BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Giving money to charity?

 
 
Fist Fun
09:40 / 10.07.02
Ten percent? Of what? Gross, net, disposal income? Do you have a responsibility not to get into debt in order to be able to give? How do you reconcile spending money on relative luxuries when huge inequalities exist globally?
Just been pondering the amount of money I give versus the amount I don't. Should the public good depend on individual generosity, or should the tax system be globally reformed? When you realise that is never going to happen what do you do as an individual?
 
 
SMS
18:39 / 10.07.02
This is really going to depend on your goals in life. "Should" doesn't mean much before asking "to what end?"

I'm hesitant to mention Peter Singer's paper on famine relief.
 
 
Fist Fun
19:31 / 10.07.02
Why the hesitancy? Interesting bit from that site -

When we buy new clothes not to keep ourselves warm but to look "well-dressed" we are not providing for any important need. We would not be sacrificing anything significant if we were to continue to wear our old clothes, and give the money to famine relief. By doing so, we would be preventing another person from starving. It follows from what I have said earlier that we ought to give money away, rather than spend it on clothes which we do not need to keep us warm. To do so is not charitable, or generous. Nor is it the kind of act which philosophers and theologians have called "supererogatory" - an act which it would be good to do, but not wrong not to do. On the contrary, we ought to give the money away, and it is wrong not to do so.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
07:33 / 11.07.02
I've discovered a horrible trend recently in the UK- it appears registered charities are no longer allowed (or they just think it's beneath them) to go round with tins asking for donations. People will come up to you on the street asking for donations for (say) Amnesty International, and if you don't have a good enough credit rating to be able to set up a direct debit, you're powerless to help. I've offered them fifty quid in cash once, and they told me they had to decline (I'd just been paid a shitload of overtime and felt like doing something good).

That aside, I'm not really sure on the question of how much one should give... for one person, a tithe may be disposable. For another, they may have outgoing living costs of 80% of their income, in which case a tithe means something different.

On the morality front, though, I think people SHOULD give to charity. (Providing, of course, it's one they agree with. And there's gotta be one out there for the majority of people.)

Buk: "When you realise that is never going to happen what do you do as an individual? "

Just because something may be physically unattainable is no need to stop striving for it. And I'd be far more in favour of donations through individual generosity than through taxation, as I don't trust those who tax us to agree with me on what's a deserving cause.
 
 
Naked Flame
16:21 / 14.07.02
I'd just like to jump in here, and say YES! give to charity, but be sure that you know where your money is going.

I was mildly horrified to learn that the sponsored swim I did as a kid for the British Heart Foundation helped to fund animal experimentation.

Stoatie- yeah, that bugs me too. I am not in a position to set up new direct debits without giving my bank manager some kind of seizure. But any of these charities will have details for one-shot donations available from their websites.

Buk: according to your conscience, mate. I wouldn't get into debt in order to give to a charity, personally- if I want to help a given cause but am cash-free I prefer to do something practical. As for the not buying new clothes thing- well, yeah, but why not buy your new duds and give the old ones away? if, for example, you chose to clothe yourself in organic, cruelty-free, sweatshop-free gear, then every time you buy (and give) you're feeding the ethical end of the clothing industry and starving the unethical end of it.

I remember reading a survey that said that students, who represent the skint end of the spectrum, gave more per head on average than bank managers. I sincerely hope that's no longer true, but suspect it might be.
 
 
Naked Flame
16:22 / 14.07.02
Oh, and by the way...

Just because something may be physically unattainable is no need to stop striving for it.

Rock!!
 
 
w1rebaby
19:20 / 14.07.02
stoat: damn, I didn't realise that that was why they always ask for direct debits. I thought it was just a new strategy, or more beneficial for tax purposes, or something.

buk: Should the public good depend on individual generosity, or should the tax system be globally reformed? When you realise that is never going to happen what do you do as an individual?

Private charities, covering single or a small number of issues, are not a very good way of dealing with social problems. They're inefficient (duplication of bureaucracy and efforts, no overall strategy, no integration of services) but more importantly they depend on the vagaries of public goodwill. So "sexy" causes get more, despite their actual value, and in times of economic downturn or just selfishness, the beneficiaries suffer.

