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Fencing: The Martial Art of European Steel

 
 
grant
19:52 / 13.06.02
(Prefatory note: This doesn't quite feel "right" for the Magick, but it doesn't feel right for the Head Shop or Conversation either.)

After a brief flirtation in college, I've decided I may well pick up the sword again. I've been looking up classes in my area, and found a great article on the web.

Here's an excerpt:
My teacher, Mr. Logan, sometimes referred to fencing as "applied axiology." For him it was the physical manifestation of chivalric philosophy. The more I practice, the more I find this to be true.
For example, it is a long-standing tradition in fencing that the person who "receives a touch from" (is theoretically wounded by) the adversary, must acknowledge it openly. Perhaps you're familiar with the call, "Touche!" which means "I have been touched!" A fencer never claims a touch against his/her opponent- or even inquires about one that has not been freely acknowledged. But if the adversary concedes a touch you do not believe was valid, you must decline credit for it by replying "Pas de touche," meaning "Not a touch."
Even though there are five officials presiding over a fencing contest, fencers are still honour-bound to acknowledge all hits they receive. This, I believe, makes fencing quite unique in two ways, one very intriguing and the other very important.
The intriguing thing is that if fencing is only a "sport" (as some might insist) then it is the only one in which your opponent determines your score for you.
The important thing however is this: fencers acquire the habit of being honest, gracious and, above all, self-responsible.


and also:

Combat, the fencer quickly finds out, is extremely dangerous business and even under the best circumstances, you are quite likely to be badly injured, if not well-killed. And doubly so if you are the aggressor. It is particularly unlikely to succeed with an attack if your opponent happens to be ready to receive it. Clearly, fighting is a very poor last resort, to be avoided if at all possible.
I think this is a lesson worth learning and I believe it is learned best in very practical terms, rather than purely as an intellectual or philosophical construct. My theory is that the more you understand about real fighting, the less inclined you will be to fight.


Some of this talk of peace-within-violence and intrinsic honor seem really close to Eastern martial arts, only as a subtext rather than the explicit object of study.

So, are there any fencers here? Anyone have any tales of the "wisdom of iron" or mystic swordmasters?

I'd also be interested in links to fencing essays, and essays on any inner work with swords. What does fencing mean?
 
 
Chuckling Duck
21:45 / 13.06.02
I started my fencing career in high school, competing in electrically adjudicated foil matches at the local university’s open tournaments. I also learned sabre and epee. Unfortunately, the college I went to had no fencing team, so I joined the SCA and learned their style of reenactment rapier dueling. After moving to Chicago, I hooked up with the Chicago Swordplay Guild, a martial arts club that studies the rapier techniques of reneissance figures Agrippa and DiGrazzi among others, as well as European broadsword dueling techniques.

It’s true that all the fencers I have known have placed great value on honor and integrity--at least, when it comes to fencing. It’s a good example of a code that’s almost never discussed and yet nearly universally observed. Then again, in rapier fencing, it’s pretty hard to deny when you’ve been hit--those blades are damn solid. Foil is tricker for the participants to judge, since a scoring touch can be too light for either participant to feel sure about through coat or glove. That’s why electric foil is so common in competition.

I also agree that there’s an incredible amount of camaraderie among fencers. I attribute this more to the personalities fencing attracts than anything else: hopeless romantics, martial artists and historical enthusiasts. We’re a jolly pirate gang together, I can tell you.

The author of the piece above says that the aggressor is at a disadvantage in fencing, which is doubly true when the fencers are unfamiliar with each others’ style. Going on the offense against an unknown opponent is a good way to get killed. But once fencers have learned some of each others’ tricks, the balance can shift the other way, with the aggressor being able to set the pace of the match to his or her advantage.

The bit about double kills is really only true when the fencers are evenly matched, or when one is a complete tyro and has no predictable style. It’s a poor fencer who fails to defend as he attacks. But I do agree that it teaches you how dangerous combat is, and how unpredictable. Even the greatest fencers I’ve met lose points to strictly average fencers: not often, but enough to drive the point home (forgive the pun).

I don’t know that fencing has made me wise, but it sure as hell teaches you to live in the moment. It calls for both the adrenaline rush and total focus, pulling you into the here-and-now like a sweaty form of meditation. I wish I could express the joy I feel after a well-fought afternoon, comparing points afterwards with my fellows.

