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European Parliament votes to end data privacy

 
 
Fist Fun
16:43 / 01.06.02
The measure, which will be approved by the 15 EU member states, will allow governments to force phone and internet companies to retain detailed logs of their customers' communications for an unspecified period.

What do people think of this? It makes me think of the criticism the American security agencies have received for not preventing the 9/11 terrorist attack. Aren't increased surveillance measures a necessary outcome of this expectation of infallibility?

Perhaps it is a step towards this vision of the future.

Host: How was it possible for the surveillance network to be put in place so quickly?

Chun: Well, a lot of the infrastructure was already there. Companies monitored customers, the police monitored public places, the military monitored foreign countries. Once gnat-cameras became cheap and you could link everything up to data bases and face-recognition software, surveillance networks began covering larger and larger territories in more and more detail.

Is increased surveillance a bad thing though? Who has and will gain and lose from this?
 
 
w1rebaby
22:04 / 02.06.02
Who has will gain and lose from this?

Clearly, information gathered from increased surveillance will not be restricted to anti-terrorism use. It will be used for more mundane criminal prosecutions... and it will be used for political ends, since the powers are not properly subject to scrutiny.

It's no secret that anti-capitalist etc websites are routinely monitored and their hosts are often harassed. Increased powers (and, certainly in the UK, the powers are already quite extensive) will only increase the likelihood of this happening.

The "expectation of infallibility" is an unrealistic, US-specific, media-led one IMO. What people expect is that intelligence services will be competent - something that's lacking from the CIA/FBI incompetencies that have been revealed, and were pretty well-known beforehand.

I don't know about you, but I'm researching encryption techniques, in other words stocking up on munitions. On principle. I don't know if I will ever want to send an email that my government doesn't like, but I might.
 
 
Fist Fun
18:42 / 07.06.02
I don't know about you, but I'm researching encryption techniques, in other words stocking up on munitions. On principle. I don't know if I will ever want to send an email that my government doesn't like, but I might.

Yeah, you do PGP and all that and swap your private key with your friends and stuff...but...who does it benefit? I don't really have any secrets that I would want to hide from a fair, democratically elected, accountable government. Isn't the EU proposal a sensible and fair step? Couldn't it be an excellent tool to combat serious crime?
 
 
Mystery Gypt
09:34 / 08.06.02
well Buk, maybe you don't smoke pot, but just about everyone i've ever met does, and that's against the law. at a certain point in the surveillance curve, we'll be caught out to be an entire nation of criminals. Everyone will be breaking the law all the time, and the justice system will either collapse or reveal itself to be so arbitrary that there will either be a revolt or a national psychological depression of critical mass.
 
 
Fist Fun
11:35 / 08.06.02
I don't think the legislation is aimed at saving the streets from minor criminal infractions. If it did turn out that everyone broke laws all the time and that it was deemed necessary to stop this then there probably would be a revolt. That is a very, very unlikely scenario though.
If surveillance information was only to be used to prevent serious crime in an fully accountable manner would you support it then?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:27 / 09.06.02
From the Observer: "Police to spy on emails."

Fury over Europe's secret plan to access computer and phone data

Kamal Ahmed, political editor
Sunday June 9, 2002
The Observer

Millions of personal emails, other internet information and telephone records are to be made accessible to the police and intelligence services in a move that has been denounced by critics as one of the most wide-ranging extensions of state power over private information.
Plans being drawn up by Europol, the police and intelligence arm of the European Union, propose that telephone and internet firms retain millions of pieces of data - including details of visits to internet chat rooms, and of calls made on mobile phones and text messages.

In a move that has been condemned by privacy campaigners, a draft document passed to The Observer reveals that the EU is now drawing up a 'common code' on data retention which will be applicable in all member states.

Security and police sources said new powers on accessing personal data will come into force in Britain towards the end of the year.

'It is typical that such a significant change in the control over private information is being worked out in secret,' said Dr Ian Brown, a leading expert on data privacy and director of the Foundation for Information Policy Research.

'It does seem to have been Britain that has put pressure on other member states to put in place this type of legislation. In 99 per cent of cases it will be used properly, but what about the other one per cent? There is not enough scrutiny of what is going on.'