I don't think that it is unattainable to make changes to the tax system based on what we do as individuals; there've been a huge number of changes this century to how tax is used and the role of government. We just need to vote, campaign, all that. In the end I'd rather see a government funding the right projects than take my money elsewhere. The option should be available for people to disagree with policy and donate to projects the government doesn't support, but I tend to think that if I support a project then the government should be supporting it too. Bit arrogant maybe.
 
 
rizla mission
08:11 / 15.07.02
I too find the "we don't want your cash, just hand over your credit card" attitude of charity workers incredibly, well, odd and self-defeating. It just invites a responce of "well fuck you then, I'm going to give this money straight to a homeless guy instead.."

Having said that though, I did go out of my way to attract the attension of an Oxfam worker the other day and sign up for a small regular donation. Basically because my granny keeps giving me money, and I keep telling her not to because I don't need it and she can't afford it, but I keep getting it anyway, so I may as well do something good with it..

I'd have liked to give some money to some slightly more risky, direct action type causes, like say the people who smuggle medicine into Iraq or something, but sadly I'm too lazy to go about finding their addresses..
 
 
Naked Flame
08:17 / 15.07.02
Private charities, covering single or a small number of issues, are not a very good way of dealing with social problems.

Couldn't disagree more.

Change takes dedication and organisation: at the very least, giving to charity enables a group of people to spend all of their time doing that organising. And it does take time. Yes, anyone can write a letter to their elected representative, but it takes more than that. To pick an example out of the air- today sees the resumption of live exports from Britain, post-foot and mouth. The truck in question was leaving Dover at 5am. How exactly would the AR movement have people there to protest/blockade it without a significant bunch of 'em working fulltime?

For some charities- for example, those dealing with social policy that should be government responsibility- I can almost see your point. But in the example of single-issue gigs like the environment, AR, and anti-globalisation movements, there are vast organised corporate forces that spend all their time promoting their agenda. They have the money and they usually have the ear of the people in power. Explain to me how the creation of full-time agencies to oppose such powers is unnecessary, please. Because your government isn't going to fund them.

Stoatie- one of the reasons it now works like this is because over the last 10 years the 'culture' of charities in this country has shifted such that now most fundraisers are paid, not volunteers. The guys and gals in the street looking for your bank details are on commision. I believe we have Lord Archer, may he rot in peace, to thank for the cultural shift.
 
 
w1rebaby
11:48 / 15.07.02
How exactly would the AR movement have people there to protest/blockade it without a significant bunch of 'em working fulltime?

Wouldn't it have been better if there was animal rights legislation that would have stopped it in the first place?

But in the example of single-issue gigs like the environment, AR, and anti-globalisation movements, there are vast organised corporate forces that spend all their time promoting their agenda. They have the money and they usually have the ear of the people in power. Explain to me how the creation of full-time agencies to oppose such powers is unnecessary, please. Because your government isn't going to fund them.

This illustrates my point, though. Greenpeace may engage in stunts but their primary motivation is to influence government policy, and increase public awareness; they realise that they're not going to be able to actually solve the problems themselves.

Given that it's a long-term job to prise the government from corporate control and that there are things that need to be done in the meantime, yes, charities are going to be the only way to get things done. But I'd rather see African governments providing famine relief than charities doing it, and it's as important to try to make progress in that department as anywhere else, for the reasons I've given above.

I'm suspicious of the libertarian "the government never does anything right so I'm going to do it myself" model. Healthcare, education, unemployment benefit... would these exist without the immense funding and national infrastructure required that governments have a monopoly on? And it gives an excuse for governments not to do anything as well.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
12:43 / 15.07.02
I have given a lot of money and raised even more for the Literacy Council here in Minneapolis, and will continue to do so.

But I actually feed stupid about giving money to AIDS research and Cancer research. Why? All the money I gave went to companies that did the research and are now selling the drugs they have developed at astoundling prices...so they make huge profits off of research that was funded by charitable giving.

Maybe I haven't looked into it enough, and if someone can correct me, I'd appreciate it, but it seems to me that any money given to medical research just goes to drug companies so that they don't have to spend R&D money and can give their CEOs and Corporate Boards much higher profits.
 
 
w1rebaby
12:45 / 15.07.02
I was under the impression that charity money went to academic and not-for-profit research organisations.

Anything they publish could be used by drugs companies, but then that's open-source science for you.
 