Man, now I want to go practice!
 
 
Trijhaos
23:23 / 13.06.02
Inner work with swords? Do you mean something along the lines of the Occult Swordplay Fenwick Rysen had up on the Chaos Matrix?

If that's what you're looking for; good luck.

Since the SCA was mentioned, I have to ask. Is it a decent place to learn swordplay of some sort, or should I just wait until I can find a fencing or kendo studio? Unfortunately, there aren't any fencing or kendo studios around here, but there is a SCA shire( I think that's the word).
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:48 / 13.06.02
I've played SCA a bit... it can be pretty fun, but not quite realistic... durring one of my first boughts I was using alot of my Philipino stick tactics... I kept getting disqualified as there are certain restriction instilled to keep people safe (no strikes below the knee).

Of course a "real" coombat situation would nullify such a ruling. beside most martial arts will teach you that strikes below the knee are very effective for a number of reasons... However how learns martial arts to fight anyway?

Similarly it appears to me "sports" like Kendo, Fencing & SCA have all deveated from the strictly martial applications of Arnis (Philipino stick fighting).

Still, it WAS a workout swinging a retan bat & carrying that heavy shield (stolen rail Road crossing signs) and armor. Though I hear Plastic armor is more and more popular thse days . . .
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
02:03 / 14.06.02
I would agree. I have a good friend who's an A class fencer (for those of you who don't know anything about fencing, A class fencers are monsters with a sword. They are spectacular, probably some of the best), and he's a real big asshole...except when he's fencing. He'll whip you and humiliate you, but he's honest.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:07 / 14.06.02
Qualifications for fencing are, it goes without saying, untrinsically ungentlemanly.

I'm on furlough at the moment with a busted knee (an old friend which has been with me for the better part of a decade), but intend to resume fencing as soon as I stop clicking and ouching. It's a surprisingly good workout (although the astonishing drinking culture does countermand that somewhat). On the "chivalric philosophy" front, well, yes, if that works for you. What interests is that it is a highly stylised (except arguably epee, which is why it is dull as ditchwater) representation of a distanced form - the function of your body is to minimise target area and maximise the reach, fluidity and accuracy of your blade. It's a very self-effacing form of combat.

Interesting - on the Touche front, One of the reasons I dislike electrical fencing so intensely is that it removes the human element from scoring, which makes it both less efficient and also less involving - the line judges are reduced to the role of bureaucrats.

Also, the point about the dangers of offensive action is a good one, but it's hardly a lesson exclusive to fencing - flipping through von Clausewitz could tell you the same.
 
 
grant
14:29 / 14.06.02
I'm interested in the split that other articles in the site up there references, a division between "Olympic fencing" and "classical fencing."
Olympic is electrically scored sport, while classical is player-scored art. At least, that's how the classical fencers see it.
The attack-leaves-you-open thing seems like just common sense, but the scoring on yourself - keeping the opponent's score - seems delightfully counterintuitive. Never really thought about it much before.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
15:39 / 14.06.02
Trijhaos, the SCA teaches heavy weapons (those big rattan sticks, meant to be medieval weaponry) and light weapons (Reneissance rapier). There are some very good swordsmen in the SCA, and a lot of enthusiastic dabblers. Depending on your shire, you might have one or more good teachers nearby, or you might not. Also, good teachers are in great demand, and new members have to go through a trying amount of kiss-the-ring-my-liege before they can expect to join up with one. Still, if you’re just interested in a good time, go for it.

Where are you located? I might be able to point you to a fencing studio or dueling society in your area.
 
 
Trijhaos
15:48 / 14.06.02
I'm located about an hour's drive north of Nashville. I know there aren't any local fencing studios, or I would have found them by now. I am willing to drive to Nashville if I have to.

I figured a person'll have to go through a bunch of bullshit with the SCA, but it's worth a shot.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
18:56 / 15.06.02
Qualifications for fencing are, it goes without saying, untrinsically ungentlemanly.

Be that as it may, over here it's unavoidable for competition or if you're looking to get some kind of scholarship.

There is a fencing studio in Nashville. I can't remember where, but one does exist.
 
