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Sequel to the guitar advice thread: Help me Rock..

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08:50 / 02.07.02

I got a guitar. Learning to make sounds on it is fun, but my attempts to "Rock Out" have proved woefully inadequate.

I'm aiming for Black Sabbath and I'm getting Teenage Fanclub - something is clearly amiss, and volume doesn't seem to help..

I can jangle like a bastard, but how do I riff and dirge and skronk?

I hope the Rock Gods haven't cursed me..

08:51 / 02.07.02

Distortion pedal?

09:10 / 02.07.02

Don't forget palm-muting. I never got taught that, it just started happening - damp the chords with the back of your right hand, you get a tighter sound rather than ringing. And yeah. Distortion, distortion pedal, and bear in mind that a little practice amp won't sound as Sabbath as you'd like...

What did you end up getting, then, Riz?

10:24 / 02.07.02

The formula to remember Riz:

Open chords = jangle
Barre chords = awesome rock powah(tm)

With no open notes in the chord, you can control the sound you want by how hard or lightly you press with your left hand (assuming you're right handed). Also for a lot of what you want you'll only need to use strings 654 or 543 (6 being the fattest), which makes it pretty easy even if you don't have the wrist strength yet. And by lifting one finger up and down while keeping the rest where they are, which changes 2 notes in the chord, and moving the same combination up and down the neck, you can get blues-ish riffs happening fairly easily.

The Return Of Rothkoid

10:37 / 02.07.02

Riz:

Drop the low-E to D. Then play with one finger. Riffrock has survived on that shit for years. Hey-presto: Tool/RATM/Helmet/whatever riffs are yours. And you sound Brooding and Deep. And stuff.

Alternately, just play a basic E chord and stand in front of the amp. Feedback into eternity...

Also; it's worth learning some scales, maybe. Angus Young's gotten a fuckload of mileage out of the one he knows...

11:55 / 02.07.02

Riz - two words:

POWER CHORDS

Use only the root note/fifth/octave (basically an abbreviated E barre) to get vicious metal noise.

And definitely get some distortion going on - but be careful not to make it to trebly. Cause then you'll sound like Wheatus or something.

A

13:22 / 02.07.02

...Aiming for Black Sabbath and hitting Teenage Fanclub?

...isn't that like aiming for the ceiling and hitting the moon?

13:37 / 02.07.02

But bear in mind - get the open ones sussed. Once you've got E, A, C, G and D, every barre is based on them. So it's easy to noodle around with "new" chords.

Also, barres are a pain at first and they don't get easier, you just get more practiced and your hand gets tougher. But yeah. Whap up the neck with that second finger across it and you'll be sorted...

15:00 / 02.07.02

One thing- what kind of guitar didja get?

A strat-type with single coil pickups is never really going to make any serious brown-trouser noises. Plus, a strat has a longer scale length and less of a camber on the fingerboard, which all contributes to the slinky/jangly tone.

If the tone is too 'skinny' then I'd try the following:

1. If it's a Strat- make sure you're switched to a single pickup (usually the bridge pickup for maximum nastiness and the neck for fatter noises)
2. Roll off a *little* treble on the guitar (too much and it just goes weedier)
3. If you have an amp with EQ, either a) turn the bass and high end up, and the mid down or b) put bass and treble about 1/2 way and mid on full- whichever works best for you, but often that SKROOONK tone is based on very extreme EQ settings.

Incidentally, the Sabbath sound: Gibson SG neck pickup, into a 100 watt Marshall head with plenty of bass and mid, not much treble and the gain absolutely *roasting*, no reverb but maybe a little very fast delay (<50ms) to thicken it up.

15:16 / 02.07.02

Gibreel:

"but be careful not to make it to trebly. Cause then you'll sound like Wheatus or something. "

Depends how you do it - you could end up sounding like Big Black. The kids today, see, are too hung up on getting a fat sound, they don't understand the shredding potential of massively overdriven skringggg and sklang noises.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

17:07 / 02.07.02

All excellent suggestions so far, but it would really help if we knew what guitar you were playing, or at least what kind of pick-ups.

