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Religion for brits and americans

 
 
bitchiekittie
13:57 / 02.07.02
...and where ever else posters may be from

I usually dont worry about the prevalence of religious icons and references in this country - on our currency, in our songs and pledges, on television at any given time. the church on every other corner and the ichthus on the back of every 3 cars, the "why worry? god is in control" bumper stickers that make me giggle each and every time. these things, in my opinion, dont really impede my individual rights (as an atheist or otherwise) and are merely an expression of what seems to be a large portion of this countries beliefs. which is fine. Im not too into piddling on other peoples parades. nor am I patriotic, to any degree. even the fact that our kids - mine included - are expected to each morning stand up, place their hands over their hearts, and recite this drivel with absolutely no understanding of what they are pledging, no concept of what this country is or isnt about, and with the fact that this has absolutely no educational value whatsoever. I dont squawk. if it makes other people feel better, go on then.

however, the snide arrogance in the wake of this pledge of allegiance bullshit (a judge ruled the under god bit, which isnt even part of the original pledge, unconstitutional) is insane. I was horrified to hear a reporter say, in regards to the removal of these two words, that the ruling "threatened the very fabric" of our society. holy hell.

politicians responses were "ridiculous, "political correctness run amok", "outrageous", "nuts", and "stupid". one had this to say: "That judge who shouldn't be a judge in my opinion ... let me say this, that I hope his name doesn't come before this body for any promotion. He will be remembered. He will be remembered ... I hope the Senate will waste no time in throwing this back in the face of this stupid judge. Stupid. That's what he is, stupid."

that ape of a president asking us how this can be removed, when we have "The Creator" to thank for our freedom? I almost attacked my television

I voted for gore

anyway. my question is - how much religion do you see in your government? amongst the majority of your country? amongst the people around you? and you personally? how much do you think one affects the others, or your feelings of such? does or would the pervasiveness of religion bother you if it did/does differ from your own beliefs?
 
 
grant
14:35 / 02.07.02
Our national anthem is about a flag; the UK's is "God Save the Queen."

It's pretty much everywhere, innit.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
15:12 / 02.07.02
Minnesota Public Radio had a legal scholar on today who talked about this issue, and a few things he said surprised me...

1) The reason that In God We Trust is still on our money and there is a prayer to start Congress is because, legally, they have been around so long that they, in effect, are meaningless. If religion zealots would read court rulings and apply them to their beliefs, they would be SCREAMING to have these things removed, since the court have said that they aren't a state sponcered religion as they don't mean anything.

2) The Pledge was created by a socialist teacher who wanted it to be for all children of all nations as a form of indoctrination of turning themselves over to the state.

3) The phrase Under God was added during the height of the Cold War to counter-act Russia's belief that the State was the highest power, and the Republican Administration of the time wanted to the show that the State was Under God, not Above God.

4) Didn't everyone say after 9/11 that this sort of petty, meaningless bullshit was over and now we would worry about things with substance? My writing was just ripped when I said that the World DIDN'T change with 9/11...and now it's proving that I was right.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:48 / 02.07.02
Actually, I would say that what is interesting about Great Britain is that it *isn't* everywhere. A cruel man might attribute that to the USA's status as One Nation Under Educated, but not I.

We have a state church, the Archbishop of which is selected by the Prime Minister. The monarch is the Defender of the Faith - fidei defensor. The Prime MInister conspicuously goes to church, although it is beginning increasingly clear that he has in effect converted to Catholicism. Probably a fair chunk of the population would profess to being "Christians".

And yet the church is almost totally ineffectual outside its own members, and rarely even then, as a doctrinal entity - more valuable, if anything, for its work in the local community. The "Christians" will attend Church at most once a year, and not allow their professed Christianity to affect their lives in any way, shape or form, barring possibly what they do of a Christmas Eve. Evangelists and Extremists do have power bases, but largely among the powerless. Ironically, the creaky old Church of England often depends on the Anglican communion among citizens whose family hail from the very countries whose inhabitants were slaughtered and sunjugated in the name of Christ to keep their congregations healthy. THe government is secular and getting more so by the minute, as the abolition of the old-fashioned Second House, full to the gills with crusty old buffers still advancing Christian ideologies in their attempts to crooklock society against the "immoral" elements they so frequently fear.