(This is not the full article, BTW.)
 
 
Naked Flame
12:32 / 09.06.02
Buk, with all due respect, I don't think you get it.

We're all criminals in some way, shape or form. And as fridgemagnet says, these powers are not subject to proper scrutiny. Surveillance can and frequently is misused to prove this point or that, and it's nearly always at someone's expense (if you don't agree with me on this, ask Rothkoid what he thinks...)

I appreciate your 'good citizens have nothing to fear' argument, but there is no such thing as a 100% good citizen who never breaks the law.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:34 / 09.06.02
Yeah, this one kinda freaked me, too. Not so much that they WILL (because, let's face it, they don't have the manpower) but that they CAN.
If (say, for the sake of argument) I decided to kill... oh, I don't know, any one of many celebrities I've said on here I hate and make the world a worse place... would any of this harmless banter be admissible evidence now?
Now, if they checked my personal irl conversation, then they'd have "TV's Carol Smillie" under 24-hour armed protection... or they'd stop her doing FOUR PAGE supplements in all the papers.

Seriously, though... this DOES scare me. Though I'm paranoid enough to have thought this was general policy anyway.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
20:26 / 09.06.02
It's not the "everyone's a criminal at some level" bit that has me worried. What worries me is that people who never ever break the law can still look like they might be doing so. Say by, oh, I don't know... reading a website devoted to discussing subversion?
 
 
Tom Coates
08:12 / 10.06.02
I think there are a whole number of issues here that are each worth of discussion. Firstly you have the tendency of laws to be passed that generally cannot be enforced. Every single person who has a car has gone over the speeding limit at some point. We've all littered as well. Most of us have received gifts or money at some point that we should account for in tax but forget to (because it's a small amount) or have taken cash-in-hand casual jobs. I wouldn't be surprised if many people in the UK have porn on their computers that they probably shouldn't have.

So yes, there is a point at which we are all breaking the law and the question then comes as to why we're not being prosecuted for it - and the answer is that in the vast majority of these minor cases, no one gives a shit. BUT, and it's a very important but, this means that if you were a member of a vulnerble section of society the possibilities of being punished for doing something illegal lie immediately in the hands of the authorities. Ie. if the police, the government, the judicial system, the Inland Revenue CHOSE to come after you, they would have little difficulty in finding SOMETHING that you'd done that they could punish you for. If you're all criminals, the reasons some people are prosecuted and others are not come from somewhere else...

Secondly there's this issue of 'big' or 'little' crimes. This reminds me a lot of the arguments surrounding surveillance cultures of every kind. Basically the argument goes that for every camera built there's a man with a cup of coffee who has to be looking for something bad to be happening on it. For every e-mail sent you have to have someone with a mission LOOKING for illegal activity - and probably looking for specific illegal activity. And hence only the truly bad will get punished and caught. The rest of us won't be examined...

It's a nice theory. But it's wrong. And it's wrong because the power required to search through all this information and flag when something 'illegal' or even 'suspect' is happening GROWS EXPONENTIALLY EACH YEAR. As computing power gets more and more significant, the processing of information becomes increasingly just a matter of brute force - a brute force that wasn't available before. It's NOT inconceivable that in ten years all the government-paid-for CCTV cameras could be tracking faces across a city - across a country. In fact it's not even that unlikely. And then it's just a series of steps towards a complete record of our physical movements being available to people in power...

Now at the moment we're lucky enough to have a government that's unlikely to abuse this information TOO much. But governments change. Political situations change. It only takes a radical depression to trigger extremism. We could be in a far-right state in twenty or thirty years. You just can't tell! Germany at the turn of the century might have had some prejudice, but it was a far cry from the Nazi state of thirty years later. And if that state had thirty years of postal records at their disposal? Or had tracked every single Jewish person going to a synagogue, or every gay person going to 'known homosexual areas'?

You simply shouldn't, CAN'T, trust governments with this level of information. And the only way to stop it is to not provide them with the raw materials in the first place.
 
 
gozer the destructor
12:30 / 10.06.02
Whats the program called that records all conversations made that use certain words like bomb etc? Started by the Americans a while ago...like the point tom makes in the other thread, who needs manpower when computers can do that stuff?
 
