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Book Personals: Ulysses - are we still going?

 
 
Ariadne
20:49 / 25.05.02
Right. I think it's time to resurrect this book personal thingie before it dies altogether. I know the plan was to go by chapter but I'll just try reviving interest and see what happens.

I know that Rothkoid and I are at about the same chapter of Ulysses, and I gather that Stoatie is still reading. Persephone, are you out there? Anyone else?

My part in the silence has been because I've been trying very, very hard to think of intelligent, enlightening, inspiring comment on the book and, for the most part, failing completely.

But then I read chapter 14 (I think), the Oxen of the Sun. And the analysis at the back of my book said, among other things, that "the question that has exercised readers is whether drunkenness can be satisfactorily rendered by a tipsy technique. Many find the final section so convoluted that they can deduce little or nothing from it."

Well. I loved it. This was one of the first parts of the book that's made me think, fucking hell, this really is an amazing book.

Don't tell bitchiekittie but I really loved and identified with the end of that chapter - it was, well, I've been there. A lot. That drunken environment with everyone talking at cross purposes is so recognisable and creates such an 'at home' feeling that I couldn't believe it. It's so precise it's scary.

Did anyone else see that in it? Or was it so convoluted you could deduce nothing from it?

And I love Bloom more and more as we go along.

And how are we all doing with reading the book? I'm half way through the 'dream play' chapter, which I think is 15, Circe, the brothel, and I'm enjoying it too.

I'd love the Joyce fans (sorry, I can't remember names right now) to come back to us? What should we be looking for?
 
 
Trijhaos
21:46 / 25.05.02
I'm still reading, but I have no idea what chapter I'm on or anything of the sort. The chapter I'm on starts out, "I was just passing the time of day with Old Troy...". I think it's somewhere between 9 and 14.

I really have very few intelligent comments about the book, thus my silence on the matter.

All I really know is if I can finish reading this book, I can read anything.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
05:34 / 26.05.02
i'm glad you resurrected this ariadne! i was hoping someone would. i'm really glad you had that reaction to the chapter... this is part of the point i've tried to make about the book in other theads. yes, he creates a whole new language, redefines literature and the novel, references everything ever written and combines theology and philosohphy and aesthetics into each sentence -- BUT at its core it's about physical human things, like getting stinking drunk in a pub admidst a warm and crowded conversation. and it's about these things so well it seems real -- "scary" as you say. he evokes real time, accurate feelings so well, purely through language, while still making complicated points about human consciousness. you don't need the concordance and the history of dublin to feel the things he evokes here.

this is why i think the book is perfect, and why no one else has been able to do anything quite like it -- nabokov, for example, misses out on the incredibly base, human physicality, the dampness and warmth and stink that pours out of the words, and other books that dwell in physicality miss out on the elevated thought that backs this thing up.

this physicallity goes a long way towards the creation within the book of the mini-universe i mentioned in the first thread (chapters 1-3). anyone who's looking for things to say but hasn't figured out WHAT to say -- how about you take me up on some of the theories i constructed in that thread, see if you can back them up or knock them down. they are theories about the book that i'd go so far as to call "barbelithic", in that i make reference to the book as a mystical text and as a living artificial sub universe.

i suggested previously that as the book progresses you can perceive the text waking up, becoming self aware, playing with its own consciousness. by the time we get to chapter 15, the text itself has fully asserted control, like an artificial intelligence realizing that it has power over the system. this is (in part) why suddenly metaphor becomes reality; allusions and trope that were previously confined to language only in this chapter become "Real." real in the sense that they are real for the characters and the text -- it is, in a sense "Lying" to us, because there aren't actually monsters, yet on the other hand if it says so, there they are. no accident the chapter is called Circe, the sorceress -- the text is conjuring magical creatures into the realm of the book.

anyway, if anyone else wants to play this game with me, i'd love to see if other people have thoughts about the book as a living system, as a subuniverse, etc; and i'd love to see if anyone is noticing the book becoming self aware. i think somewhere around chapter 7 you can notice that the language starts to get particularly self-referential, starts to play and purposefully confuse us. this is it waking up, or if you prefer, realizing that it's dreaming. now we're in the lucid dream, chapter 15.

i can back this up with some examples, and i'll pop back in to do so in a bit, but i'm feeling perhaps 1st time readers need something to look for to spur the imagination... hopefully you can find these comments interesting and try to run with them.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
05:36 / 26.05.02
and by the way, cheers to everyone who is still reading this thing. some day i'll buy you all pints of seriously dark irish stout and glasses of venemous irish whiskey to celebrate.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
11:23 / 26.05.02
I'm still reading; are we going to do the chapter-by-chapter bits, or all just glom on now? Unfortunately, I've been unable to contribute in a big way - especially with my current work worries; I'm really concerned about other stuff at the moment.

