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Crisis in Ultimate Universes?

 
  

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some guy
21:48 / 11.07.02
I wonder if I'm alone here in thinking that Ultimate Storm is like Marvel Universe Storm, but without 20+ years of crappy writing warping the character's premise...

I think if we look at Storm's first year in both Ultimate X-Men and Uncanny X-Men we'll find two completely different characters. If they had different names and looks/powers, nobody would ever make a connection between the two. We can go attribute by attribute if you want, citing examples.

I don't care if Chris Claremont essentially created the characters - the Storm and Rogue that appear in his current comics have nothing to do with the basic characters that he started out with, and I really don't think that was a natural (much less logical) progression at all

Having just read all four Essential X-Men books and then following through in issues until UXM 279 before plowing into a re-read of the early New Mutants, I would have to argue that both characters do actually have coherent, logical evolutions of personality through that point at least, in much the same way Magneto's evolution makes sense between UXM 1 and X-Men 3. If the three characters didn't evolve logically and coherently after that point (and neither Rogue nor Magneto seem to have) - well, I remember when that would have been called bad writing.

I think this is a pretty good case for what Flyboy and Runce are saying - the writers dictate what the characters are, regardless of logical continuity anyway, why not just throw out the rules altogether?

A lot of this line of thought seems very reactionary and "Oh look! I'm being revolutionary!" when in fact if one made the same case for any other medium - that it's fine for Andy Sipowicz to return in the new season of NYPD Blue as a friendly, sensitive bloke with no explanation - one would look very foolish indeed.

I think some of us are making assumptions, or jumping the gun in responding without bothering to read full posts. We all seem to agree that new interpretations of these characters are fine. I'm just questioning whether different interpretations belong within a single series without evolution of the characters, and suggesting that it's silly to claim that all versions of (for example) Storm should be of interest to Storm fans.

It's interesting that if we skip over to the Hellblazer movie thread we see people up in arms over changing the details for the film. Perhaps its easier to argue for the destruction of continuity when it's not a title close to our hearts?
 
 
some guy
22:14 / 11.07.02
No Lawrence, Storm is not Storm is not Storm. There is no single, seamless Storm. Not after 20 odd years and a a truckload of different writers.

I guess you could say the same thing about any of us, after 20 years of experiences. And yet if you did say the same thing, people would look at you funny. Because life is about change, yes, but an evolutionary change. Prunce may be completely different in 1980, 1990 and 2000, but s/he remains Prunce nontheless, because Prunce is contained within his/her own distinct continuity. The MU Storm is a single fictional character that operates in a similar fashion. The UU Storm is a new character, based on the original but with her own evolution that began with Ultimate X-Men 1. It's not that the UU Storm isn't Storm, it's that she's a different Storm. Perhaps this is why she appears in a universe with a continuity distinct from the MU. Shocker.

I want new writer's to bring something new to a book. The reason you enjoy NXM's because it's rebooted/made over: It's NEW. The character's don't feel the same, don't look the same and, well, the whole tone of the thing's changed.

Sure, but then the series' tone has always changed. This is nothing new. These are still recognizably the same characters, who have had all of the experiences catalogued in the issues before Grant arrived on the scene. Mark Millar, meanwhile, is writing about different characters. These are two fundamentally different approaches to the franchise, with Grant choosing to play in the original sandbox and Millar opting for a new one. The reason I like NXM isn't because it's new (and a lot of it isn't, not really). I like it because Grant is writing interesting stories about characters I like, and doing it well. I wouldn't buy Scott Lobdell's take on these characters even though I like them, and I wouldn't buy Grant's take on characters I don't like, such as the JLA. It's a two-sided equation.

You're dancing around the idea of whether a series should be internally consistent. I would say yes, and that while other interpretations are welcome and valid, they should occur within their own series. NEW X MEN did not begin with issue one, and Grant so far has recognized that fact and accomodated it in his storytelling and characterization.