 
Tom Coates
12:41 / 10.06.02
I have merged the two data privacy threads together because they seem to work more sensibly together. I hope people are comfortable with this. It seems to make a certain amount of sense...
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
13:01 / 10.06.02
Buk:...a fair, democratically elected, accountable government...

Name one...(/cynicism) All too easy to hit someone with enough little crimes to negate any good work that person may be doing.

In any case, the imperfections in the 'traditional' methods of evidence gathering adds what I believe to be an essential flexibility to the whole system. If there was no way to get away with even the little crimes, how could we ensure that laws keep up with public opinion?

For example, the review of cannabis laws at the moment is only happening because there are sufficient people breaking the law on a regular basis to suggest these laws may be outdated. If it was impossible to smoke pot and not be caught at it, the 'crime' would be suppressed to such an extent that any kind of sensible discussion becomes impossible.

The more information the system has, the more efficient and effective it will be. However, efficiency always comes at the expense of flexibility, which we cannot afford to lose here. Christ, this is why people spend years on Death Row, because we want to offer them every chance to rpove their innocence before our judgement becomes irrevocable.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
13:03 / 10.06.02
gozer: Echelon, isn't it? or is that the e-mail one?
 
 
gozer the destructor
14:41 / 10.06.02
That's the one i was thinking of, just backing up Toms point that what was previously thought of as being too big a job to be feasible isn't really that big a job with the technology that we have and that maybe we should take this seriously. It reminds me of a george carlin point, what's the purpose of airport security? are terrorist really going to be so stupid as to put a bomb in a suitcase? can you really make it safe to fly? or is it the illusion of safety that we want to create? is this the nanny state going to far? in my opinion yes, it is quite an obvoius breach of the most basic of civil liberties, privacy.
 
 
Tom Coates
17:11 / 10.06.02
I think you're referring to Carnivore.
 
 
w1rebaby
19:09 / 10.06.02
I am 100% certain that, if this bill is passed as is, it will be used in this country for the surveillance and suppression of political activists. The police here are already demanding records from sites etc; in the US, people have been arrested for making "terrorist statements" on BBs.

To my mind it's very clearly a directly political move, in response to increasing awareness and publicity that the net is a tool used by grassroots protestors to organise.

Similarly anyone who visits these subversive sites would be logged, if they had their way, which means, uh, everyone here, even if they only make jokes on the Conversation. Go on a demo? Nearly get arrested, give your name to a copper? Maybe they'll enter your name in the computer, find you've been "organising"... your name and picture will go on file... next time someone does something in the area, maybe your house will get raided. Maybe your email will be read and blocked. Maybe your employer will be informed. You could be on the front of the Mail before you know it as a baby-eating anarchist. And that's just if you're not engaged in any sort of political activity.

The only side to this which is faintly encouraging is the fact that technically, retaining full records is pretty much impossible for ISPs, and the police really don't have the technical skills to analyse the vast amount of data they will get - but if they go after a specific target, anyone even slightly associated is in trouble.
 
 
Fist Fun
20:19 / 10.06.02
Surveillance is a powerful tool. As such it could be open to abuse. How should we tackle that? We could dismiss it entirely or we could safeguard it against abuse. For me the latter option is preferable but I'm not sure if a complete safeguard is feasible.
There isn't any value in pondering what a far-right state would do with these powers. If such a government did come about then surely they would pass this sort of legislation anyway regardless of what had happened in the past.
Right now, however, if surveillance legislation is passed under the remit of a fair, democratically elected, accountable government with appropriate safeguards to prevent abuse then it could be a very valuable tool to prevent serious crime.
Everyone can agree that if increased surveillance is used to hammer down on minor offences or for political ends then that would be a gross abuse of the system. That isn't the aim though and speculating on what could happen if it was is avoiding the real issue.
 
 
some guy
21:38 / 10.06.02
[B]There isn't any value in pondering what a far-right state would do with these powers. If such a government did come about then surely they would pass this sort of legislation anyway regardless of what had happened in the past. [/B]

Of course there's value in theorizing - a facist state might well organize total surveillance once it came into power, but it couldn't possibly be retroactive. Authorize such invasions of privacy today, and future abusers have access to that information retroactive until today. I'm not sure I care to have my name logged on some record somewhere as a subversive because I've posted on Barbelith.