 
Trijhaos
19:04 / 15.06.02
The Nashville Fencing Academy. It's located on 1500 Holly Drive. I need to give them a call sometime this week, get some information and all. I'm pretty sure all they teach is Olympic Style Fencing which is pretty disappointing. I don't like the idea of having to be all wired up and crap so hits can be scored.

Unfortunately, the nearest school that teaches Classical style fencing is in Oak Ridge, which is something like a 6 hour drive from here.
 
 
Mr Tricks
18:05 / 17.06.02
I passed your (grant) initial post to a co-worker friend of mine who actually pout himself through collage on fencing scholarships & is a very accomplished Kungfu practitioner/teacher... He travels to China quite frequently studying directly under several Kungfu masters & write some of our magazine's best & most informative articles... that said, here's his reply to the original post...


  • That article is so full of shit. Happens a lot in fencing. You're buddy is going down the path to fencing pretension, in knickers no less. Next thing you know, he'll be damned to the renn faire world. huzzah gag.

    Fencing is totally a military tradition, in fact on of my fencing degrees is from the army (never told you I was in the army, did I? - ROTC sepcial studies through out college.) The 'fence' in fencing derives offence and much as defence. Here's a link to my old place of employ (note that if you go to the armoury section, all the line drawing diagrams of the sword hilts are by me.) The two books he should look at are The Secret History of the Sword and On Fencing. (TCHotS is actually published by our competitors, IKF (inside Kungfu)- it was independantly published for years until they picked it up - a fascinating read, tho.)

    There's a thread on our forum that I'm active in - foot before sword or something like that - it's addressed to me. You should direct your friend there.

    Save you friend before it's too late...
 
 
grant
20:51 / 17.06.02
Yeah, the knickers and "huzzah" aren't a big turn-on. But I think even through that, the talk of honor and discipline ring true.

That hand-before-foot link is *great*, though.
 
 
Chuckling Duck
21:25 / 17.06.02
The knickers not a turn-on? You may be surprised.
 
 
cusm
16:26 / 19.06.02
I fenced in High School. We had a school sponsered fencing club, and managed to somehow snag a hard assed Russian olympic coach. For much of the year, I was the only one to show. Needless to say, I learned an awful lot, and loved every minute of it.

In College, I dabbled a bit with the SCA. The light fencers round my parts were mostly shit for skill, which left me pretty bored when most of them didn't even know what a disengage was. I was lucky enough to find a crazy old guy who taught Spanish military fencing. Real "this is how you kill someone and hold a line with a light saber" kind of fighting. I dug it greatly, though unfortunately didn't get very much time to train with him before my life and the SCA parted in different directions.

Saber fighting is nothing like fencing. Fencing is very stylized as a sport. Though there is a definite romance to it that may be more of a modern invention, much like the romance of the Samauri, where people forget how short lived and utterly trounced they were once they had to fight anyone other then themselves. Still, taken as a dueling style, I think you'll get a lot of the same things out of it as with any stylized martial art. The lessons of violence and skill are the same in any genre. And having done intensive point work myself, I'll say the internal stuff is definitely there as well.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
23:32 / 31.12.02
Just bumping it up. I'm taking this up this year as one of my resolutions.
 
 
penitentvandal
20:23 / 01.01.03
Used to fence myself, at uni. I wasn't particularly good at it, I have to say, but I did enjoy it...

It is very stylized, and I have noticed that completely untrained fencers can sometimes beat experienced ones, as I discovered when my team went up against another uni and had to stick me (a foilist) in the sabre competition as well. Lost my foil bouts, won two of my sabre bouts (with no sabre experience whatsoever)...Go figure.

Having said that I will say that a good, evenly-matched fencing bout can be a fantastic form of gnosis: the sustained concentration on the point coupled with the stress of competition produces an incredible rush. I've often thought that it would be cool to fence someone with a sigil inscribed on their mask and charge it at the moment of most intense concentration, firing it when one or the other combatants gets hit.

I also have fond memories of a session of japanese aido ( a formalised, kata-style of kendo) training, in which, again, I found the point-work could create a fascinating gnostic state.

And the sword is one of the four magical 'weapons', of course...

(synchronicity corner: I'm currently reading a book I got for Xmas, a history of swordplay called By the Sword...)
 
  
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