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Holocaust Hypocrisy

 
 
Rev. Wright
15:12 / 11.06.02
The content of this site is very engaging.



Dead Palestinian civilian is carried away from lineup after being summarily shot by Israeli soldiers, March 31, 2002. Other Palestinians awaiting selection huddle against the wall.
 
 
Turk
18:52 / 11.06.02
Fuck off.
Sure it's evil, but fuck off with the anti-Semitic 'Holocaust Hypocrisy' bullshit, you twat.
 
 
Turk
18:56 / 11.06.02
Well, if you're pedaling that crap because you agree...

(Apologies if you aren't. I'm used to replying to the people on Michael Moore's Message Board, they post that stuff and mean it!)
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
19:00 / 11.06.02
If Israel were engaged in a campaign of extermination, would it be anti-Semitic to talk about it and deplore it?

Can you be Anti-Israel without being an Anti-Semite?

I'm very suspicious of the site in question. I'm also very unhappy that the inquiry into what happened at Jenin was derailed.

Let's try to keep this dialogue a little more level-headed, shall we? This isn't an issue which is going to be usefully discussed if we start flinging names at one another.
 
 
Turk
19:13 / 11.06.02
I simply find it exceedingly unhelpful, if not deplorable, to bring the Holocaust into the current events. It serves no point but to attack Jews rather than deal with the politics and wrongdoings of Sharon.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
20:01 / 11.06.02
The problem is that it is such an apt metaphor. It may be in poor taste but whenever there is wrong doing it is compared to the Nazis.

The scary thing is that there seems to be a growing voice in Israel that thinks that Sharon is too "moderate".
 
 
The Monkey
20:37 / 11.06.02
The difference between this and the Shoah being that Palestine's leadership cadre has actively kept it's people in those camps and allocated funds that should go to maintaining quality of life to propaganda campaigns and, more recently, to ordinance. A few ideogogues have tried to create a hothouse environment for the creation of like-minded hate-mongerers. It's amazing how if you keep your people scared and uncomfortable, yet can blame it all on an "other," your constituents don't contest your policies or rationale.
The perverse similarity is that all of those nations that abhor what's happening to the Palestinians...all of the neighboring countries...also won't permit the Palestinians to immigrate or resettle in their territory. Indeed, the "oppression" of the Palestinians by Israelis and the subsequent counteractions serve to keep the Israeli military infrastructure busy and directed away from potentially-expanding borders.
 
 
grant
20:45 / 11.06.02
Slighty off-topic, highly pedantic semantic note: Palestinians are Semites, too. Can't be pro-Palestinian and anti-Semitic in the same sentence.
 
 
The Monkey
21:16 / 11.06.02
None of this precisely justifies Israeli's action, but there is far more involved than a direct comparison to the Holocaust.
The Palestinians as a global socio-political entity...or at least the de facto leadership...have established a policy set that values "the cause" over their constituents, leaving the latter in harm's way to provide a sort of object lesson and propagandic centrepiece.
Perhaps I am not an idealist, but I fail to see the value in this kind of martyrdom ethic. Which matters more to the construction of "the Palestinian people"...land rights or the people themselves? Certainly, Palestine should not have to be in this position...in a better world Israel would acquiesce...but there's even less sign of this happening than ever.

So it's realpolitik time. Israel won't knuckle under; their military is operating under a shoot-first basis. The appeal to international aid has failed
As a leader, what does it say when you command your people to sacrifice themselves for...not a concept, even, but possession of land...? To batter themselves bloody against a force which they cannot dent with available tactics?
This is not Bannockburn...the nobility of wars for freedom exist almost wholly in the post-analysis. Sometimes retreat is necessary to establish a position that is stable and defensible. The value of the suicide attacks is no longer strategic: Israel has elected "fight" over "flight" in response. The men and women saddling bags of explosive and dead man's triggers are now simply symbols of an ideal made dubious by the means used to achieve it, and I cannot accept that this idea is worth dying for, nor killing for.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
04:44 / 12.06.02
pretty much off topic by now, but the site referenced in the first post is pretty suspect. the creator refers to himself as a "revisionist historian" and has headlines like "The Zionist-controlled corporate media will not report this fact! But you can read all about it in" and by zionist he does not mean the israeli government, he means the nazi/jewish/communist/rockefeller etc etc typical conspiracy right wing boogey man. his books has chapter headdings such as "he Occult Dimensions of the Great Game; Detecting the Great Game; Processing bin Laden; Bush Partnership with bin Laden" etc; and he sells a video that calls Anne Frank's diary a fake and OF COURSE "exposes" the reality of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

not that israel isn't commiting human rights atrocities, but get your fucking news sources in order. he's a right wing, jew-hating conspiracy writer and he's deliberately using the word "Holocaust" in an offensive and everybody-bating way, given that he's in the school of "The holocaust didn't happen."