Since the X-Men thing is becoming too cluttered, we could look at Superman instead. Smallville, Superboy, Louis & Clark, Superman, the animated series. All valid and unique television interpretations of Superman. Yet they all have an internal consistency, one in which each series' representation of Clark Kent must maintain a solid continuity between installments, despite varying wildly between series. My Storm point applies here - that it is not unreasonable for a fan of one interpretation to be disinterested in another interpretation, perhaps arguing that the George Reeves Clark is not the same character as the Dean Cain Clark. And so Clark is not Clark is not Clark.

Would you argue that superconsistency should apply to Superman the concept, as I would, or the episode-to-episode relationship within a specific series? If Grant's NEW X MEN is distinct from the previous issues, should it have been a distinct title?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
23:43 / 11.07.02
Laurence, I've been reading X-Men since for-fucking-ever. Seriously, the Storm in Ultimate X-Men is a lot more true to the basic idea of Storm than the one in X-Treme X-Men, and I don't think Millar's version is that far off from the original Claremont Storm. See, there's three big differences between the original MU Storm and the Ultimate Storm:

* Ultimate Storm is a teenager, which is a logical part of the Ultimate X-Men comic.

* Millar has ditched all the "goddess" baggage that Claremont tacked on to Storm cos a) it was the lamest thing about the character by a million miles and b) it wasn't very culturally informed. Are we to believe Kenyans would worship this girl as a Goddess? C'mon. It's not believable for the Storm of the 70s either.

* Ultimate Storm is a lot more human and likeable. Save for a brief patch of time in the early-to-mid 80s, Storm was always the most dull X-Man. Admit it! The reason she changed so much is cos the writer(s) were always trying to figure out something, anything interesting for the character to do.

Laurence, you've got to get over it. I don't disagree with you - I admit that my interest in the X-Men has to do with existing continuity. But c'mon, man...you're just making yourself sound like yr stand Hero Realm reviewer by going on about allegiance to strict continuity and a nebulous notion of "character" vs. actual quality of product. As per usual, your argument is wishy-washy and lacks shape - you contradict yourself left and right, while speaking in absolutes. Get a grip, man.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:20 / 12.07.02
I know....I'm confused now. I'm not sure what we're debating anymore. It all began as "ease up, Lawrence, stop being so controlling: you might like the 'changes'" and became....something else.
 
 
some guy
13:56 / 12.07.02
Millar has ditched all the "goddess" baggage that Claremont tacked on

Len Wein "tacked on" that aspect of Storm in her first appearance. I'm not sure it's a valid criticism, considering that the use of the goddess thing by Claremont was intended to show how much Ororo the person couldn't match Storm the goddess myth. The whole mohawk incarnation stems directly from Storm's origins as a goddess in the Giant Size debut. If it was written today I'm sure we'd be praising its meta-textual criticism of the Storm template.

Ultimate Storm is a lot more human and likeable. Save for a brief patch of time in the early-to-mid 80s, Storm was always the most dull X-Man. Admit it! The reason she changed so much is cos the writer(s) were always trying to figure out something, anything interesting for the character to do.

The Ultimate Storm has no personality! This is a flaw of Millar as a writer, of course, but the MU Storm's distance and formality is a major characteristic - one that defines the character and inspired the evolution of the character from around the UXM 160s through at least about 227. The UU Storm is the Andy Sipowicz example I suggested above, or the proposed Constantine of the film. Just because the name is the same doesn't mean the character is. You're getting silly.

But c'mon, man...you're just making yourself sound like yr stand Hero Realm reviewer by going on about allegiance to strict continuity and a nebulous notion of "character" vs. actual quality of product.

Flux, you really need to step back and actually read what I write before you allow your emotion to construct pointless posts. I have said several times that I have no allegiance to continuity in a broad context, or to particular characters. I have no problem with NEW X MEN debuting as a distinct series and it's own continuity. But it didn't. Instead, Grant chose to continue the existing series. A continuation and a remake are not the same thing.

I have said several times that I will (and have) ditched books when the quality falls, and pick them up when it rises. This thread can be reduced to two basic points, neither of which you appear willing to address directly (perhaps because it detracts from trying to score cheap points by labeling me a 'fanboy,' a rich move from someone posting on an Internet message board about comics):

1) The Marvel Universe and the Ultimate Universe are not the same thing. It is not unreasonable for people who like one to have no interest in another. This is the same reason why people may like the Batman animated series and have no interest in the '60s Adam West series, because they are not the same Batman.

