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Here it is, the Government ID card plan...

 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:19 / 03.07.02
Damn David Blunkett for making me agree with Tories...

The BBC take on it

The Guardian's version

And Sky news

What do people think?
 
 
w1rebaby
17:43 / 03.07.02
This one comes up every six months or so. And then it disappears again, because it would cost too much money and not really help anyone at all. We already have ID cards, they're called passports. If you can fake a passport, why can't you fake an ID card?

It was waved about after Sept 11 and nothing happened, it was waved about last Mayday IIRC. It would be a threat to civil liberties but I'm not worried because it won't happen.

(Of course, if it does happen now you're quite entitled to come round and laugh, though I will demand to see your ID first.)
 
 
Grey Area
17:59 / 03.07.02
OK, let me put it to you like this: I'm German, and we have ID cards back home (as the article stated). They're useful things to have, if only for the passport-less ease with which you can move between EU countries. If any state in the EU should have a problem with government-issued ID cards, it should be Germany, based on our history of totalitarian goverments. But no, we use them and have systems in place which ensure that the data the cards represent cannot be used against us (unless we break the law...).

Quite how a photographic ID card is an infringement on your civil liberties I have no idea...what's to stop your driving license being in infringement then? Or the ID card issued by your university? Both those cards represent a system that monitors your address and certain behaviour patterns. The simple fact is that people in the UK are not used to the concept of centrally held ID cards and are scared of the unknown.
 
 
w1rebaby
18:16 / 03.07.02
we use them and have systems in place which ensure that the data the cards represent cannot be used against us (unless we break the law...)

I'm very glad you have faith that your government will not use the data against you... but I don't. Consider that these cards are being introduced in an atmosphere of the removal of civil liberties anyway - at the same time as bills for government surveillance of net use for example. Though that's been defeated, the underlying motive is clear.

The UK has a very poor record on government data privacy - DNA records are routinely kept, illegally, by police for years, photographs and intelligence are distributed and used to harass legitimate protestors. In my opinion, the systems that will have to be put in place for ID cards to work will involve collecting far more data than those already existing, and will allow far more detailed government surveillance, particularly if (as Mr Blunkett suggests) they will be required for the access of government services as well. It's not the actual ID cards that are the problem, it's the systems behind them.

I'm also unconvinced of the actual benefits for society of having them in the first place. I don't see the difference between having to carry your passport to cross borders and having to carry your ID card to cross borders. To me they merely allow increased information to be compiled on citizens who don't try to get round them.

But like I say, I don't think it will happen anyway.

(I like the idea that they're being called "entitlement cards"... nice use of language there...)
 
 
Fist Fun
18:50 / 03.07.02
I completely agree with Grey Area. I don't see a problem with ID cards as long as there are strict fair laws on how the data is used.
As a side note, on the bus into town today I noticed a sign describing how hidden cameras are used to monitor and crack down on anti-social behaviour on public transport. Now is this an infringement of civil liberties? Or is it just a way to cut down on violence and threatening behaviour which your average bus traveller probably sees about once a week? Who will be the winner and losers with hidden cameras on the bus?
Isn't it the same sort of thing for ID cards. If you live in a fair democracy where you agree with most laws or at least admit that they have been decided upon fairly then where is the problem with ID cards? Who is going to gain from not having them?
 
 
Grey Area
19:49 / 03.07.02
[...] In my opinion, the systems that will have to be put in place for ID cards to work will involve collecting far more data than those already existing, [...]

Let me open my wallet and take a look at what I have, card-wise. I have
1. National Insurance Numbercard
2. NHS card
3. Driver's License
4. University ID
5. Bank cards
6. Misc crap-cards (Tesco, Xtravision, etc.)

Now, the way I interpret Blunkett's proposal is that the UK ID card would replace items 1 and 2, and possibly act in conjunction with 3. National Insurance have details of my current job, my current address, how much I earn, how much I pay in social security contributions, etc. The NHS card entitles me to access the health system and related benefits. I might be seeing this a bit naively, considering that I have only lived in this country for 5 years, but isn't this the information the proposed cards would require? Add the collection of a photo and you've got the basic premise for your ID card.

[...] To me they merely allow increased information to be compiled on citizens who don't try to get round them. [...]

How? I can only use the example of the German cards: There is no communication between the government departments regarding the information held in connection with your card. If it were, the Defense Ministry would be able to get the info that I'm living in the UK and me place on the fugitives register for not fulfilling my military service. The information you generate is held by the government department responsible for that brand of information and it is not communicated to anyone else unless there's a damn good reason to do so. Being a suspected protest organiser is not a good enough reason. Being a suspected mass murderer is. The rules are clear and stringently enforced.

