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Indie Guilt

 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:09 / 31.05.02
I don't entirely agree with the sentiments below, both culled from people I know from other music message boards, but they bring up an interesting topic based on a very real trends...

This guy starts this topic on I Love Music:

Hi, I occasionally post on ILM but there is one thing that I don't understand that occurs rather frequently.

Why are so many of the ILM cadre of ex-indie rockers ashamed of indie? (that's USA indie, not the UK "Boy Bands w/ Guitars"/Britpop indie)

Yes, y'all wearing your indie clothes, checking out indie girls/boys, closet listening to indie allthewhile suspectly buying other genres to boost your ILM cred... you are among the first to bash "Indie: The Genre"?

[wigga]Why ya frontin', y0?[/wigga]

Peer pressure? Diseased with musical fashion? is this a po-mo "ironic" move like the fleeting destiny's child/missy elliot affection of last year?


and this person clarifies that position a bit in this blog entry:

Gygax! mentioned something about an indie-rock backlash and I think that's interesting. It seems that people want to be anti-political at the moment and that might be why some people think of "indie" as a quaint '90s moment because you have to believe in the idea of DIY if you buy into the indie thing and it seems some people want to be complacent or just want to give up and give in to some false idea of populism. Yeah you claim you like shitty pop music because it's fun but kitsch sux and you know it. That shit sux major ding dongs. I think it falls into the whole anti-intellectualism scheme and the basic anti-rock scheme and the desire to find some so-called authenticity. It's like "keeping it real" or something but it just comes off as patronizing.


Now, I must say that I strongly disgree with this hyper-indie/anti-pop stance, but it is very interesting. Is the current trend for former indie-rock fans embracing pop and hip hop a case of faux-populism and anti-intellectualism for some people, or are these people who are complaining about (gasp!) people liking a variety of music just insufferable indie snob lifers? What do you think?
 
 
rizla mission
11:31 / 02.06.02
Well I'm certainly not embarrassed by my ultra-indie tendencies (lets face it, there'd be few options bar suicide if I was).

I can certainly see why a lot of former indie fans would turn entirely to other genres though - looking at all the boring shite guitar bands covered by the likes of Q and NME these days, it's understandable that people of taste & intelligence are going to think "fuck this shit! I'm going to listen to freaky disco songs about sex!"

And quite right too, except I imagine these people might have a slightly different perspective if they'd been exposed to the million and one brilliant, cool, ass-kicking guitar bands who don't get hyped much in the mainstream press anymore..

..and what's wrong with liking both of these things anyway? why have we (I?) just created a scary pop/indie dichotomy? are these things so inherently different? Atari Teenage Riot are my conception of the perfect pop group..
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:09 / 02.06.02
Yeah, I really don't understand why it's not okay to just like a lot of different things. Having eclectic tastes does not automatically mean having shallow interests, thought it enough does work out that way for a lot of people. I think Mr. Gygax assumes the worst of people more often than not, and that his elitism often does get the best of him. I can understand why he feels the way he does, but I can't take his opinion entirely seriously - he just seems very bitter to me.

As I said before, given the strong conservative tendencies in both popular and indie rock music for the past several years, I think it's perfectly reasonable for a lot of people who grew up on indie/altrock to grow jaded and bored with it and seek out novelty whereever they can find it.
 
 
Rage
21:29 / 02.06.02
It's trivia time!

Did you know that The Pretensions is an actual indie rock band?

And BTW, what the fuck is up with this whole indie thing in the first place? I never understood it. I listen to what I think sounds good. I can understand genre surfing, but how can indie even be a genre? At least pop and hip hip are specific types of music. (somewhat) Indie is just a label for bands that aren't signed to Interscope or whatever.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:40 / 02.06.02
It's really nebulous, but there is an indie aesthetic, especially for bands from the early to mid 90s... it does mean something in America to say "wow, yr band sounds so indie". It's sort of hard to explain, but some bands who are good reference points for what that sound is like would be most anything on Matador, K, Kill Rock Stars, Merge, Touch And Go, and Drag City in the mid-90s.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:45 / 02.06.02
Well, yes and no, Rage. In terms of which label someone's signed to, indie stopped being a relevant term a million years ago (if it ever was). It's simply another broad generalisation, cooked up by a lazy press for the benefit of an equally lazy audience.

You've hit the nail on the head here, Flux:

given the strong conservative tendencies in both popular and indie rock music for the past several years

, although I'm not certain that the term 'novelty' is accurate. Excitement and invention, yes, but 'novelty' makes it sound as if the straying of the flock that these two have apparently witnessed is down to some attempt to strike a pose. Far more likely that what's actually happened is most other people's tastes have matured and broadened naturally, while Gygax and Tallyhosulky are sat in their mum and dad's bathroom masturbating over Codeine album covers.

