Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.

Underground > Switchboard >

two big questions

Page: 1(2)

15:37 / 13.10.01

I think that this concept that islamic culture is somehow dead, over, medieval etc. is, erm, dumb.

Such a question can only be answered when we see an islamic state that has a fighting chance to make a good life for its people without getting fucked up in a war every few years. I'd agree that Iran is one of the countries that has a half-decent chance of this. But Flux, your argument that islamic cultures are not progressing doesn't wash with me- I don't think they've been given the chance to progress.

17:25 / 13.10.01

Is it not the case that the whole concept of modernity is itself a western development, and to ask (or expect) developing nations to modernizeamounts to the same thing as asking them to westernize? Surely to modernize means to develop the liberal humanist institutions that have come to dominate the western world - i.e. the "modern" world. If there was to be the development of such institutions in the developing world, without recourse to the cultural model provided by the West (i.e. capitalistic/homogenous/humanist/pro-gender equality), we would wait centuries before any real fruit was borne.

And we'll all be fucked by then.

Frances Farmer

19:10 / 13.10.01

Althusser,

I'm not so sure that's necessarily the case.

For example, bin Laden himself, in a link provided by Betty Woo, voices some interesting thoughts during an interview with a Pakistani news channel.

Bin Laden wants the Islamic world to develop, independently, the products and media power that exist in the West. He seems to believe that by doing this, Islam can be given a voice in the world community, and receive more serious consideration and support. Essentially, if I understand correctly, he wants modernization insofar as necessary products can be produced from within Islamic countries, without relying on imports from the U.S., et al.

To give context, he suggested these steps be taken when he was asked "Why don't you boycott or take other economic/social/political action against the 'West'?".

His answer was that, essentially, until Islamic countries see some modernization, they won't have the power to take these steps.

I guess he feels he needs to fight, tooth and nail, to get that done by fair means.

Though I might point out - again - that he has got a lot of money, and could be contributing to this cause in a number of ways besides those in the stated goals of Al-Qu'aida.

14:03 / 14.10.01

Frances

fair points; but where is the capital to come from, in the drive to give the muslim world technological and media parity with the west? capitalism, the one enduring legacy of our own modernization project...

unless bin laden knows a secret formula for some other economic mode that we've never heard of (maybe he found it scrawled on the wall of his cave.....)

16:53 / 14.10.01

There is no shortage of capital in the world. We have enough to buy fuck-off big aeroplanes to bomb patches of desert, an to fly ten of thousands of people around the world for holidays, or to buy loads of crap to keep in our houses so there is no room for our friends and relatives but thats okay coz they can buy their own houses.

One of the things I respect about arabic culture is its respect for the prohibition on usary in the bible.

This totally changes the relationship of the individual with capital buy diverting it away from projects that are purely for financial gain and towards social or political or personal satisfaction.

As for parity with the west, their are aspects of Islamic society other than the one quoted above, that are way in advance of ours, including genuine social cohesion, and effective anti racism.

The west is not de facto superior, or more advanced. The west is a fucked up hypocritical mess, just like all the human race.

Frances Farmer

17:48 / 14.10.01

quote:Originally posted by althusser:
Frances

fair points; but where is the capital to come from, in the drive to give the muslim world technological and media parity with the west? capitalism, the one enduring legacy of our own modernization project...

unless bin laden knows a secret formula for some other economic mode that we've never heard of (maybe he found it scrawled on the wall of his cave.....)

Althusser,

A similar economic situation to what you see here is prevalent in many Central Asian and Middle-Eastern countries: The wealth often stops and starts it's movement with a smaller body; for the larger body, it's transient, unpredictable. For the smaller body, it's just economics.

The rich get richer while and poor get poorer, and all that.

...I take issue with the "...wall of his cave." comment. Osama bin Laden was born wealthy, in Saudi Arabia. Nothing wrong with Saudi Arabia, nothing wrong with the rich family he came from.

Apparently, something is very wrong with him.

Anyways; The cave comment comes across'd as derogatory. Therefore, superfluous, and rhetorical. You make it sound as if there aren't educated folks in that part of the world. Granted, there are fewer educational opportunities, though.

Pardon me if I've misunderstood you.

Bottom line: There is money. Somewhere.

Other bottom line: If you read that interview, you'll also notice he's very much toting his own propaganda line and that he reeks of anti-semitism.

Either way, though, I think that particular point is an excellent one. The Islamic world needs an established way to connect with "the West". A unique way. A non-homogonized way, so that they can protect their way of life. They need the right to represent themselves, and that right is bought with economic power.

Page: 1(2)