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Gimme that ol' Time Religion

 
 
Hieronymus
10:50 / 13.06.02
Stumbled over a few links today that got me thinking. First this:

The Republican platform also reaffirmed the state party's belief that the nation needs to "dispel the myth of the separation of church and state."

The party also added a new emphasis on fighting terrorism. The planks included a call to use "terrorist profiling" to determine who could be searched at airports; the revoking of student visas and deportation of persons from countries that have not declared themselves as allies in the war on terrorism; and the arming of airplane pilots.


And then this little gem:

Top Southern Baptist leaders Tuesday stood behind a former president of the denomination who called the prophet Mohammed, founder of Islam, "a demon-possessed pedophile."

And so I'm curious to have opinions bounced around on what impact, if any, does the Protestant Christianity of the great majority of Republicans have on handling relations with Muslim countries/issues? Does rhetoric like the Baptist Convention's actually speak for most Republicans or just the loud minority? And lastly when did the party of Lincoln become the "official" party of Jesus?
 
 
rizla mission
11:00 / 13.06.02
"dispel the myth of the separation of church and state"?
What the goddamn bloody hell are they talking about?

Aside from the fact that it's the worst (not to mention culturally/racially exclusionist) idea ever, I was under the impression that the USA was specifically set up as a secular nation and doesn't even have a unified/official church to which the state may attach itself even if it wanted to..

Sorry there's nothing terribly well thought out in this post, but, well, what utter, utter bollocks basically..
 
 
Naked Flame
12:49 / 13.06.02
Well, it would make wars so much simpler, and that's got to be a good thing, right guys?


guys?


hmm. where'd they go?

Riz- the US is, as you say, an avowedly secular nation. In the UK, we've had a constitutionally enshrined Anglican church for several hundred years now. But we appear to be muddling through the business of creating a pretty cosmopolitan society- arson attacks, riots, institutionalised racism and rank paranoia notwithstanding.

I think the issue is not whether a church/state symbiosis exists in principle on the statute books but whether it exists in fact. Religions with Agressive Hegemonising Tendencies will always be interested in a slice of political power, which they should almost never be allowed to have.
 
 
Grey Area
12:51 / 13.06.02
"Expressing concern about religious pluralism, Vines said: "And I will tell you Allah is not Jehovah, either. Jehovah's not going to turn you into a terrorist that'll try to bomb people and take the lives of thousands and thousands of people."

Nah, Jehovah wouldn't do something like that. He might make one man call for a holy crusade which will lead to repeated scenes of European armies plunder, raping and burning their way through to Jersalem, taking the lives of thousands of people. But that's totally different. Really. He told me so.

...fundamentalist people like that make me sick to my stomach.
 
 
Grey Area
13:00 / 13.06.02
While it may be well and good to codify the separation of church and state into your countries constitution, the fact that the democratic system allows anyone to run for government office can lead to a blurring of the boundaries between the two. Let's face it, if an ultr-religious candidate were to run, and he/she spouts enough bible-rhetoric, they would be assured of the support of the sincerely religious element of society. If this support is enough to get him or her into office, then the church would have an inlet into the state. The only way to combat this would be to only let aetheists and agnostics run for government posts, and this would contradict the freedom of religion aspect of the constitution, not to mention the very principle of democracy.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:23 / 13.06.02
A secret: all that end-to-secularism talk? Gets votes. Probably nothing to worry about.

The other stuff, however? WORRY away.....
 
 
alas
18:31 / 13.06.02
on the "US as secular state" (I almost wrote "sexular"--so the twelve year old part of my brain is doing a "nudge-nudge") line. What your typical protestant fundie will say that the founding fathers were Christian men, that the "wall of separation between church and state" was from a letter by Thomas Jefferson, not an official document, and that the 1st amendment was not designed to get prayer out of schools.
Here's a scary little item from conservative petitions.com which pretty much says it all. yipes.
 
 
SMS
21:48 / 13.06.02
If an ultra-religious candidate were to run, and he/she spouts enough bible-rhetoric, they would be assured of the support of the sincerely religious element of society. If this support is enough to get him or her into office, then the church would have an inlet into the state. The only way to combat this would be to only let aetheists and agnostics run for government posts, and this would contradict the freedom of religion aspect of the constitution, not to mention the very principle of democracy

I'm having problems with the language "ultra-religious" and "sincerely religious." I see no reason why a sincerely religious person might not feel uncomfortable when politicians start spouting off bible rhetoric.

Religion can inform every aspect of a person's life, including politics, and this, I think, is not a bad thing.

When we talk about "the Protestant Christianity of the great majority of Republicans," I'm not sure what we mean. If you say, "Southern Baptists," then I have a better understanding, but then I would guess the majority of Republicans aren't Baptists. And even then....

And I know we all understand that and tend not to qualify our statements for the sake of brevity, but I think that it should be noted.

And it's also part of the question. Is this kind of attitude expressed at the Baptist Convention just the loud minority? I think that it is very difficult to say without conducting some fairly extensive studies. In my experience, I have encountered a number of conservative Christians, none of whom have ever expressed views that Muslims, or Muslim nations ought to be treated as somehow beneath Christians. But I live in a fairly well-educated neighborhood, and I have heard other stories from friends in a small town in Arkansas.

Another problem in answering the question is that political views can impact the religious views. Because everyone tends to work on these simultaneously, it is very difficult to separate.

Unfortunately, a lot of our relations with Muslim countries IS the rhetoric. So even if this is just a loud minority, a loud minority could still have a significant impact on both policy, and the way our country is viewed from abroad.
 
 
Hieronymus
22:46 / 13.06.02
And that was pretty much what I was taking a stab at (stabbings done in the morning before coffee evidently not very good stabbings at all) with regards to this thread. Rather than make it a dogpile of holy roller bitching, I was actually wanting to get to the meat of why 'born again' Protestantism (and Catholicism for that matter) has become so deeply intertwined the GOP and if it's actually choking the life out of it. Does WASPy extremism undermine/weaken any of its platforms amongst the whole public? Right-wing, leftist and moderate?

The article regarding the Baptist Convention proclaimed them at 8500? strong, which seems to me to a very small number. How does that compare to other caucuses within the party and outside the party, The NAACP or the League of Women Voters, etc. Are they (they being hawkish Protestant literalists) in fact the loud minority? There's obviously enough of a threat of "RINOs" to "real" Republicans that seems to indicate that the Southern Baptists do not have a grip on the party or at the very least it's tenuous. Or maybe not.

Hmmmm. I don't think I'm really helping my own thread.
 
  
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