If I need a fatter, rounder, or deeper tone on my Strat, I usually use the the neck and middle pick-ups with the tone turned down to 5, all behind a decent distortion pedal. Otherwise I just use my Casino, which has P-90's to give it a massive sound regardless of whatever you do to it.

The treble thing is a good idea, too. And it never hurts to learn a scale or two. Try a minor pentatonic:

Root note: (Let's say G). Play on the sixth string (the fat one)

Minor third: One full step and a half up to A#

Fourth: One full step up to C (on the fifth string, directly above G)

Blue note: A half step up to C# (this isn't really part of the scale; it's a "blue" note that sounds funny if you don't come at it from the C or the D. Gives a real blues feeling to an already blue scale)

Fifth: a full step from C or a half from C# up to D

Sixth: a full step and a half up to F (on the fourth string, directly above C)

Octave: a full step up to G

This scale pattern can be used in any key, so long as the root is on the sixth string. You'll find it useful in rock and blues mostly. Keep in mind that it's a minor scale and sounds like shit played over a major chord progression.

17:33 / 02.07.02

Whoh. Much good advise here, thanks. The possibilities, as they say, are endless.

I've got a cheap Vintage rip-off of a Yamaha Pacifica, which is functionally pretty identical to the cheap Stratocaster knock-offs, only it looks a bit less 'bought from Argos'. My amp is a 2nd hand 30 Watt one.

Made some better noise today, turning everything up and fucking around with the thicker strings.. I'm sure I'll get the idea (& the pedals) as time goes on..

18:52 / 02.07.02

Aside: What is it with guitarists and scales? I've always just found the right notes in the chords (and often not in the chords) and hit them. It might be a guitar thing; on keys, I never see the modal scales, which could be perhaps why my jazz/rock playing could improve. But it's not too shoddy. Blues scale, definitely, though. But everything else just happens. It's just strange - I listen to guitarists discussing solos (in a newsgroup I read) and they're always on about which scale will fit over what, and that's never seemed as important as just doing what sounds right. Anyhow, that's just me.

And Riz - sounds like you did OK. I've heard good things about Vintage, certainly in times of value and build quality. Have fun...

19:13 / 02.07.02

all i do is 'tune' the strings until they sound good and just FUCK the guitar. my advice, treate it like a machine, not an instrument.
ROCK OUT PURE BERZERKER STYLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

21:21 / 02.07.02

Beginner advice: the nastiest distortion in the world is 'overdrive.' If your amp has a gain knob and a volume knob, you can do this by cranking the gain up to 10 and the volume to (depending on how loud the amp is, how picky the neighbors are) 3 to 5.
You can get the same effect by going through *anything* that will boost the guitar's volume before the signal hits the speaker. This can be a pedal, a mixer, a four-track, a stand-alone effect, or just about anything. Crank up the signal, and listen to it crunch in on itself.
Nasty.

02:53 / 03.07.02

Here is the dumb, unorthodox method by which I learned: Rent videos of your favorite bands. Watch their hands. Then imitate. At first, you'll get crap, but you'll start to pick stuff up by jamming your hands on the fretboard in the same shapes they make. At least the simple ones, but that's all you need at first. Eventually you'll start to understand the relationships between the hand-shapes and the sounds, and discover variations. And it will get less clumsy as you practice.

I know it sounds like a load of turds, but after awhile you'll start putting things together. Seriously.

Also, one of those music books that teaches you basic chords can't hurt at first. You can use it for toilet paper after you learn a few, or study and memorize every page, depending on personal taste.

Or you could take up the bass, instead...

14:39 / 03.07.02

Beginner advice: the nastiest distortion in the world is 'overdrive.' If your amp has a gain knob and a volume knob, you can do this by cranking the gain up to 10 and the volume to (depending on how loud the amp is, how picky the neighbors are) 3 to 5.

Will do..

Also, one of those music books that teaches you basic chords can't hurt at first. You can use it for toilet paper after you learn a few, or study and memorize every page, depending on personal taste.

Have done, hense the three chords now in my possession.

Ramones Tablatures shall now be sought..

16:49 / 03.07.02

Tips for rocking: play with your dick. You'll soon build callouses!