Right now, I'd say that a persistent government official in the UK could find out more about me through my National Insurance Number than a German official could through my ID card number. So yes, the UK would need to take a long, hard look at the mechanisms the rest of the EU countries use, consider it's iffy record with regard to data security and develop control and supervision mechanisms that would put the public at ease.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:48 / 03.07.02
Now, the way I interpret Blunkett's proposal is that the UK ID card would replace items 1 and 2, and possibly act in conjunction with 3. National Insurance have details of my current job, my current address, how much I earn, how much I pay in social security contributions, etc. The NHS card entitles me to access the health system and related benefits. I might be seeing this a bit naively, considering that I have only lived in this country for 5 years, but isn't this the information the proposed cards would require? Add the collection of a photo and you've got the basic premise for your ID card.

First off, 1 and 2 are not ID. I don't carry either of them, in fact I don't know where either are. They're not actually necessary to either pay National Insurance or receive healthcare, for a UK citizen at least. Blunkett's card proposal would be wider-ranging than that - you would have to present the card to receive any sort of state benefit, unemployment, whatever. Now, apart from the cost of doing this and the rather doubtful idea that it would stop fraud significantly, that's not too bad. However...

There is no communication between the government departments regarding the information held in connection with your card... The information you generate is held by the government department responsible for that brand of information and it is not communicated to anyone else unless there's a damn good reason to do so. Being a suspected protest organiser is not a good enough reason.

...the problem is that I in no way trust the government to keep to data privacy laws, or, in fact, to draft them properly in the first place. Consider two possible alternatives. Firstly, the police have no power at all to demand to see your ID - in which case, it's a bit useless as an anti-crime measure. Secondly, and more probably, they would. (Considering there have already been moves to do such things as making it illegal to cover your face during a demonstration, unless you're in the police of course, in which case you're deliberately unidentifiable.) I am in a protest. I have my ID number recorded. A few months later, I'm stopped for speeding. The cops, checking my ID, find that I'm on a list of possible anarchists - they decide to search my car for drugs. Later, I apply for benefits. I'm still on the same list, and my application is treated with great suspicion. And so on. That's not even to allow for the possibility of mistakes (and there are a great number of mistakes that are found in this sort of data) propagating across the whole system. Look what happens with credit records - if you get mistakenly blacklisted, you suffer for it for years. The whole point of this card is that it does imply the sort of centralised record-keeping that your ID card apparently doesn't. You can't have a general work/healthcare/benefits/etc card that doesn't work like this.

the UK would need to take a long, hard look at the mechanisms the rest of the EU countries use, consider it's iffy record with regard to data security and develop control and supervision mechanisms that would put the public at ease.

Indeed. And until the UK government does this, and convinces me it's entirely changed its ways, I'm not going to believe them, and I'm not going to support any moves to implement it. There's too much evidence that they have an incredibly, and possibly deliberately, lax attitude to data security combined with inefficient error-prone record-keeping.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:52 / 03.07.02
I doubt you really agree with the Tories, Lada, 'cos their position is, broadly: "ID cards would be fine if only asylum seekers and benefit cheats had to carry them, but you can't treat normal, law-abiding citizens the same way"... Which, ironically, illustrates the way that ID cards will inevitably be used - to intensify and make easier various processes of discrimination and oppression that are already taking place... It's true that right now it probably wouldn't affect my life - but should that be all I care about?
 
 
Fist Fun
05:59 / 04.07.02
As regards immigration and ID cards. The idea is that ID cards would cut down on immigration through unofficial channels and allow that time, effort, money, etc to be spent on helping officially sanctioned immigration. Is that good or bad?
Personally I think there should be no barriers to immigration but I live in a state and a larger community that has generally agreed that external immigration should be limited. As long as that is the fairly decided, general will then you have to go along with that. If you do decide that immigration should be limited then how do you put that into practice? The best way would be to decide on a set of fair rules that should apply equally to everyone applying. How do you enforce that...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
07:33 / 04.07.02
Well, it's probably worth noting here the distinction between 'immigrants' (here 'legally', with papers and visas to prove it and therefore with nothing to fear from an ID card programme) and 'asylum seekers/refugees/illegal immigrants' (here 'illegally', often without papers, having fled their previous country as a result of persecution and oppression, and therefore at risk of being denied status under an ID card programme).
 
 
w1rebaby
11:17 / 04.07.02
KKC: and thus we have legal immigrants who could get cards anyway, and illegal immigrants who don't have papers at the moment either and could just as easily be deported, prevented from accessing services etc under the current system. So I don't see how ID cards will do anything about illegal immigration.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:24 / 04.07.02
Well, precisely - I wasn't advocating them at all; trying to clarify Buk's statement on immigration which seemed to conflate the two (e.g., I don't think this society has decided to limit immigration per se).
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:27 / 04.07.02
Yeah Fly, I agree with the Tories but not on the why. Interestingly enough after deciding that the RIP bill needed work and that people really weren't keen on so many Government departments could use it for no really good reason it seems that pretty much those same departments will be able to call for your ID card. Seems to me that the administration for this would end up creating the sort of database that would be able to plug into an RIP act quite easily.

And a sop about it not being compulsory to carry is worthless. The spin about all the positive uses seem designed to make people think 'oh, I'll carry it because it'll make my life easier' and then pretty soon after they'll just change the law again and make it compulsory.
 
  
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