It says a lot that one of them seems to think that UK indie is currently also known as Britpop. Good to see he's up to date there, too.

hip hip

hooray!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
23:14 / 02.06.02
Well, novelty isn't always a bad thing. In context, one of the things Gygax is worked up about is a lot of people's new interest in pop (and the bootleg phenemonen), which I think does involve a bit of novelty.

Novelty can also just mean 'something new', and I think that's more often the case for say, folks like the Neptunes or Missy/Timbaland.

The increasing popularity of 'outsider' music (think: The Shaggs, Langley Schools Project, Songs in the Key of Z, Gary Wilson) is also a part of this trend, but maybe in a less obvious and more indie-purist-acceptable sort of way.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:36 / 04.06.02
For what it's worth, Gygax has responded to this thread in his blog, linked in the first post. Well, it's not so much a response to any of the ideas in this thread as it is a defensive ad hominem personal attack against me, but you all should still read it in the interest of equal time, I suppose.
 
 
bio k9
08:27 / 05.06.02
Its not worth much, really.

I think its kind of wierd that people read each others blogs so they can get involved in some sort of cyberpissing match. And why did he fell it was necessary to give out your real last name? I know you've given it out before but still...its just shady.

I'm curious, is Gygax his real name or did he name himself after the guy who created dungeons and dragons? And if I call him a "dirty rotten, bum sniffing, indy bitch" will he mention me in that fabulous blog of his?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:14 / 05.06.02
He's deleted it, by the way. Thank god.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:41 / 05.06.02
It's really nebulous, but there is an indie aesthetic, especially for bands from the early to mid 90s...

Give all songs enigmatic titles unrelated to their lyrical content.

If your song has a verse-chorus form, keep it short--under four minutes. If it's more-or-less free-form, all bets are off.

If you must use the standard EADGBE guitar tuning, for God's sake don't tune too precisely. That way lies Van Halen-esque muso wankery.

Avoid anything that smacks of "professionalism" or "effort"--like singing on key ("key" is a bourgeois notion), or enunciating, or hitting the drums hard, or keeping your timing together ("tightness" is revered by soulless studio hacks, and is therefore to be avoided).

When producing, always mix the drums and vocals low: emphasize the midrange--not too much punch in the low end, not too much shimmer in the high.

If, God forbid, you should happen to write a hooky pop-style song, cover your tracks when recording it: detune the guitars and add plenty of tape hiss.

I could go on and on. I won't. It's too fucking depressing. Honestly. I mean, "I Am A Scientist" is such a beautiful, well-crafted song--why nudge it away from the brink of pop perfection with that gawdawful untuned twelve-string?

If you're making work of which you are proud, don't you want to present it in its best light? If you're writing good songs, why wouldn't you want them to sound good?

So many "indie" songs sound to me like songwriter's demos, just waiting to be covered (and turned into monster hits) by bands unafraid of precision and high production values. They just sound incomplete to me, in a way that independent or foreign films (also fodder for remakes) don't.

Or put this way—Christopher Nolan remaking the movie INSOMNIA seems redundant to me, but some band remaking Spare Snare's "Wired For Sound" as a Big Rock Anthem makes perfect sense to me.

Maybe I'm weird.
 
 
grant
20:48 / 05.06.02
I dunno. I think part of the beauty is in the roughness. I also like woodcuts and raku pottery.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:42 / 05.06.02
Perhaps I've been brainwashed since I was 13 years old, and you can make a good case for it, but to my ears, most standard-tuned guitars recorded clearly and/or with a lot of studio gloss more often than not sounds ugly to my ears. Either that, or drab and lacking in color. It's no hard and fast rule, but I certainly find a lot of the indie aesthetic to just *sound* better, and there's not a lot of anti-professionalism dogma in why I feel that way. I think that in the case of folks like Sonic Youth, the Flaming Lips (I'm mostly talking about pre-Zaireeka Lips, by the way), Pavement, and Guided By Voices there are a lot of complicated decisions about style and craft that are made for each individual song.

Mainly in reference to GBV, I think there's a lot to be said for avoiding perfectionist tendencies, to just recording the songs as they are being written and leaving them at that...there is a single version of "I Am A Scientist" which is more in tune, but I don't like it as much as the Bee Thousand version, mostly because the guitars don't sound quite as melancholy.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:42 / 06.06.02
Grant saith:
I think part of the beauty is in the roughness. I also like woodcuts and raku pottery.

