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The International Criminal Court

 
 
Perfect Tommy
05:47 / 04.07.02
From CNN 'cause it was the first one I found:

'[Presidental spokesman Ari] Fleischer added, "The president thinks the ICC is fundamentally flawed because it puts American servicemen and women at fundamental risk of being tried by an entity that is beyond America's reach, beyond America's laws and can subject American civilian and military to arbitrary standards of justice."'

My first reaction was, "Y'mean, like holding Afghans in prison camps?" While I was starting to post my embarrassed emigration plans, though, I noted the article's claim that "other nations that are signatories to the ICC and are participating under its purview have negotiated similar immunities for their personnel."

That was the first I've heard of such immunity -- is there some truth to the claim?
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
12:51 / 04.07.02
The US stomping out was mentioned in an earlier thread or two, but I hadn't heard it has gotten as far as Bush. The whole thing's fucking ridiculous anyway. As long as the US continues to throw it's weight about in the UN it can control ICC jurisdiction case-by-case, and the ICC can only investigate allegations not dealt with fairly by the accused's own nation. See here, though google will throw up lots of sites with the same info.

What sticks in my craw the most right now is this little gem from Dubya himself:"As the United States works to bring peace around the world, our diplomats and our soldiers could be drug into this court, and that's very troubling -- very troubling to me." Thats "works to bring peace to the world" by throwing a hissy fit and withdrawing it's peacekeeping efforts from Bosnia. Nice.

Haven't found anything about other nations arranging special immunity though...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:40 / 04.07.02
Human Rights Watch

More

ICC and justice for women
 
 
Baz Auckland
15:22 / 07.07.02
Wouldn't logic dictate though, that if these "frivolous claims and cases" were brought to court, and the US servicemen were innocent, they would be found so by the court??. If they are worried about being found guilty for doing nasty things, why don't they just say "We can't join the court, because we're just not nice people"

I've been wondering about the claim that the other signatories have immunity clauses. I've yet to actually see any proof of that outside of the US saying so.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
19:48 / 07.07.02
Yes, that's an interesting point, because as I understand it, European countries are really irritated about the US' attitude on this, and I can't believe even they would have the cheek to do so if they had opt-outs too.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
20:51 / 07.07.02
Pffffp. I'm quite sure they would have the cheek. I just haven't been able to find any reference to opt outs. I seem to recall this is a reference to a rather free interpretation of another agreement.

But we should ask Fist of Fun. This is the kind of thing he's good at.

Fist?
 
 
SMS
01:25 / 11.07.02
I have one serious concern about the court.

"The International Criminal Court is a separate entity from the United Nations." It is permanent, and, if it is going to function, it must have an authority higher than nations themselves. Any permanent body has the potential to increase its powers over time. This includes those bodies that are formed with the intention of severely limited power (see the history of the U.S. government). The ICC does have the intention to grow in power.

As it stands, the court will "try war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide, and, eventually, the crime of aggression."

Other crimes may be added, such as terrorism and drug trafficking.

As to whether or not the U.S. should be concerned, I cannot say with any certainty without reading further. It should be noted, however, that the U.S. has military alliances with 36 countries all over the world. As a consequence, the potential is greater that our soldiers may be subject to the tribunal. I can't see any real reason to be worried about it, though, as long as the tribunal doesn't become more and more powerful over time. I mean, if a U.S. soldier commits a war crime, he ought to be held responsible for it. Nobody's saying that's not so. And we shouldn't even be subject to it, anyway, if "the Court can only exercise its jurisdiction when a national court is unable or unwilling to genuinely do so itself."
 
 
Mystery Gypt
06:41 / 11.07.02
russia and china have pulled the same move as the US, by the way, refusing to be part of the court.

inspired by all this rhetoric, i was thinking maybe i'd pull out of the US court, on account of the fact that their laws endanger my drug use.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:43 / 11.07.02
The U.S. has dropped its demand for immunity from prosecution by the ICC for its peacekeepers, instead asking for a year-long moratorium on any investigations, which could be renewed indefinitely. Full Story Here.