And leave Carol Smillie alone, dammit! ;-)
 
 
Margin Walker
04:57 / 25.07.02
A bit off-topic but, here's a story about the dark side of Google:

Source NY Times: Net Users Try to Elude the Google Grasp
By JENNIFER 8. LEE

THE Internet has reminded Camberley Crick that there are disadvantages to having a distinctive name.

In June, Ms. Crick, 24, who works part time as a computer tutor, went to a Manhattan apartment to help a 40-something man learn Windows XP.

After their session, the man pulled out a half-inch stack of printouts of Web pages he said he had found by typing Ms. Crick's name into Google, the popular search engine.

"You've been a busy bee," she says he joked. Among the things he had found were her family Web site, a computer game she had designed for a freshman college class, a program from a concert she had performed in and a short story she wrote in elementary school called "Timmy the Turtle."

"He seemed to know an awful lot about me," Ms. Crick said, including the names of her siblings. "In the back of my mind, I was thinking I should leave soon."

When she got home, she immediately removed some information from the family Web site, including the turtle story, which her father had posted in 1995, "when the Web was more innocent," she said. But then she discovered that a copy of the story remains available through Google's database of archived Web pages. "You can't remove pieces of yourself from the Web," Ms. Crick said.

The gradual erosion of personal privacy is hardly a new trend. For years, privacy advocates have been spinning cautionary tales about the perils of living in the electronic age.

But it used to be that only government agencies and businesses had the resources and manpower to track personal information. Today, the combined power of the Internet, search engines and archival databases can enable almost anyone to find information about almost anyone else, possibly to satiate a passing curiosity.

As a result, people like Ms. Crick are trying to reduce their electronic presence — and discovering that it is not as simple as it would seem. The Internet, which was supposed to usher in an era of limitless information, is leading some people to restrict the information that they make available about themselves.

"Now it's much more common to look up people's personal information on the Web," Ms. Crick said. "You have to think what you want people to know about you and not know about you."

These days, people are seeing their privacy punctured in intimate ways as their personal, professional and online identities become transparent to one another. Twenty-somethings are going to search engines to check out people they meet at parties. Neighbors are profiling neighbors. Amateur genealogists are researching distant family members. Workers are screening co-workers.

In other words, it is becoming more difficult to keep one's past hidden, or even to reinvent oneself in the American tradition. "The net result is going to be a return to the village, where everyone knew everyone else," said David Brin, author of a book called "The Transparent Society" (Perseus, 1998). "The anonymity of urban life will be seen as a temporary and rather weird thing."

Some believe that this loss of anonymity could be dangerous for those who prefer to remain hidden, like victims of domestic violence.

"If you are living in a new town trying to be hidden, it's pretty easy to find you now between Google and online government records," said Cindy Southworth, who develops technology education programs for victims of domestic violence. "Many public entities are putting everything on the Web without thinking through the ramifications of those actions."

Of course, a lot of personal information that can be found on the Internet is already in the open, having been printed in newspapers, school newsletters, yearbooks and the like. In addition, the government records that are moving online — tax assessments, court documents, voter registration — are already public.

But much of that kind of information used to be protected by "practical obscurity": barriers arising from the time and inconvenience involved in collecting the information. Now those barriers are falling as old online-discussion postings, wedding registries and photos from school performances are becoming centralized in a searchable form on the Internet.

"Google and its siblings are creating a whole that is much greater than the sum of the parts," said Jonathan Zittrain, director of the Berkman Center for Internet and Society at Harvard Law School. "Many people assume they are a needle in a haystack, simply a face in the crowd. But the minute someone takes an interest in you, the search tool is what allows the rest of the crowd to dissolve."

As a result, people are considering how to live their lives knowing that the details might be captured by a big magnifying glass in the sky.

"Anonymity used to give us a cushion against small mistakes," Mr. Brin said. "Now we'll have to live our lives as if any one thing might appear on page 27 in two years' time."