Sorry.

Will try to join in more, honest. Hell, I may have a lot of free time on my hands, soon...
 
 
Mystery Gypt
12:46 / 26.05.02
we could just renamed this thread to include the chapters we ought to be on... but then on second thought, it's true that we haven't had the massive annotating frenzy i expected, perhaps we should just merge all the threads and have one big happy ulysses family?
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
19:26 / 26.05.02
To go back to the mini-universe thing, Finnegans Wake is really a lot like that. The text is so insanely obscure that finally it makes sense only in reference to itself... sorry, have I upset the thread now?

I think it's important for an interiorly narrated book to give the sense of mini-universe - because that's what real people experience. But actually I think Joyce didn't want to create a secondary world - he wanted to invoke the real world more.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
14:34 / 28.05.02
Of all the chapters in Ulysses - which I finished yesterday - I think I have to say that I like the second-last one best: Ithaca. The format was great - it's like a nice tidying-up section before the final unstructured sleepy ramble of Molly Bloom. I thought the question-and-answer structure was fantastic inasmuch as it's the perfect way to almost-end a self-referential book - everything's broken down into a matter of movements, measures and basic descriptions, which is what I think the whole work is trying to describe - even the most massive things in life are able to be described in simple, basic terms. Life is about the details; grand journeys are described within the actions of the everyday, and this science-ifyin' of the everyday seemed to add a feeling of canonicity, of importance that I felt was crucial.

More coming, maybe... can't quite think.

On the whole, I think Ulysses is great, though could've done with some stringent editing. While that's anathema to Joyceans everywhere, there are parts that scream on a little too long. True, the nighttown section is one of the most brilliant in the book - and also the one where the thin line between reality and drunken dreaming is blurred to oft-devastating effect - but it's also one of the chapters that has me "for fuck's sake"ing before it's over. Although not quite as much as the Oxen Of The Sun chapter... grr.

In the end, I like Ulysses; though reading it can often try my patience. I like that it's patchy - though dislike some of the lengths - and like the fact that though it's voluminous and very described, we never (I feel) really get a definitive statement on the characters, whether they're good or bad, as most novels will convey. We're shown people in a small snatch of their life: and that's good enough.

Christ. I should use "we" less. I sound like that economics teacher in Ferris Bueller's Day Off.
 
 
Ariadne
15:35 / 28.05.02
I'm starting to really like it too.

I'm half way through the Ithaca chapter, and apparently it's meant to mimic the catechism (sp?) question and answer format. I'm enjoying it, especially as it goes off on great rambles about where the water is coming from as Bloom fills the kettle.

I like the idea that each successive chapter, with its different style, is a spit in the eye of standard writing and novel structures. Sometimes it's annoying and, as Rothkoid says, can go on a. bit. too. long. But over all it's very clever and I'm already thinking, hmm, maybe if I go back to the beginning and read it all again, I'll see more....

I may need a bit of a rest first, though.
 
 
Ariadne
15:41 / 28.05.02
(Off topic - does anyone know if Persephone's okay? She's been very quiet.)
 
 
Persephone
02:08 / 29.05.02
Hullo, here I am & feeling a little envious like I'm at an old-fashioned revival meetin' & everybody's gettin' the Holy Spirit except me. So I am going off to bed to try the good book some more.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:27 / 29.05.02
I'm nearly done - in the final chapter - and now feeling a great deal of affection for this ridiculously overegged book. Sadly currently pushed for time - will post further thoughts when have greater leisure...
 
 
Persephone
19:03 / 04.06.02
I liked the Ithaca chapter as well, which I finished last night. I also liked the one before, and checking back in our notes & queries thread I see that this is the "dare to be boring" chapter... hmmmm. But I did like it. It reminded me of chapter 2, I think, the Nestor chapter, except that you get the sense that this is a benevolent (vs. malevolent Mr. Deasy) garrolous old man. And it also reminded me of the butler from Remains of the Day. It was digressive in the way that my mind is digressive... rambly, not flash-flash-flash if you know what I mean. I guess I have the mind of a garrulous old man. The more broken up bits of the book --the flash-flash-flash bits-- were foreign and more than a little unpleasant to me. In fact I skipped a few chapters back because I just couldn't face them; they were actually freaking me out a little. Now I have a choice of going back or delving into Molly's monologue. Lord, not a bit of punctuation is there?
 