See, roughness isn't the problem, for me: it's incompleteness. I guess I see a song as a functional object. To use your pottery analogy: a soup bowl with a rough, crackly glaze has charm and character—but a soup bowl with a big fucking hole in it (or a wet lump of clay that you're just calling a soup bowl) is in itself neither useful nor beautiful. It still needs some work. It's a demo being passed off as a complete work.

I guess what kills me is the implication of contempt that I get from many indie bands—contempt for the audience, contempt for craft, contempt for the music itself. I mean, if you've got so much ironic distance between yourself and your art, the why bother doing it at all? Don't do us any favors...

The Who played with a shambolic looseness—but they played as if their lives depended on it. On the other hand, I've never heard a Pavement song wherein the band didn't sound bored, or as if there were something else they'd much rather be doing.

For me, the First and Only Commandment of Rock is: Always Let Them See You Sweat.

That's why, of all indie bands, I most love and am most frustrated by Guided By Voices. Bob Pollard is engaged in his music in a way that few singers are: he honest-to-God loves rock'n'roll, and his love is contagious—but still feels a need to make the records sound cheap and tinny, for "aesthetic" reasons that seem to me misguided.

High production values are not an evil unto themselves, though many indie rockers seem to think they are. But good production never kept anyone from making a good record, any more than poor production ever prevented anyone from making a bad record.

Flux saith:
...most standard-tuned guitars recorded clearly and/or with a lot of studio gloss more often than not sounds ugly to my ears.

This statement sets you apart from the vast majority of music listeners: I say that without judgment, as a simple statement of fact: standards become standards for a reason, after all. Your rejection of those standards does set you outside of the pop mainstream. Dunno whether or not it makes you an "insufferable indie lifer." That depends on how your other point plays out...

...there are a lot of complicated decisions about style and craft that are made for each individual song.

Maybe so, maybe no. As the scene has grown, it seems to me that many of these "decisions" have become no decision at all—they've become codified into precisely the "anti-professionalist dogma" you mentioned. What started as a choice (or as a budgetary necessity) has become a credo: tune your guitar at the cost of your credibility. The record sounds "too slick"? Let the cries of "sellout" begin.

Where's the freedom in that? Shouldn't an artist be allowed to articulate hir art in a clear, accessible manner without risking the wrath of hir fans?
 
 
rizla mission
12:53 / 06.06.02
For the record, I almost always prefer the trashy, rough-cut, lo-fi sound to the big, slick one. I don't have any theories as to why (apart from terminal indie brainwashing), I just prefer things that way. When I picture the processes by which I imagine records I like are made, I prefer to think of a bunch of people banging it out with feeling and hitting the wrong notes than same bunch of people dicking around on pro-tools.

Of course, whether or not the song is any good outweighs any such aesthetic concerns.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:01 / 06.06.02
Of course, whether or not the song is any good outweighs any such aesthetic concerns.

As well it should.

To clarify my position on many choons, indie and otherwise: Love the song. Am hugely disappointed by the record.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:06 / 06.06.02
Jack, a lot of bands, Sonic Youth being the best example, are very keen on getting very specific sounds for each song. This involves a lot of experimentation with tuning, recording, arranging, etc, a great deal of trial and error and judgement to figure out what's best for each song. I think this is really important - I think it's good for musicians to work out ways to alter any part of an arrangement to best suit the song itself. I can't understand why more people don't do this.
This is an entirely different thing from being sloppy and careless, though I don't think those are always awful things.

Also, Pollard doesn't have any problem with embracing big studio aesthetics - it was mostly his decision to do just that on Do The Collapse and Isolation Drills.

I wouldn't worry too much about this stuff Jack - lofi has gone pretty far out of fashion for the most part, most of the new generation is embracing computers and pro-tools.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:07 / 06.06.02
Hey Jack, I'm just curious - could you mention some records that you think are examples of well-recorded music?
 
 
Jack Fear
13:44 / 06.06.02
Christ, Flux, why don't I just list my record collection?

There's two camps, really...

For rock'n'roll, folk, and jazz, I gravitate towards a live-in-the-studio sound, where the editing is more-or-less transparent (unlike dance/electronica, where the jarring shift of textures is kind of the point)—where the producer just gets out of the way and lets the band do its thing. Examples (just looking at the box of CDs on my desk right now):

Tony Cohen's work with Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds.
Richard Thompson's last few records, esp. MOCK TUDOR.
The MacGowan-era Pogues (whether produced by Elvis Costello, Steve Lillywhite, or Joe Strummer).
Les Negresses Vertes.
Jane Siberry's MARIA and the live album CHILD.
Teo Macero's Miles Davis records.
T Bone Burnett.
Kevin Killen.
Tim Palmer.