again, yes, israel is doing horrible things in palestine, but given the writer's background, those photos could be of anything, just waiting for his manipulative captions.

wait, did i mention his book "Judaism's Strange Gods" which is "The Master Reference Work which Documents that Judaism is Not Based on the Old Testament"

i think this speaks to the discussion of this thread as a whole: while it's true israel is guilty of human rights abuses, calling it a Holocaust or comparing them to Nazis is a tactic generally used by people who weren't altogether against the Holocaust the first time around. one must be careful who's rhetoric one chooses to go along with.
 
 
The Monkey
05:28 / 12.06.02
Damn Mystery, I totally didn't pay attention to that. Thanks for pointing it out.
 
 
alas
20:54 / 17.06.02
The Palestinians as a global socio-political entity...or at least the de facto leadership...have established a policy set that values "the cause" over their constituents, leaving the latter in harm's way to provide a sort of object lesson and propagandic centrepiece.

hmmm: to what degree do all governments do this? Valuing "cause" (profit) over "constituents" (people) is what a great deal of capitalism seems to be based on. Does it make a difference if it's a conscious strategy or not? For example, somce chemical corporations produce many known carcinogens in their factories and also profit from chemotherapy treatments needed to treat those cancers. Or they put their name all over cancer-charities--e.g., Lee jeans "National Denim Day" for breast cancer awareness... (check out Barbara Ehrenreich's extremely cynical article "Welcome to Cancerland") Here's the point I'd emphasize:

. . . by ignoring or underemphasizing the vexing issue of environmental causes, the breast-cancer cult turns women into dupes of what could be called the Cancer Industrial Complex: the multinational corporate enterprise that with the one hand doles out carcinogens and disease and, with the other, offers expensive, semi-toxic phar-maceutical treatments. Breast Cancer Awareness Month, for example, is sponsored by AstraZeneca(the manufacturer of tamoxifen), which, until a corporate reorganization in 2000, was a leadingproducer of pesticides, including acetochlor, clas-sified by the EPA as a "probable human carcinogen." This particularly nasty conjuncture of interests led the environmentally oriented Cancer Prevention Coalition (CPC) to condemn BreastCancer Awareness Month as "a public relationsinvention by a major polluter which puts womenin the position of being unwitting allies of thevery people who make them sick." Although As-traZeneca no longer manufactures pesticides, CPChas continued to criticize the breast-cancer crusade--and the American Cancer Society--for its unquestioning faith in screening mammogramsand careful avoidance of environmental issues.

It's not exactly the same, I grant you, but it does point to the issue of "othering" that so readily happens on all sides of the Palestinian/Israel question . . .

I still think that US-led multinational military/petroleum-industrial complex is using the ongoing, intractable nature of this conflict to extract much of the wealth out of the region at fire-sale prices. And, to make things even more profitable, the whole region keeps focused on building up military arsenals, which it also gets from . . . We wring our hands and quietly believe that these darker skinned people are just "naturally" hotheaded, and powerful people continue to make LOTS of money off the conflict. Carlyle group, anyone?
 
 
SMS
01:00 / 18.06.02
Can't be pro-Palestinian and anti-Semitic in the same sentence.

You can according to dictionary.com. It defines an anti-semite as one who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.

It does have three definitions of semite, one of which is simply "a Jew." Merriam-Webster.com says basically the same thing.
 
 
Stone Mirror
04:25 / 18.06.02
"Will you think I'm crazy" writes The content of this site is very engaging....

"Engaging"....? Looking at the home page for this site, I find that it is "[my] source for suppressed information on Judaism's strange gods, secret societies and psychological warfare and radical history". Among the books sold via this site, there's one wherein the author reportedly "demonstrates that Judaism is a man-made religion of tradition and superstition, which represents the institutionalized nullification of Biblical law and doctrine".

Hm. Does anyone view this as suggesting that there's liable to be anything like even-handed reportage happening here?
 
  
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