Other U.N. Security council members have deemed this overture "unsatifactory," but it seems to me that this is a significant change in policy, given that (according to the article) the treaty creating the ICC already allows the Security Council to request a 12-month deferral of investigation or prosecution by the court on a case-by-case basis, and no UN peacekeepers have ever been charged with war crimes.
 
 
Baz Auckland
02:35 / 18.06.04
The USA's immunity is up for renewel, and the chances don't look as good as last time...

Secretary-General Kofi Annan urged the UN Security Council on Thursday to stop shielding U.S. peacekeepers from international prosecution for war crimes. Mr. Annan cited the U.S. prisoner-abuse scandal in Iraq in opposing a U.S. resolution calling for the blanket exemption for a third year.

“For the past two years, I have spoken quite strongly against the exemption, and I think it would be unfortunate for one to press for such an exemption, given the prisoner abuse in Iraq,” he told reporters Thursday

The United States introduced the resolution last month but has delayed calling for a vote. Despite intensive lobbying, Washington does not have the minimum nine “yes” votes on the 15-member council to approve a new exemption, council diplomats said. The current exemption expires June 30.

This year, France, Germany, Spain and Brazil have said they will abstain on a new extension. China, Romania, Chile and Benin are also reported to be on the list of probable abstentions, council diplomats said, insisting on anonymity.
 
 
Baz Auckland
02:33 / 23.06.04
The USA asks for just one more year of exemptions...

Facing strong opposition, the United States said today it is willing to compromise and seek an exemption for American peacekeepers from international prosecution for war crimes for just one final year.

U.S. Deputy Ambassador James Cunningham conceded Tuesday that council members "are becoming increasingly uncomfortable" with the U.S. exemption so the United States was willing to go along with ``the idea of a final extension." At a closed council meeting late Tuesday, the United States circulated a revised draft resolution that Cunningham said eliminates a reference to renewing the exemption and "makes clear this is the final extension."


...which makes me wonder what happens next year? I would assume they have a plan to avoid the ICC forever, but maybe they just don't want anything to happen before the election...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:28 / 23.06.04
I would expect that the 'one final year' is, in the worst case scenario for Republicans, to make it the problem of the new Democrat president, should anything happen that involves prosecuting US soldiers, they get to bitch and moan about how the President is betraying 'our sons and daughters', the fact they agreed to just one year extensions won't matter. If Bush gets in, well, they jump off the cliff this year and have one year to try and work out how to fly before they hit bottom next year.

However, quite seperate to this the US and UK have immunity from war crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan and Bosnia anyway, so it might not matter much.
 
 
sleazenation
15:53 / 23.06.04
The US back out of asking for extented immunity from the ICC because it couldn't muster enough support details here.
 
 
sleazenation
17:50 / 23.06.04
From the above BBC story...

In the past, the US has threatened to veto UN peacekeeping operations if its demands for exemption from prosecution by the International Criminal Court (ICC) in The Hague were not met. Mr Cunningham did not repeat the warning, but said the US would in future "need to take into account the risk of ICC review when determining contributions to UN authorised or established operations".

Lets hope the US government also 'take into account the risk of ICC review' when next planning their next military misadventure, not to mention when setting up extra-legal facilities such as camp delta
 
 
Grey Area
18:28 / 23.06.04
Hmm...so can we assume that cases against US soldiers for crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere can now be taken to the ICC instead of relying on their internal military justice systems?
 
 
sleazenation
19:18 / 23.06.04
Nope, because the US was still covered by the previous exemption agreement from the ICC at the time they were were all commited. From what I recall the old exemption lasts until the 30th of this month...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
06:57 / 24.06.04
Better get their torturing in quick, then, hadn't they?

The thing that has disturbed me all along about this is that I haven't heard one single reason that sounds like justification enough for an exemption in the first place. Added to this Kofi Annan's obvious delight (which I share, obviously) that they've withdrawn the request, this is such a blatant example of a country getting away with what it wants JUST COS IT'S TOO BIG TO STOP IT, without even the common pleasantries of diplomacy.
 
  
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