In all these cases, I think the sound has less to do with the recording per se than with the tightness of the band and interestingly-textured arrangements played live.

Some records are a little more tweaky-freaky, and build up their arrangements through overdubs and studio work—where it's one guy playing all the instruments... Mick Harvey's albums of Gainsbourg covers, where he expertly apes a variety of 60s pop styles, spring to mind.

Or Richard Thompson again, esp. the knob-happy MIRROR BLUE disc.
Mitchell Froom generally, in fact.
Chris Whitley, esp. TERRA INCOGNITA and ROCKET HOUSE.
Daniel Lanois, either solo or as a producer-for-hire.
Hector Zazou's reinventions of indigenous musics.
Brian Eno.
Hal Willner.

I agree that overproduction can kill a song: usually it does so by dating it. That is: stops-out state-of-the-art production from 1993 only sounds state-of-the-art until the state of the art moves on... and it's always moving on. Production that holds up is "timeless"—perhaps very simple and restrained, perhaps elaborate, but in any case unrelated to any particular trend or movement.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:46 / 06.06.02
And in some cases, I'd classify the "indie aesthetic" as a trend or a movement—and as a poor vehicle for showcasing the songs.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:50 / 06.06.02
So, as it turns out, we ultimately have the same ideal preferences for sound recordings. Nice. I don't have the same hang-ups about low-fi recordings, but I honestly would prefer a lot of songs I like (hello, Bee Thousand!) to sound better.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:54 / 06.06.02
It's not a hang-up with low-fi recording per se—more with the studied laziness and detachment of the performances. That whole too-cool-to-care thing. "See, we're so casual about music that we don't even bother to tune up, and barely bother to show up."
 
 
Saveloy
15:07 / 06.06.02
Jack, can you give us some specific examples of that sort of thing? Otherwise it comes across as a lazy person's view of a scene they've not really looked at in any real detail.

For my tuppeny bit, I'd like to go back to this, as said by Jack:

"As the scene has grown, it seems to me that many of these "decisions" have become no decision at all; they've become codified into precisely the "anti-professionalist dogma" you mentioned. What started as a choice (or as a budgetary necessity) has become a credo: tune your guitar at the cost of your credibility. The record sounds "too slick"? Let the cries of "sellout" begin."

I think this always happens to anything that opens itself up to attack for being unusual. You create something, you get criticised, you defend your choice on aesthetic grounds, the criticism continues (because it's easy and fun, and no one really believes that anyone elses taste can be that different without also being 'evil' in some way), you feel the need to 'butch up' your defense (because, while the "it's a matter of taste" defense is true and right, it always sounds a bit weedy) with some sort of theory or principle. This almost always involves the creation of sides and by that stage you're all set up for a lovely war. All entirely unneccessary but probably inevitable.

So I'm tempted to say it's all the fault of people like yourself, Jack, who won't leave well alone (heh heh heh), but then I don't think you even need critics to get to the credo stage, just a suspicion in the mind of the creator that they're doing something that others will want to stamp on. I think a lot of arguments in music and art in general can be put down to suspicion and paranoia ("he think's he's it", "they can't really like that, can they? Must be doing it for some smart-arse reason...")
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
16:32 / 13.08.02
"...suspectly buying other genres to boost your ILM cred... frontin'... Peer pressure? Diseased with musical fashion? is this a po-mo "ironic" move like the fleeting destiny's child/missy elliot affection of last year?..."

"It seems that people want to be anti-political at the moment and that might be why some people think of "indie" as a quaint '90s moment because you have to believe in the idea of DIY if you buy into the indie thing and it seems some people want to be complacent or just want to give up and give in to some false idea of populism. Yeah you claim you like shitty pop music because it's fun but kitsch sux and you know it."


I kept meaning to reply to this thread and point out the similarity between the "you only say you like pop to be trendy" argument and the classic "you're only left-wing/pro-queer/feminist/concerned about race relations to be trendy and PC" argument. Which I guess I just did. Sure, nobody could *really* like insanely catchy and technically innovative music made by black women for a mass audience! They're only doing it cos it's *cool*!

I also find it really amusing the way the guy talks about liking anything other than indie rock as being part of an "anti-political" trend - and the fact that he goes on to talk about populism as a bad thing with little irony or awareness of the politics involved is the icing on the cake.

Oh, and wtf was that about people's affection for Missy & Destiny's Child being "fleeting"? Still seems to be going strong, doesn't it?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
21:30 / 14.08.02
Come on, surely someone here must disagree with me.
 
  
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