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Mathematical Truth. Privileged

 
 
Lurid Archive
12:20 / 10.07.02
Im interested in the status of maths and, in particular, mathematical truth. Its the sort of thing that gets brought up all the time and, without wanting to be an intellectual bully, Im interested in what people have to say about it.

For instance, it often gets ascribed the qualities of "universal truth" or some similar priveleged status that we allow for few other spheres of knowledge. Can tautology really be meaningful? Also, there is an accepted awe surrounding maths that accompanies a certain type of dismissiveness. So people say how much they respect the discipline while at the same time almost bragging about their ineptitude. Personally, I find both these attitudes quite curious.

For instance, I am often irritated at the way maths, for example Godel's Theorems, is used in arguments. Not that I object to the use per se, but that there is a carelessness that borders on disregard for the actual content. It is as if the mere mention of maths lends an easy air of respectability.

Then there is the feeling, seen especially in the magick, that maths is a great source of mystical symbolism. The film Pi, which in my view had extremely little to do with maths, is often referred to in this context. I find it hard to see the point of numerology of any flavour except as a tool for random assocation. Perhaps that is the point.


What do you think?
 
 
Fist of Fun
15:37 / 10.07.02
For instance, it often gets ascribed the qualities of "universal truth" or some similar priveleged status that we allow for few other spheres of knowledge. Can tautology really be meaningful?

I personally think that this is a result of a misunderstanding of the distinction between 'truth' and 'meaning/content'. (No, Lurid, not you before you start worrying.)

Logically correct tautological statements - as I understand it the essence of mathematics (at least, before you get to the really recherche stuff) - can not only undoubtedly be true but are very probably the only ones we know are true. This is why mathematics, rather than even the sciences, can have attributed to it a special degree or quality of 'truth'. Basically, you don't have to hedge it with caveats as to evidence, data collection and interpretation and hypothetical if outlandish circumstances where it might not be the case because of (say) a black hole next to you.

As to 'meaning/content', that's an entirely different question. I take that as having some reflection upon the physical world. If the mathematical statement is itself based upon a priori assumptions then unless you can find a physical situation where those assumptions hold true then it has no meaning. Even if you do find a factual situation where the assumptions hold true you only have the same degree of certainty that the assumptions hold true as you do for any other information - so it's meaningfulnes is just as limited as, say, the sciences.

Why the special reverence?
I guess because there is something about it that is quite mentally astonishing, whilst at the same time one can arrive at startling deductions which may appear to be magical to one who does not understand it. As to bragging about ineptitude whilst revering the discipline - this ain't just the case for maths! I can't walk and chew gum - I'm malcoordinated and I'm Proud! - but I definitely revere the physical abilities of ballet dancers.

As to the magick tendency to be impressed with numerology... Other than the fact that most of it is demonstrably barking (i.e. you can show just about anything you want with numerology, and they cannot all have meaning) I've always thought that people that believe in that stuff are weird anyway. Please don't misunderstand me - I don't think it's morally wrong to do so, just weird, ignoring all evidence to the contrary, and acting in a manner which I find difficult to understand.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:36 / 10.07.02
I've been told that the following cannot be maintained by anyone who has thought seriously about mathematics.

Mathematics is a game played according to certain simple rules with meaningless marks on paper.

Hilbert, David (1862-1943)


Hilbert was probably the greatest mathematician of his time and his influence, more than anyone's, has helped to shape modern pure mathematics....
 
 
Ierne
18:06 / 10.07.02
So people say how much they respect the discipline while at the same time almost bragging about their ineptitude. Personally, I find both these attitudes quite curious. – Lurid Archive

I'm actually quite ashamed of my mathematical ineptitude – It galls me that I'm an obviously intelligent person, yet I've never been able to comprehend Mathematics. Some people say it has to do with one side of the brain being "stronger" than the other, but I don't buy that.

To an extent I think the educational system I was exposed to at school had a bit to do with it; there was definitely various separations of "math-smart" kids and "reading-smart" kids, with this belief that to be good at one one must have to be bad in the other. Therefore the "reading-smart" kids were given different, "easier" math classes and the "math-smart" kids were given "easier" books to read.

From time to time I've considered taking a continuing education course in math, but I get nervous about it...
 
 
SMS
19:35 / 10.07.02
One of the reasons mathematics may generate a sense of awe is that we get to write it in crazy symbols you have trouble figuring out how to type on your keyboard. Set theorists use Hebrew letters, so anyone not aquainted with set theory will look at a paper dealing with it and won't even know how to stumble through the words, let alone understand what they mean.

Fist of Fun is right.

I've been told that the following cannot be maintained by anyone who has thought seriously about mathematics.

Mathematics is a game played according to certain simple rules with meaningless marks on paper.

Hilbert, David (1862-1943)


Who told you this? It sounds sensible to me.
 