 
Naked Flame
13:19 / 15.07.02
Wouldn't it have been better if there was animal rights legislation that would have stopped it in the first place?

abso-fuckin-lutely.

but it isn't going to happen without non-governmental sources pushing for it!

why is this seemingly so hard to understand, fridge? we're not talking about a theoretical 'wouldn't-it-be-better-if', because we don't live in that world, we live in this world- a late-capitalist society where people and animals, indeed the environment we require to survive, are 'resources'. Of course it would be better if we had legislation to protect seemingly self-evident rights. But we don't. and in many cases these organisations are the best available source of leverage.
 
 
w1rebaby
14:38 / 15.07.02
abso-fuckin-lutely.

but it isn't going to happen without non-governmental sources pushing for it!


That's my whole point. While it may be necessary to do things that the government aren't doing properly, if they should be doing them at all they should be pressed for it, because doing things small-scale with private charities is less effective.

In my mind there is a difference between charitable action (providing food, training etc yourself) and lobbying. The former is suitable for things that are outside of the government's remit to deal with, and the point at which that happens is a matter for debate... but if it's applied to something which is inside, it's a stop-gap only. That's what I meant by "(p)rivate charities... are not a very good way of dealing with social problems". Lobbying and campaigning I see as a different activity, even if it has the same goal.
 
 
Naked Flame
22:47 / 15.07.02
That's my whole point. While it may be necessary to do things that the government aren't doing properly, if they should be doing them at all they should be pressed for it, because doing things small-scale with private charities is less effective.

Ok. I think I'm starting to see your point.

Allow me to paraphrase: you're saying that charities which seek to provide social infrastructure are going to provide a poorer service, dollar-for-dollar, than an equivalent government operation, yes?

Why, exactly?

Government departments are also subject to bureaucratic overheads, potential mismanagement, and the other pitfalls you mention. In fact, in some of those areas- like the overheads- charities are potentially far more 'competitive'.

I feel that your distinction between charities which lobby and charities which 'do stuff' is false. Greenpeace, for example, as well as lobbying and campaigning, funds its own research, and initiates conservation projects on the ground. Now, although it may not have the resources to create enough of said conservation projects to save the planet as a whole, it can at least prove the strength of its ideas and provide concrete examples of things that can be done. it is seeking to solve the problems itself. but it's also seeking to spread its meme, because it's a more efficient way to get results.

As for 'small-scale'... I don't think that, for example, too many famine relief efforts could be called 'small-scale'. It entirely depends on the methods to hand. And 'small-scale', in the hands of the right activists, can still be uncommonly effective- remember the publicity generated by the McLibel trial?

Even if I were to accept the hypothesis that charities were somehow too 'small' to change things, I would have to recognise that, just like large corporations, they are not bound to one country and therefore can be considered potential agents for the transmission of technology, best practice, and -crucially- idealogical change.

What we have in common here is, I think, a desire to arrive at an appropriately complex answer to the question. It's not good/bad but which charity, where your money's going to go, and what it's going to accomplish. These are the kind of questions that we should be asking.

My feeling is still that there is a hell of a lot of planet to save and just as many beings on that planet who desperately need help, and that inaction isn't an option.
 
 
w1rebaby
10:51 / 16.07.02
I wrote this one in a text editor so as not avoid losing an entire post, like I did on the demonstrations one, and getting so fucked off that I never reply at all

Allow me to paraphrase: you're saying that charities which seek to provide social infrastructure are going to provide a poorer service, dollar-for-dollar, than an equivalent government operation, yes?

For large-scale projects that require country-wide strategy, yes. For smaller projects, possibly. I'm also saying that for some "unfashionable" problems they are unlikely to get those dollars in the first place.

Why, exactly?

Government departments are also subject to bureaucratic overheads, potential mismanagement, and the other pitfalls you mention. In fact, in some of those areas- like the overheads- charities are potentially far more 'competitive'.


Okay, here are a couple of reasons.

Charities don't have the reliability. While funding for public projects is sometimes shaky, compared to charities it's pretty solid. Charities are dependent on public opinion and their own PR, month-to-month. If they suddenly lose a source of funding, whoever they're supporting is in trouble. They also tend to provide regional services. If the people in your area don't see the need to fund a drug rehab centre, you don't get one. As well as that, government services can benefit from better public-sector borrowing rates.

There's quite a good bit in Captive State on this point which I pretty much agree with, with many examples.