So, what is the church in England *for*? Having seen one friend confirmed and one ordained in the last fortnight I am curious, but I really don't think it has much pull on the way we live. Like the monarchy, it seems to function primarily as a historical repository, and is probably about as inviolable, rather than as a force in modern thinking.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:24 / 02.07.02
...USA's status as One Nation Under Educated...

Boooo. It may or may not be true, but it's still lame.

how much religion do you see in your government? amongst the majority of your country? amongst the people around you? and you personally? how much do you think one affects the others, or your feelings of such? does or would the pervasiveness of religion bother you if it did/does differ from your own beliefs?

1. Little to none. But I'm a Discordian, and my thoughts on government and it's lack of existence may contradict your own.

2. Lots. It's still the most popular religion. Down south, it's not uncommon to be ambushed on the street, at school, at a hockey game or in a bathroom by a person (with good intentions, I'm sure) asking if you've accepted Christ as your saviour. Prepare for a five minute delay if you say "no". Also, copies of the New Testament are frequently given out on street corners.

3. Lots. My family is Catholic, and many of my friends are as well. One is on his way to become a priest (albeit an evil one).

4. In me? Little to none. Although I've been playing with the idea of joining a Buddhist monastery for a month. That's as organized as my spiritual side is going to get.

5. I haven't lived in Detroit long enough to answer for the city, but in the south I would definately say there is enormous pressure from society to be a Christian. Not from the government, naturally, but virtually everything else.

6. It depends on how pervasive you're talking here. I'm fine with it at present.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
17:25 / 02.07.02
A cruel man might attribute that to the USA's status as One Nation Under Educated, but not I.

A perfect example of why atheism has failed to take hold in the U.S. -> Atheists, particularly those prone to prosyletizing their (absence of) faith, are seen as arrogant and too big-for-their-britches. It's okay to be educated in the U.S.; professionals are highly respected. It's when that education develops into a sense of superiority over "normal folk" that those "normal folk" get suspicious. The virulent anti-theism of someone like Richard Dawkins is completely out of character with the "land of steady habits."

And how, pray tell, does it take education to be an Atheist/unbeliever/nominal believer/what have you? There are just as many ill-informed, inconsistent ways of being an atheist as there are being a believer.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
17:37 / 02.07.02
Back to BK's original Question


how much religion do you see in your government?

I find expressions of piety by those elected/running for office to be distasteful in the extreme, rather like flaunting one's heterosexuality in public, to borrow a well-worn phrase. Unfortunately, this expression of faith seems a prerequisite to getting elected in the U.S. (can anyone name a prominent atheist politician?)

The current administration is chock-full of professed believers in JC. While it may be hard to square their Christianity with their policies, there's no reason that someone shouldn't be an openly professing Christian (or Muslim, or Jew, etc.) in public life.



how much religion do you see amongst the majority of your country?

A lot, at most of it is the kind that would lend credence to Haus's slur above. Things like the popularity of the "Left Behind" series and fervently professed belief in predestination vis-a-vis political events scare the hell out of me.


how much religion amongst the people around you?

I know a lot of people who go to church regularly, but have "liberal" politics. Most people I know who are believers are the mushy "god-is-love" type.

and you personally?

I'm fascinated by religious behavior, ancient religions in particular. I was raised Catholic, but I find the institution pretty much impossible to support. I don't consider myself 100% atheist, but more on that axis.
 
 
grant
17:40 / 02.07.02
By "everywhere" I meant it pervades both countries (and all countries) since it (religion) isn't an attachment to politics, but a whole other plane of human expression.

They do intersect at interesting points, though, don't they?

I sometimes wonder what them Holy Roman Empire Popes were thinking... power bases, probably. Which is a strange thing for religious types to be thinking.

Had no idea it was the PM who selected that Canterbury guy (my hunch was that it was done within the church).

My better half comes from an Episcopal (Anglican) family. I wonder if they could be considered a British fifth column in this country... the confounded anti-Papist rascals.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:24 / 03.07.02
Things like the popularity of the "Left Behind" series and fervently professed belief in predestination vis-a-vis political events scare the hell out of me.

You fucking snob. You get your ivy-league nose out of the air and stop wailing on my brothers. What's stupid about the Left Behind series or a belief in predestination? Well? Why couldn't you have a *clever* belief in predestination, like Nietzsche? You elitist Americanophobe. You're just the kind of cruel man I was talking about.

