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Armageddon. Literally.

 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:11 / 06.06.02
Sorry- web fu still down due to recent sunspot activity...

but...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,728090,00.html

Meggido (sp?). Armageddon.
Yes, probably coincidence. yes, had to happen sooner or later- a war like that will probably hit all areas in the vicinty eventually...
But- having been brought up by Christians who thought I'd find their brand of Christianity boring, and sent me along to lectures by madder and madder Christians...

I so don't want to know the mad xtians were right when I was getting told I'd burn in hell for laughing at 'em!

But, fuck. Talk about a derailment of the peace process. Hugely symbolic act. REALLY bad shit.
 
 
alas
14:26 / 06.06.02
me paranoid too--raised by similar type folks, Stoatie . . . and considering that US policy is driven by "madder and madder xians" of the sort you toddled off to in your youth, this kind of action does feel too symbolic for comfort.

i've been reading Stephen Zunes who, on an alternative radio broadcast that my partner heard last night, made what seems like an obvious analogy that i hadn't made before: the way that Jews were used in Europe, as middle men bankers to blame for economic woes during downturns and depressions, is exactly how US aid functions: we keep the pot stirring in the middle east, so we can take the oil, give them all dollars for military purposes, and then say, "Don't worry, world. We'll broker this 'peace' process. REALLY. We WANT 'peace.'"

It'd be the worst thing for the U.S (i.e., for the rich men who really run the US). if there was real peace in the region. If Israel and the Arab nations decided: you know, rather than fighting each other, we should use Israeli education and technological prowess and the work ethic and commitment and natural resources of the region to become an economic power house.
Maybe that's obvious to y'all, but it hit me like a brick. Duh! Of course! That's what we're about. It all makes sense. And how diabolical to cry "anti-semitism" when anyone opposes the way US foreign policy in the Middle East is currently structured!

alas!
 
 
unheimlich manoeuvre
15:04 / 18.09.04
*threadrot*
i'm troubled by linking to this article which is highly dubious and has bigger holes in it than the U.S. national debt, still it's pre-9/11 and draws together some of the cobwebs of international diplomacy, like the U.S. bombing of Sudan that has lead to current instablity. Hell, it might even make you laugh.
WARNING: Conspiracy theory, suspend disbelief before opening.
 
 
ibis the being
16:17 / 18.09.04
Well, I feel like I'm in a support group meeting or something. Hi, I'm ibis, I was raised by extreme fundamentalist Christians too!

It does frighten me on an irrational level when my dad tells me that our goal as a nation is to literally help bring the war between the West and Islam to a head in order to usher in Armageddon, and that the crux of our role in the Middle East is to secure the Holy Land for the Jews, because according to prophecy (insert scripture here)the Jewish people will gather in Jerusalem just before the Second Coming. Which of course we can't wait for. Despite the fire and destruction and our faces melting off etc.

It also frightens me on a more rational, but still totally paranoid, level when my dad tells me that Pres Bush "knows" all this, and that's why he's doing what he's doing in the Middle East. I don't know if that's true, but it seems plausible enough - if Bush is indeed a fundy - and that is chilling.
 
 
Baz Auckland
20:56 / 18.09.04
If it makes you feel better Stoatie: "The junction is called Megiddo"

The actual site of Megiddo is elsewhere... I remember reading years ago that they were planning a sort of theme-park where the Final Battle is to take place.



The History of Megiddo here....
 
 
flufeemunk effluvia
01:34 / 19.09.04
You guys do realize that GOD is reading this thread.

That means you're all fucked.

If you catch on and you arent supposed to, you are the LAST TO DIE.

By the way, was that Lyndon Larouche, inchoate?

Suspend disbelief. Heheh.
 
 
Simplist
17:01 / 19.09.04
Well, I feel like I'm in a support group meeting or something. Hi, I'm ibis, I was raised by extreme fundamentalist Christians too!

Likewise. Amusing that so many of us end up someplace like Barbelith...

What's more, I have in fact stood within the walls of Megiddo itself amidst a crowd of fundamentalist Christians on a religious pilgrimage. Beneath the city itself (which is atop a hill) stretches the vast Plain of Megiddo, upon which all the armies of the world are expected to assemble for the final battle. Despite being relatively "cured" of Christianity by that time, I admit that view still gave me chills.
 
 
Myshka
01:07 / 20.09.04
I hadnt realised before that Meggido/Armaggedon was an actual place before, but the issue of fundamentalist christians seeing war in the middle east as a necessary and desirable step towards God's return is something I've been very interested in lately. Heres a good article about Bush's policies and biblical prophecy.

I too, was raised by fundamentalist christians. My family have most of the left behind series in the house. These books about 'end times' (set in the very near future) are really popular in the USA - check out the deeply creepy website : leftbehind.com

After talking with my father about the Israeli occupation of Palestine, I started looking at what the bible says about these things, and I was reminded of just how vicious the biblical God encourages Israel to be in seizing other people's land. When people represent Christianity as being all peaceful and 'God is love' its easy to forget what the bible actually says. In the context of the Old Testament it seems that "Thou shalt not kill" is a strictly internal rule, covering only other people of Israel :

Deuteronomy 11, 23-25
then the LORD will drive out all these nations before you, and you will dispossess nations larger and stronger than you. Every place where you set your foot will be yours: Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the Euphrates River to the western sea. No man will be able to stand against you. The LORD your God, as he promised you, will put the terror and fear of you on the whole land, wherever you go

Deuteronomy 2, 31-36
The LORD said to me, "See, I have begun to deliver Sihon and his country over to you. Now begin to conquer and possess his land." 32 When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz, 33 the LORD our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them-men, women and children. We left no survivors. 35 But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves. 36 From Aroer on the rim of the Arnon Gorge, and from the town in the gorge, even as far as Gilead, not one town was too strong for us. The LORD our God gave us all of them.