 
Ariadne
11:36 / 05.06.02
I enjoyed Molly's monologue. If you take it slowly and follow her, she has a very believable voice and character. It does get frustrating when you're trying to find a natural break to put the book down, mind you.

I'm trying to formulate an overall opinion but my brain still shies away from looking at the book as a whole. I found parts wonderful and parts bewildering. I'm not convinced, yet, that it's the greatest novel ever written (or whatever it's claimed to be).

I can't really see the whole text-becoming-self-aware argument, Mystery Gypt, that just seems a bit silly to me. But then I'm a grumbly old, rational-minded reader. Go on, convince me!
 
 
Trijhaos
20:40 / 05.06.02
Finished, by god.

Why, exactly, is this book considered so good?

I thought the way the style and structure of the text changed from chapter to chapter, heck even in the middle of a chapter, was interesting. The plot, on the other hand, was nothing to get excited about. At times it was downright boring. I suppose that could be because the work is nothing more than a vehicle that allows Joyce to showcase all these different styles of writing, but still, an interesting plot would have made this book a lot more enjoyable.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
02:15 / 06.06.02
what, trijhaos, you wanted a fucking car chase?

i don't really feel up to convincing anyone anything about this book beyond my endless previous exhortations... i think it's weird how really no one seems to have had the kind of mind-breaking experience with it i did. i mean, i know i'm not the only one on earth who thinks its not only great, but also a fairly psychedelic experience... is there anyone, other than myself, who feels up to saying anything big and broad and crazy about this book? i'm feeling a bit lonely in my joyce fanclub right now.
 
 
Persephone
03:29 / 06.06.02
I feel like we're letting you down, Myst... do you mind if I ask you, did you like this book right off the bat? I mean, did you pick it up & get sucked right in?

I had a very pleasing experience with the book right at the end, when I was very slowly reading Molly's monologue... I realized that this was Molly up and about the next morning, and that Bloom was so wiped out from his day that he'd asked for breakfast to be brought to him in bed, which brought us right back to where we'd met him bringing breakfast to Molly in bed. That went *click* in my head in the most satisfying way. And I really felt so happy... because he got breakfast in bed for a change (and he drank all the cream too), because you knew that meant he had gone a long, long way, because he was back home, because he got to rest.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
04:09 / 06.06.02
sorry to sound grumpy about it persephone... don't mean to be grumbling in the corner, here.

i did like it right off the bat, but i took it in bits. after reading portrait and dubliners in high school, i read the 4th chapter.. with the cat and the breakfast... and i was really intrigued. i read about the book at that time, tried to emulate a kind of writing that in my mind had something to do with this book, and tinkered around with some of the other chapters here and there. i was especially confounded and intrigued by the penultimate one, as it sounds like a bunch of people here were. by this point, the book seemed to me to hold a lot of magical secrets -- the same way that the invisibles does for some people -- but i still hadn't read most of it. its difficulty didn't turn me away from it; instead it seemed like part of the allure, like it was something i would have to slowly understand, to prepare for, to learn like a language. so i poked around at it for years to come, and then one day i finally took a uni class that gave me the chance to study it intensively... i've reread bits and pieces from it a lot, and i still "use" it somehow in my work.

the short answer, i guess, was obsessive love at first site followed by a long seduction. i am ulysses's bitch.

oh, and yr comment about the end is cool. it is totally a homecoming, there is something really sweet and happy about this last chapter. it is far far away from a perfect happy ending -- whereas odysseus returns home triumphantly, slays the suitors powerfully, brings home his son and gets it on with his alarmingly faithful wife, leo sleeps off a hangover, has a weird time with his non-son, and ignores his totally faithless wife who just moments ago was cheating on him and with whom he no longer can have sex. but STILL, you feel this true love happening between them, the kind that ONLY seems to happen in real life rather than in stories... because writers usually wrap things up with release of emotion and sentiment, they don't allow this kind of awkward half-step that is also fulfilling and resonant. joyce's made-up form of "mock-epic" allows him to give us total imperfection and still have us think about it just as you say -- that he was a long, long way from home and got to rest, and it is all alright.
 