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

17:20 / 03.07.02

I'm sure I'll get the idea (& the pedals) as time goes on...

Yeah, it's something you just naturally pick up (get it? Pick-up? Har!) as you go. Although hanging around other more experienced guitar players will help quite a bit.

Here is the dumb, unorthodox method by which I learned: Rent videos of your favorite bands. Watch their hands. Then imitate.

Not dumb at all. Much easier than trying to learn a song just by hearing the cd, which is what I did all the time (didn't have a VCR).

Grant's dead on about the distortion. With all this advice, you'll be rockin' out in no time and getting chicks like mad.

On guitar scales: People say all the time that there are no wrong notes in Blues, and that if you by any chance find one, just bend it until it sounds decent. Which is also true in rock. There are no right or wrong notes; it's all about what sounds you want. But learning the scales will help you find what you're looking for much, much quicker. It's like building up your vocabulary and studying other languages in order to see what words flow better with each other, and which ones crash against each other like waves and shores (or some other inspiring metaphor), just so you can write better poetry. You have to know the rules inside and out if you want to be able to break 'em just right. Plus, you'll be much more confident about soloing when you look at the neck and [i]see[/i] all the notes and patterns at once. It's like pulling up a chair to a buffet with that little sign saying "Go nuts, buddy".

07:28 / 16.07.02

I'm getting a second hand bass on Thursday (was meant to get it yesterday. Didn't. Soon will break shit if this continues). Gimme noise tips.

08:09 / 16.07.02

Bass is a leeetle different.

Whereas distortion/overdrive or lack thereof is basically the main defining thing in a guitar sound, with bass there are a bunch of ways to go. First: if you want a more attacking sound, use a pick rather than your fingers. you'll find that upstrokes and downstrokes make different sounds. To get it really solid and punktastic, only play downstrokes. If you want to play fingerstyle, let your right hand hang such that your fingers are more or less perpendicular to the strings and practice getting a smooth alternation between your first and second fingers. It's seriously useful to be proficient at both styles.

Then there's 'slap', where you basically hit the strings with the side of your thumb or pull them away from the body to get a hard, metallic sound. There are various tricks you can do to make this sound really fast and flash, but unfortunately you'll also sound really 80s.

In terms of amplification, it isn't gonna sound too huge until you plug it into a decent sized rig- you need something with lots of low end. I used to use a big 15" H+H speaker which was a fuckin' beast of a thing, and which I have very fond memories of. Guitar amps are probably not the best thing: you want an amp that'll stay really clean (if you want it to) at high volumes.

I could go on all day about bass- it's still a favourite instrument- but I'll restrain myself to adding two more tips. If you can get hold of a compressor, use it and experiment lots with it- it's the most useful effect for bass. Also, get your left and right hands as in-sync as you can- mistakes sound a lot clunkier on bass than they do on a 6-string. And listen to what the bass drum is doing and start from there when you're figuring out what to play.

Ok, that was three. I'm restraining myself now

Glad you're having fun with it, Riz!

08:37 / 16.07.02

Indeed I am.

I've got a very, very silly question though, that I probably won't be able to ask elsewhere without betting laughed at;

er.. what exactly is a barre chord?

Everyone seems to talk about them, but I can't actually find a definition of what they are..

09:10 / 16.07.02

6|-1---|
5|-1---|
4|-1-3-|
3|-1-2-|
2|-1-2-|
1|-1---|

Is that even right?

Stick yr index finger over the whole of one fret, and then make the normal chord shape with the rest of yr fingers. But don't put yr index on the fret itself, but where you finger norm ally goes for fret-playingness.

Why didn't you ask me in Brighton when I had hands to show you this shit?

11:26 / 16.07.02

If you meant to make an F major, then you've got your 2's and 3's reversed, Pin. What you've got is an Fmaj7b5sus4, or somesuch.

11:50 / 16.07.02

Err... the one where yu shove the E chord up a bit.

And bass pod- worth my time?

13:07 / 16.07.02

Bass pod is niiiiice.

I manage to get pretty groovalicious bass noises out of my regular red guitar Pod, but the bass version has some seriously classic sounds.