Charities aren't part of an integrated system. Take the police. If the police get involved in a domestic violence case, they can at least get social services involved (at least they should) who can evaluate the situation, see whether the children are safe, provide information on refuges etc. If they had to rely on charities to do this, how would it happen? The cops would not have a standard procedure to follow, they'd have to rely on different people from different organisations, there would be regional differences...

Or disaster relief. If an earthquake hits, you need integration between police, fire services, medical services, housing, food distribution etc etc. The more you split these things up into subgroups the harder it becomes.

I feel that your distinction between charities which lobby and charities which 'do stuff' is false.

I'm not making that distinction, I'm distinguishing between two different activities that charities do.

As for 'small-scale'... I don't think that, for example, too many famine relief efforts could be called 'small-scale'. It entirely depends on the methods to hand.

I still think that the big famine relief projects would have been better handled if they had been done within the countries, but given the political realities of the situation that wasn't really an option.

And 'small-scale', in the hands of the right activists, can still be uncommonly effective- remember the publicity generated by the McLibel trial?

Small groups can be effective at creating publicity, sure, but that doesn't solve social infrastructure problems.

Even if I were to accept the hypothesis that charities were somehow too 'small' to change things, I would have to recognise that, just like large corporations, they are not bound to one country and therefore can be considered potential agents for the transmission of technology, best practice, and -crucially- idealogical change.

That I think is one of the advantages of charities, their transnational potential. Note that I said "country-wide" earlier because the infrastructure advantages of governmental groups disappear when they have to act across borders. There's little or no political discussion and negotiation that has to take place when an international charity is involved, which is why the Red Cross works well.

What we have in common here is, I think, a desire to arrive at an appropriately complex answer to the question. It's not good/bad but which charity, where your money's going to go, and what it's going to accomplish. These are the kind of questions that we should be asking.

My feeling is still that there is a hell of a lot of planet to save and just as many beings on that planet who desperately need help, and that inaction isn't an option.


I'm not going to disagree with that... charitable action is needed, it's a question of taking the appropriate action. Why build your own infrastructure when you can fix the one we've got?
 
 
Situationism Made Queasy
06:28 / 20.07.02


Me, I have a slightly different question:

Is it wrong of me to prefer directly buying a piece of fruit
or a sandwich for a homeless person when I have the spare pocket
cash, as opposed to donating to charity?

It's just the only way I feel I can actually know what's going on
with my money.

And it's just so much simpler...
 
 
Shortfatdyke
11:18 / 20.07.02
ha! there was something on this a while back - either the (british) government or a homeless charity (shelter?) was telling people to give to charity rather than individual street people, basically in case they were naughty and spent it on drink or drugs instead of food or shelter.

foucault - it's up to you how you help people, i suppose. i saw a woman chatting to a beggar the other day and then she went into a nearby fast food shop, leaving her gear with the beggar, and i assumed she was buying him some food and had asked what he wanted. i've also heard of someone buying sandwiches and giving them to a beggar who told the bloke to fuck off.

but you're also talking about how much of your money goes in admin and how much reaches the individual. charities need to keep going in order to be most effective - so surely sending them money will be helping your chosen cause, whether it funds, say, food going to someone who's hungry, or the cost of a staff member going out to distribute that food, or an ad to bring in more money?

but as i say, i understand you wanting to be more direct. it's just that it may be a more short term way of helping.
 
 
Naked Flame
11:47 / 20.07.02
Not wrong, I'd say- just a different way of looking at things.

I know that when I was homeless I wouldn't have made it through without the help of some very lovely people.

I think one of the things I've learnt from this thread is that it's probably fake thinking to try and figure out the 'best' use of your money. It's needed on so many levels by so many organisations in so many ways that one should probably give according to one's means and conscience and hope it all works out eventually...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:16 / 21.07.02
Re: wanting to buy a sandwich or an apple for a homeless person lest they spend the change you give them on something *wrong*, like booze. This is a very common idea, but doesn't it overlook the possibility that the ability to decide how to spend money one has made (even by begging) might be something that people without a place to live enjoy and in fact 'deserve' as much as 'we' do...
 
 
Naked Flame
16:56 / 21.07.02
flyboy- point taken, but the old adage of never looking a gift horse in the mouth applies, I feel.
 
  
Add Your Reply