Grant - it's an interesting one. The Church of England puts forward two possible candidates, and the PM has the opportunity to accept either one of them, or to dismiss them both. In practice, this is unlikely to happen. It does, however, mean that the Prime Minister gets to decide on the direction fo the church of English for the next (usually) 10 or 20 years. This usually boils down to a choice between orthodox and evangelical wings (this time around, it will probably be between the Bishop of Rochester for the Evos and the Bishop of London for the Orthodox), although the ordination of women has muddied the waters (evos are usually but by no means always for, orthodoxes often blot their copybooks, London included, by being against) and the question of homosexual priests. ONe could divide it into a Boston Matrix, with "Modernising" and "Traditionalist", "Low Church" and "High Church" as the terminal points of the two lines. Most are either Low and Modernising or High and Traditionalist, but by no means all. Last weekend I was at the ordination of a friend of mine (who rather proves that you don't *have* to be dumb to be a Christian, in the face of Picasso's Harvard Fight Song snobbery, what with her degrees from Oxford and Cambridge), who is a High Church Moderniser, as well as being a woman. It's all a bit confusing.

Meanwhile, Anglican priests too scandalised by the ordination of women to endure it have seceded to the Roman Catholic Church, causing terrible trouble as they are allowed to keep their wives, undermining the insitution of the celibacy of the priesthood. It's like a more glam version of Sunset Beach.
 
 
Ganesh
09:00 / 03.07.02
Other than Tony Blair's lip-service to a nebulous sort of Christianity, I don't see much evidence of religion in the UK's government. As Haus says, the Church fulminates about this and that every once in a while (women priests, gay adoption, blah blah) but seems to extend little or no influence outwith its own dwindling fanbase. Like Morrissey without the prospect of a comeback album.

On a more day-to-day level, I was wondering about the concept of 'church-going' or being a 'church-goer' in both the UK and the US. Admittedly, most of my knowledge of the US version comes from a combination of dry statistics (90-whatever percent attend church) and 'Judge Judy' ("We met at church, your Honour"), but it does seem that not being a 'church-goer' attracts a mild degree of disapproval. Yes? Conversely, in the UK, individuals under, ooh, fifty who professed to be regular 'church-goers' would likely be treated by many with slight caution - y'know, they're a bit, well, 'bible-thumping'...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:25 / 03.07.02
And "believing in God" or "being a Christian" without churchgoing or bible-reading, which probably describes a lot of the UK, makes for a very interesting theology.

For example, the Nicene Creed covers off a lot of the basics - holy trinity, begotten not created, te tum te tum - which are often pretty cloudy in the mind of the modern Great British Christian. Christianity becoms, in effect, an enabling mechanism for sentiment - a non-abusive father figure welcoming relatives and pets to Heaven. A handy moral arbiter to explain why you stealing Jim from Mandy was right, but Tricia stealing Jim from you is evil. A court of appeal where every conviction is quashed.

My name is Tannhauser, and I read Take a Break. But with your help and support, maybe I can stop.

It's a shame, because Christianity fucking rocks if you get it right. See here just for starters.
 
 
Ganesh
09:42 / 03.07.02
Oh, Christianity is cool; it's just 'church-going' that's a bit... well, gay...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
11:51 / 03.07.02
[slap-fight]Oh you big meanie you[/slap fight]

Oh, Christianity is cool; it's just 'church-going' that's a bit... well, gay...

This might get me into trouble, but I think church-goin' could use a little more "gaying." Properly done, Mass should approach the total-sense assault of something like high opera. A religious experience provided by mass should involve a sense of transport, senses inflamed by the chorus, giant-scale architecture, baroque costumes, and the smell of incense. At least, that's what I would look for in a mass. Church-going should be more of a communal event, more rock concert and less mumbled prayers. I'm sure they're are churches full of fervor and unity, but most of the congregations I've been to have seem clapped out. Bring back the mystery and the drama, which would add dignity to the now quotidian spetacle of transubstantiation. And (to get on Haus's good side) bring back Latin mass.
 
 
grant
13:33 / 03.07.02
Haus:Meanwhile, Anglican priests too scandalised by the ordination of women to endure it have seceded to the Roman Catholic Church, causing terrible trouble as they are allowed to keep their wives, undermining the insitution of the celibacy of the priesthood. It's like a more glam version of Sunset Beach.