Deuteronomy 7, 2
and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.

Numbers 3, 1-2
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people."
Numbers 1, 5-18
15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Numbers 25, 4
4 The LORD said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the LORD , so that the LORD's fierce anger may turn away from Israel."

exodus 32, 27-29
27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD , the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' " 28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29 Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."

Deuteronomy 2:12
Horites used to live in Seir, but the descendants of Esau drove them out. They destroyed the Horites from before them and settled in their place, just as Israel did in the land the LORD gave them as their possession.

Deuteronomy 13 12
If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock.

Ezekiel 9 5-6

5 As I listened, he [the LORD] said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.

All quotes from NIV

Sorry to post so many quotations, I got a bit carried away.
So can anyone help me on this one ?
Does "Thou shalt not kill" cover Palestinians ?
It seems to me that the modern image of christianity as a peaceful religion is totally incompatible with much of the Old Testament.
 
 
Char Aina
09:10 / 20.09.04
i was always under the impression that jesus rendered the old testament obsolete, if not invalid.
turning the other cheek, and all that.
loving thy neighbour, and thy neighbour being pretty much everybody, yeah?

isnt that second testament and its message of love the basis of the christian's particular branch of the family tree of the people of the book?
 
 
Myshka
09:53 / 20.09.04
It seems like it, but I have never heard of a christian explicitly rejecting the Old Testament as obsolete. It would make some sense if they said the New Testament superseded the Old and the Old was false. Otherwise what happened ? God altered his moral standards after having a son ? Why doesnt the New Testament have a bit in to the effect of 'sorry about that last book, I was in a bad mood before, but now Im nicer. Please forget all that stuff about putting other nations to the sword and all that.' ?
 
 
---
10:12 / 20.09.04
It also frightens me on a more rational, but still totally paranoid, level when my dad tells me that Pres Bush "knows" all this, and that's why he's doing what he's doing in the Middle East. I don't know if that's true, but it seems plausible enough - if Bush is indeed a fundy - and that is chilling.

That IS chilling. Also, if this is all wrong and God/Goddess don't really want this to happen, i'm really losing faith fast now that we have a chance of averting something like this with so many people actually fulfilling it as the days go by. We'd need miracles on a scale that would make most of the population fall on the floor from shock.

If the Gnostics are right, time really is running out fast by the looks of things.
 
 
ibis the being
13:42 / 20.09.04
i was always under the impression that jesus rendered the old testament obsolete, if not invalid.

Well, the biblical answer to this is, like all biblical answers IMO, subject to interpretation - Jesus says in the NT that he came "not to destroy the law, but to fulfill." One way to intrepret this - the fundamentalist-friendly way - is to say that the law (OT) still stands, which Jesus is making sure to point out, but that He embodies fulfillment of the law in that He is pure and sinless. And that when you accept him as your Savior and become born again, this sinless Spirit of God exists within you - and as a matter of course you're able to obey the law only when you're in Spirit (man being inherently evil and all).

But of course, even that one sentence is rife with possible meanings. By "the law," are we talking strictly Ten Commandments? Church law? Or more generally the Old Testament-era ways and customs of the Jewish people? By not destroying, does he mean they still stand? Or that he doesn't wish to obliterate the history and culture of the OT? Or that he doesn't wish to invalidate it, though it is no longer strictly necessary? And by fulfill, does he mean he's the only living example of a perfectly-obeyed law? Or is he simply saying he's fulfilling the prophecy that says one day a savior would come that would end the rule of "the law?" Or is he saying that, since Jesus=God and God=Love, love supercedes the law?

I've always wrestled with these aspects of Christianity - what kind of God would tell you to love thy neighbor and in the same breath tell you to forsake your family, your husband or wife, your own children? What kind of God would tell us that we're all inherently - ie, can't help it - prone to error and sin, but he loves us anyway so much he'd kill his son for us, and in the same breath say he's going to send this firestorm of demons and horrific plagues to ravage us all in the end days? I've heard the "official" response a million times, but I just can't, cannot, reconcile the Righteous Anger God with the Merciful Loving God in my head or my heart.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:44 / 20.09.04
. Otherwise what happened ? God altered his moral standards after having a son ? Why doesnt the New Testament have a bit in to the effect of 'sorry about that last book, I was in a bad mood before, but now Im nicer. Please forget all that stuff about putting other nations to the sword and all that.' ?

That's pretty much what "Process Theology" is all about—the notion that God, as a person, grows / changes / evolves—or that His relationship with humanity changes as we as a species grow and change, in the same way that a father relates differently to his children when they are infants than when they are young adults.
 
 
Simplist
15:17 / 20.09.04
i was always under the impression that jesus rendered the old testament obsolete, if not invalid.

Christians (to overgeneralized ridiculously for a moment) will generally apply that in areas they find convenient to do so, and ignore it in others. So for instance you'll often hear fundamentalist types referring to Leviticus 18 to support their opposition to homosexuality, but never Leviticus 19, which forbids men from shaving their beards, or Leviticus 4, which mandates the sacrifice of a young bull whenever one sins unintentionally.
 
  
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