parties, the NGOs?

This is the world we live in, and I personally find it very hard to offhand condemn all violence. In nearly all situations, there are better alternatives than violence, yes. I will criticize the people who use it, both publicly and privately, but not condemn it. The people who are angry, who feel strongly, they are the essence of any movement, violent or not. If you condemn them, you are splitting up the protesters into Good Guys and Bad Guys, and that is not a proper representation of the movement, in my opinion.
 
 
Jackie Susann
00:42 / 18.07.02
'In my view, the purpose of protest is to bring attention to and demonstrate solidarity about an issue or set of political issues.'

I think this is the crux of our disagreement. I think that's one possible purpose for a protest - to be honest, I think it's a pretty crappy one. It's based on the assumption that all power is and should be on the side of government, and that the only way to achieve anything is to petition them for help. I am much more interested in direct action, in actually doing things, to wit, ripping open Woomera. (Which, incidentally, wasn't done in anger, but certainly wasn't rationally planned, on either side of the razor wire. But then I don't know you can call that 'protest' in any normal sense of the word.)

Hearty agreement with BioD that there are more important things to talk about than violence/nonviolence, but i'm stealing computer time and i gotta go now.
 
 
Lurid Archive
03:48 / 18.07.02
Anger was probably the wrong word to use, I meant something more like mindless violence. Mindless in the sense of an expression of anger with no deeper purpose than to cause damage - though I've heard people justify that also on anti-capatalist grounds.

Violence that is directed to achieving specific goals, like tearing down fences at Woomera, deserves to be labelled differently in my view. I'd call it direct action, perhaps. I'm interested in DPC's comment


It's based on the assumption that all power is and should be on the side of government, and that the only way to achieve anything is to petition them for help.

If you replace "all" with "a great deal of", then what you have is the principle behind democracy, no? I find a rejection of this principle unsettling, though I'll freely admit it is sometimes justifiable. But when?

Yes there are more important things to talk about than violence, but it is symptomatic of deeper issues.

BTW - The difference between condemnation and criticism comes up all the time, though I often use them more or less interchangeably.
 
 
Jackie Susann
05:57 / 19.07.02
'all power is and should be on the side of government'

'If you replace "all" with "a great deal of", then what you have is the principle behind democracy, no?'

Uh, no. It's closer to fascism or dictatorship, isn't it? Democracy, I thought, was supposed to be about the people having the power, and the government being a more or less useful tool for the exercise of that power.
 
 
Naked Flame
07:27 / 19.07.02
Nice to leave a thread for a couple of days and come back to some tasty head food.

Point very much taken about context. I'm still far from convinced that violence has a place in protest within our late-capitalist Western societies, but I'll accept that when it truly is a last resort, it's necessary.

The thing is, I'm of the opinion that violence begets violence. Not so much violence against property, which merely begets restrictive lawmaking, but violence against other sentient beings. Arguments such as the 'protecting your friends' example above sound to me like justification based on the 'they started it!' principle, which- let's face it- originates in the playground, even if it's an axiom beloved of many contemporary governments. I truly believe that violence is cyclical, and while this thread has reminded me of its occasional inevitability, it has not altered my core belief that violence is something to transcend wherever humanly possible.

The people who want to change the world are always going to be a tiny subset of the population as a whole, but the people who manage to pull it off are the people who can carry the rest of the populace with them.

It is very, very easy to alienate people through violent methods.

It is also- with the right power-base and ontological positioning- scarily easy to bring them on-side with violent methods.

Peace out.
 
 
BioDynamo
08:16 / 19.07.02

Flame: violence definitely begets violence, that is true. This is one of the reasons why I have a problem with people wanting to condem all violence and separate, "weed out" the "violent groups" in our movement. Because this thing works both ways: some people meet violence from the state, the global Empire or whatever. They become angry, and reply in kind. This is not a justification, but a description of what I see happening. To try to separate these people from a movement would be destructive to the movement. I believe in allowing these angry people a space in the street, like everyone else, and talking to them, explaining that the opposition will always have more guns, therefore violence, while an option, will usually be a very very bad option.