 
6opow
00:05 / 11.07.02
It seems to me that it is not so much that math is a universal truth (if you mean true in all possible worlds, true in every interpretation, or whatever), but it is more like mathematics seems to hinge on the way our perceptions function as human beings. I mean by this that it seems that, even across cultures, wherever there is the perception of differentiation with respect to one thing and another, then there is the manifestation of number, and so, the potential are actuality of math. It does not matter if this is expressed impicitly or explicitly. It seems to me that the moment we see ourselves as different from everything else we have the notions of "one" and "two" (or most certainly more). Mathematics arises as a way of interpreting and working with this most basic way of percieving qua humans.

Tautology, it appears to me, can be meaningful, but it all depends on the domain of your discourse. Limited to mathematics alone (or logical discourse) tautologies certainly seem as merely playing games with meaningless symbols: if each statement in a given language is equivalent to every other statement (or entails every other statement), then all anyone does is express the same underlying (?--sentence, truth, reference, statement: shrug) over and over in novel and not so novel ways. However, if we go outside a rigid realm of discourse, and allow ourselves the opportunity to create universes of discourse (UD) which mix logic with reality, then the fun begins, and tautological equivalences take on the power of metaphor to move us to different ways of thinking and being in the world.

The problems you seem to have with Pi, Lurid, (and they are problems I've heard from other mathematicians) is that Pi does exactly that: it takes on seemingly discrete UD and brings them into a single UD which allows for the spontaneous generation of new metaphors which in turn lead to alternate interpretations of reality, which, we recall from above, stem from a basic recognition of difference between the self and the other.

Pi itself is full of mathematical imagery. There is the motif of the golden ratio, and other such interesting connections. In some ways, mathematics is used as a tool to create associations, but they are not random (and neither are the associations generated from numerology): it is a system (or structure) that we choose to interpret reality from within. This is to say, both numerology and mathematics are ways of correlating data (or information) in such a way that what emerges is a coherent picture of the incoherent reality: we enforce order onto the world because otherwise we could not even function.

You will also recall that the origins of the base of mathematics in the West is attributed to the Pythagoreans, and they were very much mystics!

I would suggest that some of your objections for certain uses of Godel's theorems stem from your unwillingless to allow the proof to speak in any other UD but that of logic (and mathematical logic). This is much like not allowing a French speaking individual to use their langauge in a non-french country! Certainly, we have to recognize that when we mix our UD up into new, more complex ones, we might loose some of the clarity and rigour of certain arguments (in the same way that some phrases loose some of their meaning in trnaslation from the original language into a different one), but that is the price to pay for creating novel interpretations of an ever expanding UD. More importantly, I think that life is never as tidy and ordered as we might like to think, and so, perhaps allowing Godel's proofs (for example) out of their small UD of logic and into wider ranges of discourse, we get a better feel for how the world might actually be, as opposed to our tidy explanations of how it actually is.

Cheers!
 
 
SMS
02:15 / 11.07.02
The problem with the French analogy is that French, like English, makes no claim to be nearly as precise as mathematics. A word in English, with ambiguous meaing, will have a comparably ambiguous meaning in French. But a theorem is perfectly unambiguous. Using mathematics outside the domain of pure math must always be regarded as an analogy, and not as an undeniable fact.

If we do this, we can read mod3's posts with interest, rather than horror.
 
 
Fist of Fun
08:19 / 11.07.02
Tautology, it appears to me, can be meaningful, but it all depends on the domain of your discourse. Limited to mathematics alone (or logical discourse) tautologies certainly seem as merely playing games with meaningless symbols: if each statement in a given language is equivalent to every other statement (or entails every other statement), then all anyone does is express the same underlying (?--sentence, truth, reference, statement: shrug) over and over in novel and not so novel ways.

Generally I agree, but it should be noted that if you take a surprisingly limited set of a priori assumptions then by using tautological statements - i.e. mathemetical deductions - you can come up with some astonishing new conclusions. Whilst this is, fundamentally, talking about the same underlying set of assumptions it is talking about different aspects of them.

However, if we go outside a rigid realm of discourse, and allow ourselves the opportunity to create universes of discourse (UD) which mix logic with reality, then the fun begins, and tautological equivalences take on the power of metaphor to move us to different ways of thinking and being in the world.

OK, here I disagree strongly. The moment you take a logical tautological statement and mix it with reality you stop it being a tautological statement. This is where the error starts slipping in. You have something that looks like a tautological statement, and is therefore given the same reverence of truth/certainty, but in reality is nothing of the kind.
"Behold, I have shown that the stock market has over the past 20 days followed the following formula. The formula proves that it will progress in the following ways, therefore I have proved that the stock market will progress in the following ways!"
Patent rubbish, but surprisingly popular - it's the basis of 'pattern recognition' stock picking ("hell, the graph tracking the FTSE looks like an inverted aardvark - let's bet the farm!") which, despite being regularly derided by anybody with a degree in economics or mathematics (or two brain cells) is regularly used by soon to be bankrupts.