2)I maintain that continuity within a single series is a reasonable expectation on the part of the audience, and that the new drive to abolish this continuity appears only within a segment of comic fandom and would be laughed at by viewers of television. Although the examples above are wildly different Batmans, I think most of us would agree that viewers can reasonably assume that each individual Batman should remain consistent within the context/continuity of the specific series.

As per usual, your argument is wishy-washy and lacks shape - you contradict yourself left and right, while speaking in absolutes.

I don't think I've been wishy-washy or lacking in shape, considering I've been saying the same thing. Looking back, I don't appear to contradict myself, but I'm happy for you to provide quoted examples, which shouldn't be difficult if I've done if "left and right." Hell, I'm happy for you to address any of my specific points, other than vague disagreements and attempts at dismissing the issues by relegating me to 'fanboy' status. Perhaps I don't write with as much clarity as I should. It may be easier if you ask point blank questions.

I've proposed a definition of superconsistency and described a requirement for continuity that nobody has discussed. I've transferred the details of the discussion to other series in an attempt to rid the thread of the X-Men example, which appears to color opinion too darkly to allow for rational examination. I haven't insulted anyone or sorted to saying anything "sucks." What more do you want?
 
 
glassonion
13:46 / 13.07.02
well you've won me over. lots 'n salient points made. a few less so: i feel that in order to make the mu accessible to a younger and wider audience the ultimatizing of the whole is probably quite a good idea. marvel will i expect continue to print titles and deal with characters that make money and even in some cases that don't make money but garner critical prestige [i know this is normally a dc/vertigo trick but how much ca$h must the house of ideas have to throw around these days?]. from what i remember the claremont storm was an urchiny street thief with an inflated sense of her own greatness. the millar storm is almost exactly the same but with better dialogue. how much of ustorm have we seen yet anyway? any future writer could give her a back story in africa with childhood life as a goddess. might even help to explain her arsiness and resentment towards american society that her character has exhibited in uxmen. despite the upheavals that may occur during changeover, within three years you'll still just be holding some marvel comics in your hand, it really shouldn't matter to you if they have the u-word on the cover so long as they remain any good. probably by then the pendulum will have gone back and only dc'll be doing good superbooks again. world without end.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:39 / 22.07.02
Just so everyone knows, and probably suspected all along, this whole rumor was planted by Marvel's Bill Jemas as an experiment in seeing how fast rumors can spread online.
 
 
Spaniel
20:18 / 22.07.02
Where's your source? I must know immediately!
 
 
glassonion
21:37 / 22.07.02
shame
 
 
Spaniel
16:25 / 23.07.02
Rather quick to jump the gun, Flux.

See here for a fuller picture.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
18:52 / 23.07.02
Whether it was a hoax or not, I'd like to take responsibility for planting the germ of this idea in Joe Q's mind a year and a half ago. In an interview never published (for transcribing difficulties) for a now defunct comic site, my final question to him was, "Do you think it's possible that these stories that have been told and retold for 40 years now, that at some point you just come up with some ending to that story, so you can stand back and appreciate it in its entirety, and let people enjoy it for that and THEN maybe miss it enough to bring it back?" Of course, he hemmed and hawed and fed me the company line that the reason why these characters have been continuously published for 40 years is because they are so rife with possibilities, yada yada... (BTW, I should say that other than this one evasion Joe's a very cool guy and didn't give me the impression he was jerking me around throughout our interview.) But I'd like to think that maybe he passed along this question to Jemas and it might've evolved into this.

Of course, I may be completely kidding myself, but it's a pretty story and I'll take it to my grave, along with the belief that I invented the phrase "same difference" in 1983 and "Arcturus is nice, but I wouldn't want to be alive there" in 2038.
 
 
glassonion
18:58 / 23.07.02
i saw that alan you got him you got him!
 
  

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