Waqaas Fahmawi, 25, used to sign petitions freely when he was in college. "In the past you would physically sign a petition and could confidently know that it would disappear into oblivion," said Mr. Fahmawi, a Palestinian-American who works as an economist for the Commerce Department.

But after he discovered that his signatures from his college years had been archived on the Internet, he became reluctant to sign petitions for fear that potential employers would hold his political views again him.

He feels stifled in his political expression. "The fact I have to think about this," he said, "really does show we live in a system of thought control."

David Holtzman, editor in chief of GlobalPOV, a privacy Web site, said that the notion of privacy was "undergoing a generational shift." Those in their late 20's and 30's are going to feel the brunt of the transition, he said, because they grew up with more traditional concepts of privacy even as the details of their lives were being captured electronically.

"It almost gives you a good reason to name your kid something bland," Mr. Holtzman said. "You are doing them a good favor by doing that."

Indeed, a generic name is what Beth Roberts, 29, was seeking when she changed back from her married name, Werbick, after a divorce. A Google search on "Beth Werbick" returns results only about her. But a search for "Beth Roberts" returns thousands upon thousands of Web pages. "I would have plausible deniability if someone wanted to attribute something to me," said Ms. Roberts, who lives in Austin, Tex.

Mr. Fahmawi, the economist, said he envied the ability to be a name in the crowd. "If I had a more generic name, I'd sign petitions with impunity," he said.

But those who have become more conscious of their Internet presence can find that it is almost impossible to assert control over the medium — something that copyright holders discovered long ago.

The debate over privacy is particularly fervent in the field of online genealogy, where databases and family trees are copied freely, with or without the consent of the living individuals.

Jerome Smith, who runs a genealogical Web site, recently removed some names at the request of a man who did not want his children's information on the Web. But Mr. Smith noted the information itself had been copied from a larger public database. "Once you put it out there, it's out there," said Mr. Smith, who lives in Lake Junaluska, N.C.

Google says its search engine reflects whatever is on the Internet. To remove information about themselves, people have to contact Web site administrators.

A disadvantage of instant Internet profiling is that there is no quality control — and little protection against misinterpretation. The fragments of people's lives that emerge on the Internet are somewhat haphazard. They can be incomplete, out of context, misleading or simply wrong.

John Doffing, the chief executive of an Internet talent agency called StartUpAgent, is surprised by how many job applicants ask him what it is like to be a gay chief executive in Silicon Valley. He says that even though he is heterosexual, some people assume he is gay because his name turns up on the Internet in association with his philanthropic work relating to AIDS and an online gallery devoted to gay and lesbian art.

While this has been more amusing than troubling, he says, such information could be misused. "What happens if I were a job seeker and someone decides not to give me a job because of the same assumption?" he asked.

There are also cases of mistaken Google-identity. Sam Waltz Jr., a business consultant in Wilmington, Del., met a woman through an online dating service. Before they met in person, she sent him an e-mail message saying that she did not think they were compatible. She had found his name on a Web site called SincereLust.com, which appeared to her to be run by a Delaware-based transvestite group.

"I'm sitting here, reading her e-mail and thinking, `What is this?' " Mr. Waltz said.

He discovered that the site was a drama group dedicated to "The Rocky Horror Picture Show." His son, Sam Waltz III, had been a member while he was at the University of Delaware.

Mr. Waltz quickly explained the situation to the woman, and they have been dating for 18 months. "Now I periodically do a self-Google to make sure there is nothing else that needs to be challenged or checked," Mr. Waltz said.

Some say that the phenomenon of instant unchecked background searches could be manipulated to sabotage others' reputations.

Jeanne Achille, the chief executive of a public relations firm called the Devon Group, was horrified that someone had used her name and e-mail address to post racist slurs in a French online discussion group. She has repeatedly had to explain the situation to potential clients who have asked her about the posting.

"Whoever did this had to put some thought into it," Ms. Achille said. "Is it perhaps one of our competitors? Is it someone who felt we did something to them and wanted to get back at us? Is it a personal thing? Is it a disgruntled former employee?"

The posting has been impossible to remove. "There is no cyberpatrol that you can go to and make all of this go away," Ms. Achille said. "You just have to live with it."
 
  
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