I do admit - it is fun to take the image of one thing and shove it into an entirely new situation. If nothing else it makes one's mind go in directions it might not otherwise have thought of. But I do think it is a mistake to attribute any more meaning to it than it deserves - a superficial and, to a large degree, random association of otherwise unconnected things.
 
 
Fist of Fun
08:24 / 11.07.02
In some ways, mathematics is used as a tool to create associations, but they are not random (and neither are the associations generated from numerology)

Are we talking about number theory or numerology? The former is the branch of mathematics which studies the mathematical properties of numbers. The latter is all sorts of things, depending on which mystic you talk to, but generally includes such bizarre things as attempts to find mathematical patterns in the Bible and codes in Shakespeare's plays. Anybody with a bit of mathematical nous can find patterns in the Bible because it's so big there are going to be randomly produced patterns (and the bizarre thing is - they all tend to do it using the English versions, when the thing was originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic. I mean, how do they even think this could be meaningful!)

And when I say 'anybody with a bit of mathematical nous' - when I did A-level mathematics (age 16-18) our maths teacher showed us how to do it on a crude level with articles from the newspaper. Anything over 1,000 words and you can start having fun.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:34 / 11.07.02
While I agree with GDG that changing context and creating associations can be very fruitful, I think that there are some caveats. Fist of Fun and SMatthewStolte point to some, but I'm also thinking of Sokal and Bricmont's book about abuses of maths and science. They point to uses of maths that are incorrect and serve to obscure the point being made. Does this deliberately trade in on the reverence reserved for maths to make someone's analogy seem more weighty? Maybe.

Sokal and Bricmont have been accused of not allowing maths to be used in wider, more imaginative contexts. But then their criticisms tend to be based on the accuracy of the maths which seems to be largely irrelevant in this use of metaphor. I am reminded of the Woody Allen film, Sleeper, where the Diane Keaton chracter ends a poem by (unironically) describing how butterflies turn into caterpillars.

As for Pi. It is full of math imagery, but empty of math content. It is to maths what Indiana Jones is to archaeology and anthropology. Quite good fun though.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:35 / 11.07.02
Ierne: First of all I think you are absolutely right that an intelligent person should be able to do maths. Biological justfications for the culture separation between readers and adders are bogus, IMO. For the record, in case anyone is thinking it, the assertion that women are worse at maths is also utter rubbish.

Your experience with education is quite common. And as with furthering you education in any sphere, if you are interested then a relaxed attempt to learn will be worthwhile.

There are curious things to learning math, however. For instance, the math that is taught to most people tends to be rather dull. If math is like poetry, then most people experience years and years of grammar and spelling lessons. While that is worthy in a sense, it also takes all the joy out of it.

On top of that, understanding math can be a bit of a mystical experience, if I can say that in such magickal company. Instead of being steadily rewarded with effort, you end up staring at incomprehensibe symbols and concepts until suddenly the meaning becomes clear and somehow "obvious". Once you've understood a bit of math it becomes surprisingly easy, but the period of contemplation can be a bit barren.
 
 
6opow
18:59 / 11.07.02
On top of that, understanding math can be a bit of a mystical experience, if I can say that in such magickal company. Instead of being steadily rewarded with effort, you end up staring at incomprehensibe symbols and concepts until suddenly the meaning becomes clear and somehow "obvious".

I certainly agree with this. I have many memories of sitting in abstract algebra (groups and rings) and staring at the board thinking, "I'm not sure what the hell is going on here," but then, at some point it simply clicks. It is like you are staring at some icon, glyph, or otherwise religious/symbolic image when all of a sudden your mind "flips" and something is now there where before there was only incomprehension. This seems to me to be the way of mathematics, mysticism, and magick (and perhaps the way the mind functions in general). As a friend of mine told me (regarding magick), we often find things difficult to understand, but suddenly, we turn around and it is so easy, and we then see how simple it has always been. I remeber feeling this way about derivatives (or was it integrals?--both?) in calculus. Made zero sense at first, but once it clicks it is as easy as pi(e).

Now part of the concern I see expressed above is that of attempts made to somehow justify or otherwise bolster positions that are "non-scientific" by importing mathematics (or other scintific claims) into the argument. Certainly this is a shady practice. My own view is very much like SMatthewStolte's, "Using mathematics outside the domain of pure math must always be regarded as an analogy, and not as an undeniable fact." (I'd like to add that, personally, I feel there are no "undeniable facts," but merely facts that, for whatever reasons, we are less willing to consider as fictions). However, I see nothing wrong with forcing (haha--mathematical analogy!) certain structures of knowledge into functional mappings with other structures of knowledge. For me, being highly sceptical of any claims to universal truth, all systems of knowledge are what they are in and of themselves, but the actual structures themselves cannot be claimed to be true or false. Mathematics is, Quatum mechanics is, Relativity is, and Hebrew is. These are all examples of language games which opperate by their own rules; however, the rules themselves are neither true or false. So, I allow myself to combine and recombine language games while bearing in mind that nothing that comes out of any of this leads to knowledge that is any more or less "true" than the knowledge generated by the rules within the original structures. Does this make any sense to anyone?