14:16 / 16.07.02

I used to think it was called a "bar" chord because your index finger makes a "bar" across all the strings.
Basically, it allows you to slide an E chord or an A chord up the neck to make any chord you like.

So is overdriving working? Does it frighten neighbors?

10:00 / 17.07.02

Let's rephrase that... bass pod worth all the money I'll make this fucking summer? Anythign cheaper? How much actually are they- does the internet just say things like $790 because it's fun?

Who wants to sell me a second hand one?

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

20:10 / 17.07.02

For some reason, I respect really good bass players more than really good guitar players. Weird.

Easy way to learn about bar chords: Play an E major.

1-open
2-open
3-first fret-middle finger
4-2nd fret-ring finger
5-2nd fret-pinkie finger
6-open

Move up to the fifth fret (A) and play the same pattern, but use your index finger to cover all the "open" positions. Your index will be on the fifth fret, pinkie on seventh, and so on. Move it all up a step to B. Congratulations! You've just learned Louie Louie, Wild Thing, and virtually every blues song ever.

Bar chords are more often prefered because of their lack of open strings (it's easier to control the sound without that way). Any open chord can become a bar chord, but A and E are the easiest, and since one is always either the fourth or fifth of the other, they go together nicely. When your ear starts getting sensitive, you'll be able to hear the 1st string vibrate when you pluck the A string and vice versa.

04:26 / 18.07.02

"For some reason, I respect really good bass players more than really good guitar players. Weird."

Bass is the easiest instrument to learn the basics of. But becoming a GOOD bass player is a motherfucker. A wise, old jazzman once said that it has less to do with the notes you play, and more to do with the notes you DON'T play. And until you understand that, you are just playing bass, you are not a Bass Player.

Took me a long time to learn that. Now I'm so good I don't play at all anymore. =)

10:59 / 18.07.02

One thing I wish I'd grasped earlier, in my learning to play, is that learning songs from tabs and books is fair enough, but it's easy to get a bit sloppy with the timing in this way, hence something you think you're playing quite well actually sounds shite, and you don't learn to play it well by playing it shite lots of times. I've been advised by a guitar teacher that it's best to master the beat of a particular part of a song by clapping it out first. Then play slowly at first, preferably along to a fixed beat (you can pick up a metronome for about £20) and gradually build up speed. You're unlikely to be able to play Smells Like Teen Spirit at full speed when you've just started so, although it feels, daft, start playing it slowly, but in the correct time, then build up gradually. And it'll sound much better.
This has certainly got me to the stage of being able to play particular songs in a way that sounds good (I think)- even though I'm not really an experienced player.

Also - just having the chords of a tune probably won't enable you to play it to a level that you're happy with. It's better to get hold of music that has every note tabbed out, as well as chords. There's loads of books available with this sort of stuff- 'play guitar with...the Stone Roses' etc -Virgin were actually selling them for two quid each recently.

14:22 / 18.07.02

Yeah all of that and more. A few boring tech things that will get you great mileage- boring but excellent habits...
With your fretting hand, make sure you pinch the neck with curved fingers- like holding a peach in your hand. That way you're not resting on the neck and you'll be able to move your hand around easily and quickly. Also, the strongest point on the hand is behind the middle finger, when you're playing get used to putting that thumb on the otherside of the neck from the middle finger. This will help a lot with barre chords and anything else. Do this even when you're not fretting with that middle finger.
Rips scales in proper order with alternating picking. It will develop not only dexterity and speed, but independence of the fingers. As you develop, you can funk up your scales, but this way, you are focusing on being able to let those fingers fly. Also, alternating picking is really important, it's another trick for the skill bag.

22:48 / 18.07.02

Gimme shiit to plonk about on my bass with! So far I can play the bass line from Where Is My Mind?. Which is the easiest thing in the world to play ever. I can play the bass, acoustic and electric parts to it. I can play the electric behind my head.

Gimem other stuff!

16:58 / 19.07.02

Are you familiar with Olga, Pin?

17:00 / 19.07.02

PS. Bass pod should set you back no more than £275 if you shop around- I'd go to Denmark St, I've yet to find a decent UK online music retailer.

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