And yes, I agree totally on that violence is something that should be transcended whenever possible. If not for any other reason, then for the one that "we" will get beaten up. Of course, sometimes we will get beaten up anyway.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:41 / 19.07.02
DPC: True, but the government acts on behalf of the people.
My point being that part of democracy involves accepting the wishes of the majority,
even if they are contrary to your own. And those wishes are carried out by the government.
 
 
Naked Flame
10:56 / 19.07.02
Bio- yeah, the 'weeding out' concept is problematic. Once violence becomes an acceptable option it's hard to go back.

I would like to think that essentially sentient beings are peaceable, and that violence is the aberration. One look out of the window disabuses me of that notion though. Like the rest of the shit we're in, I think we just have to change it one person at a time...

gosh, I'm a long way from the abstract here.

So, how would one best oppose these proposals, were they to become the official line?
 
 
Jackie Susann
04:22 / 21.07.02
'True, but the government acts on behalf of the people.'

Yeah, in magic democracy fairy land.

'Arguments such as the 'protecting your friends' example above sound to me like justification based on the 'they started it!' principle'

Nonono - it's not a justification, it's not an argument about who's right or wrong, it's what you do. When the cops are attacking you or your friends, your response has basically nothing to do with whether violence begets violence or whatever political position on violence you have, any more than if somebody picks a fight in a pub you calmly think about whether violence will really solve anything. The only question is tactical. Am I in a position to fight back, or will that make things worse? If you even get to think that much.

Another example from Woomera. When we got to the fence on Friday night, all the politics disappeared. There was no thinking about your ideology, whether you were a pacifist. At a certain point the only thing you can think about was: How can I get people out? And people went to work. Some people were prying open the bars, some people were blockading around them to keep the cops back, some people were trying to hide escapees in the crowd or swap clothes with them or whatever, some people were physically fighting the cops (and not altogether unsuccessfully). It had nothing to do with any ideas about violence or nonviolence - it's a non question in any practical situation.

I don't accept at all pacifism as a principle. I do not think peace is automatically better than violence and that violence is 'sometimes necessary' but should be avoided at all costs or anything like that. It's a tactical question, totally.
 
 
Naked Flame
17:23 / 21.07.02
The only question is tactical. Am I in a position to fight back, or will that make things worse? If you even get to think that much.


Y'see, my response, my gut response, the one that comes without thinking, is 'what can I do to stop people getting hurt here?'

In a real sense, you're right, as that response of mine is also a tactical call.

I don't think you and I are gonna end up agreeing on the pacificism issue, Crunchy... it's not that there's some sort of holy taboo about violence, I accept that it happens, but I think that the cost (human/moral/ideological) is prohibitively high and I've yet to encounter an argument that convinces me otherwise.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
17:28 / 21.07.02
FridgeMagnet wrote:
"I'm suggesting, nay, predicting that the legislation will be used to share surveillance information on any sort of protest group that can be possibly associated, however distantly, with "violence" - in other words, anyone connected with anti-capitalism, animal rights, anarchism... - as well as create a political and legal climate where that surveillance is legitimised."

This is, of course, not to say that governments don't already keep tabs on groups that oppose their interests. Very likely they're keeping a close eye on message boards like this one, trying to make sure all our talk about the way things should be done and how to achieve said aims remains just that: talk. Of course, the Catch-22 is that they also employ agent provocateurs who are manipulative enough of perfectly legitimate dissatisfaction with the structure, graduating it into ill-conceived "statements" that of course are also traps. And we're about to see a resurgence of such in the private sector, what with the citizen snitch brigades paid to disrupt any burgeoning solidarity. The game has been made purposefully complex and redundant, and one wonders when the wave of US *emigration* will commence when enough people decide the benefits of remaining domestic are outweighed by the sacrifices. Take with them the "real" America, or at least its lessons, and start again somewhere else.
 
  
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