I think (I hope), that what I said above goes towards answering Fist of Fun's strong disagreament with what I originally said. But allow me to expand on the idea a little. I tend to agree that tautologies, outside the UD where they exist as tautologies, become something else; however, in another sense, I feel that everything is equivalent to everything else; that is, in the way that I interpret the world (in the UD that I exist within) things are, in some sense, a unity. Again, the truth/certainty of a mathematical equivalence is only that way inside its domain, but outside it becomes metaphor/analogy, but in a still deeper sense, it remains tautological and/or remains metaphorical. However, here I run into a paradox in my own thought where I cannot accept my interpretation as certainly or absolutely true; that is, I always have to keep in mind that this is merely the way I choose to interpret reality, and not the way reality is. I suppose that this might be seen as somewhat Kantian (maybe?): there is a universal truth, but we are forever closed off from reaching it. Boo-hoo.

Finally (and perhaps this is why some people feel the need to tell me to "grow up"), I tend to feel that life is about fun and play--but not childish or adolescent fun--it is play that is engaged in with sincerity and seriouness (another paradox?). Why not create patterns and let them dance? Why not look for deeper or novel meanings? Why not allow ourselves the freedom to mix blue with yellow to get green? We only have a short time here on this earth, and instead of troubling ourselves with searching for an "absolute truth," which I feel we cannot reach, why not merely dance and play with the ways in which we interpret the multitude of expressions of this "hidden" truth?

But I suppose I've gone off quite far from the original topic...

Sigh.

"'Cause your mornings will be brighter: break the lines and tear up rules--make the most of a million times no."
~Bauhus

"Live the life you love, use a god you trust, and don't take it all too seriously."
~Love & Rockets
 
 
Lurid Archive
21:07 / 11.07.02
We've had this before, haven't we G.D.G., but in reading your posts I'm finding little to disagree with. I think we just have a different emphasis. I'm more of a pedant wanting to be as precise and solid as possible, you want to be more inspirational. But, in truth, you have to be both and it all depends on your preferences. Absolute truth, no such thing. But there are degrees of truth.

I like to play too. I think its more fun when it's also serious. But that just me.

This is getting way off topic though, isn't it? Ah well, whatever works...
 
 
6opow
21:44 / 11.07.02
[raises cold cup of coffee]

Cheers Lurid!

I think I get what you are saying (as much as anyone can understand what someone else is putting forth). But seriously, I'm really not pulling my view out of my ass and trying to get you all to take a good whiff, nor am I looking for "converts" (too much of an anarchistic base to my thinking for such garbage).

I do appreciate rigour (wouldn't have put myself through Logic I, II, and III if I didn't), but you are certainly right in saying I am more inspirational. Perhaps, in this sense, your emphasis on rigour can assist in balancing out my more free form style (again, things I like about this place), and vice-versa.

I'd agree that it is important to try to do both; however, it is really difficult sometimes, with such small exchanges, to get both rigour and vision across. Typically I opt for the latter, but I know I need to sometimes engage in the former. Again, it is difficult (I find anyway) to convey some ideas in both inspirational and pedantic fashion with out really writing a thirty to firty thousand word post about it. Who can do this and who would really take the time to read it carefully!?

I mean, for example, I think there are really good reasons to look at the structure of the universe as fractal under the assumption that the manifestings we experience occur as the result of an interaction between mutual disposition partners (via C. Martin's theory of dispositions). I didn't simply arive at this, but have made a careful and thoughtful study of Martin's theory, and compared it with writings on the properties of fractals. However, to attempt to adequately argue this is a book in waiting, and to really tie things together with other ideas I have, I likely need to write several books! But I can't do it here, and I can't do it yet (got a few more hoops to jump through still).

Perhaps we need only be a little more patient and forgiving with one and other ('we' generalized here) in order to start making real progress. Shrug. I'm up for it.

Way, way off topic now, but yes, whatever works!

Hey, are you, Lurid, up for a thread to discuss Godel's theorems in both a rigourous and visionary manner?
 
 
Lurid Archive
08:41 / 12.07.02
Right, mutual respect and all that. I won't dismiss you as talking gibberish and you won't dismiss me as lacking insight and we'll get along fine.

hmmm. I suppose I would be up for discussing Godel's Theorems. But it would be some work and I'm not sure about the level of interest...
 
  
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