Yeah - growing up, one of my sister's best friends was the daughter of an Anglican bishop. He converted to Catholicism, then wound up teaching at our Catholic high school - which must've confused some of the other students terribly. ("Mary Louise is lying about Father Watterson again!" "Uh, no, he really IS her dad....")

I really like moments when the "High Church" (as much as the high/low distinction exists in Catholicism) gets progressive - like when Pope John Paul II started agitating against the death penalty in Florida a few years ago. Conservative Catholics (like the immensely powerful Cuban Republican bloc) were sort of torn between church and state on that one.

On church attendance: I'm continually surprised at just how many people I know do go to church fairly regularly. It's like all of a sudden I feel I have to redefine them - especially if they fit into the "hardened cynic" or "consumerist" boxes in my head.

Although, to tell the truth, I'm *more* surprised at how many Jewish coworkers regularly attend temple. (One of my coworkers quit being a tabloid journalist and became a cantor.) I'm surprised, I suppose, because the real worship in Judaism takes place at home, and the synagogue is ostensibly more about learning the faith and less about expressing it - although, culturally, showing up on Saturday seems to be much the same as showing up on church at Sunday. Wearing the nice duds, making an appearance, solidifying community ties, that sort of thing.
(And bringing up Palestine can be a very dangerous thing around here.)

I will also say that regular church/temple attendance seems to be more prevalent among people in their 40s and up than people in their 30s and down, which probably has more to do with being (perceived as) an upstanding member of the community than actual religious faith.

Among the younger Christian faithful (read born-again Protestants) I know, going to a specific church seems to matter less than attending any church. People change them like they'd change, oh, beauty salons or gyms. "I used to go to First Baptist, but I'm at Lake Worth Presbyterian now." The born-again movement seems to emulate Judaism in that the religion becomes more an independent, home-based matter, and less connected to church hierarchies. The Bible study over the celebration of Mass.
Which is, after all, a pretty seductive ideology. Do what thou wilt, as long as it comes from the Bible....

On the "rockingness" of Christianity: might be worth browsing The Door (the world's pretty much only religious satire magazine).
From their Writer's Guidelines: Beneath the brilliant humor, the wicked satire, the jaw-dropping interviews, the witty bon mots, we've got an actual purpose for putting out the magazine. We're the guys and gals who shout, "The emperor's got no clothes!" We're the people who are all about busting idols. We're folks who are interested in holding a mirror before the Church.

Why? Because we love the Church of Jesus Christ. We expose venal televangelists not because we're opposed to Christians, but because we're opposed to people who make a mockery of the Cross. We do it because we're called to do it.


The editor also signs off with "Excelsior!" so you kind of have to like him.
 
 
netbanshee
16:37 / 03.07.02
quoting grant:

The born-again movement seems to emulate Judaism in that the religion becomes more an independent, home-based matter, and less connected to church hierarchies. The Bible study over the celebration of Mass.
Which is, after all, a pretty seductive ideology. Do what thou wilt, as long as it comes from the Bible....


I've witnessed people utilizing "home" worship or taking on religious affairs in a more active way lately than say making your "timely appearance at sunday mass and the church bazaar" way. It's a bit refreshing to see that people can take it seriously and integrate it in their lives more than a timely, regulated ritual. In essence, how a devout or active lifestyle can work.

I've been doing work for a law firm with religious overtones and an upcoming religious community center and find how generally non-religious oriented business or casual talk can become infused with teachings and religious guidance. At times it can be annoying when you're trying to reach a point during a meeting and you find yourself suddenly subject to it (as an outsider) but if you understand or have a background (I was raised catholic) you can turn it around and use it as a hook. Knowing your parables can get you favorable results and in some ways a little more respect than a general "outsider" to them.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:44 / 03.07.02
It's like a more glam version of Sunset Beach.

Hee! That's why even though I'm not a Christian, I'll still claim to be Catholic occasionally. All the drama makes it too much fun to avoid. And mocking Protestants, especially southern Protestants, is a vice I don't think I'll ever get rid of.
 
 
w1rebaby
17:48 / 03.07.02
grant: you might want to check out Ship of Fools: the Magazine of Christian Unrest. Christian-related humour, with general disrespect for the more ridiculous manifestations of faith.
 
  
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