 
Ariadne
08:11 / 06.06.02
Sorry, Mystery Gypt - I know how frustrating it can be when you love something and other people just don't 'get' it.

I do like the book, I really loved some of it, and I'm thinking of rereading it soon to try to get a better grip on it. Any other resources you know of, good analysis I should read?

Plus it's been responsible for my latest romance, so thank you Mr Joyce!
 
 
Ariadne
08:12 / 06.06.02
And I meant to say that I totally agree about the realism of the last chapter and the acceptance of love and relationships as imperfect and flawed. Mmm, just thinking about this makes me want to go back to it.
 
 
Trijhaos
11:05 / 06.06.02
what, trijhaos, you wanted a fucking car chase?

Sure, and while we're at it about about a big gun battle with lots of Jackie Chan style Kung-fu. Oh, and Stephen needs to blow up the tower while Mulligan is still in it. There. Now all the americans get their action style thriller. You've got explosions, guns, and a car chase. Throw in some blatant sex scenes and you've got it made.

I'm sorry I don't feel that this book is so some of masterpiece that needs to be worshipped.

Everybody's got there own opinion about the book. At least I can say I've read it instead of "Ulysses What?" and "Joyce Who?"
 
 
Loomis
12:43 / 06.06.02
I find Ulysses rather contradictory, in that on one hand it's the kind of book that demands to be re-read, because as you become more familiar with it, you understand more of its references, and the cohesion and thus pleasure is greater, but on the other hand because of its difficulty, you only want one read to experience it, and to fill your head with the richness of its ideas, and then you can go off on your own and develop them in other ways. I suppose Ulysses goes in the "ambitious but flawed" category, which are the kind of things I love to experience, if only for the inspiration and the excitement of the moment (kind of like really intense music), but not exactly the thing for recurring experience, for me anyway. I love experimental music, but only listen to it every now and then, whether from mental laziness or something else I don't know. Mind you, some of my favourite writing is "difficult", like Pound and Faulkner, so ... like I said, I have contradictory feelings about this sort of thing. I often wonder why I like other modernist works more than Ulysses when so many other people put it at the top of their list. Maybe it's the length. Difficult poetry is not such a problem because you can dip in and out, and Faulkner's novels are pretty short. Perhaps a 4-500 page Ulysses would be better, but it's not good policy to second guess works of art. Unless you want to talk Star Wars...

I've read it twice (partly because I felt I should), though not for a couple of years, and I'm not sure that the second time was better, though I suppose it was easier, since I didn't have to think as hard about what was going on, although I don't tend to worry too much about that in the first place. I quite enjoy fucked-up modernist stuff and am happy to plow in and enjoy the experience even if I am missing half the plot. As long as the language is keeping me interested, the plot doesn't bother me at all. In fact I'd go as far as to say I'm anti-plot. Which is whay I like Joyce in general. His language, and his rendering of each intense moment (particularly in Portrait which is one of my top few favourite books) is superb. Molly's monologue- what can I say but yes yes yes!
 
 
Persephone
00:38 / 10.06.02
I am putting this down for now, but I will be back to it again.

I'm not sure that this book is flawed. I mean, Moulin Rouge is flawed; this seems something else. I think it's fair to say that it's not optimized for human reading, except perhaps for a few supercomputer-type brains. But I have the eerie feeling that all the hundreds of millions of bits that make up this book are all in place. Which is weird and mind-boggling to think about, when you think that this was written by a person and not some A.I.

Plus it's been responsible for my latest romance, so thank you Mr Joyce!

O!
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:41 / 10.06.02
There's a story there, Ariadne... presumably not relating that closely to your enjoyment of the depictions of the 'drunken end of the night' thing?

I am reading but rather in the posish of Rothkoid earlier on, little time, money and inclination to be on the 'net. But you're preaching to the converted with me, so I'll just say to pesevere, cause it
really is worth it....

Will be back with sutff to say, honestly.
 
 
Ariadne
20:16 / 10.06.02
Er, well the drunken end of the night did have a fair bit to do with it, yes! Then reading Ulysses on the tube late at night, and getting talking about it...
 
 
Mystery Gypt
22:20 / 10.06.02
the Joycean singles club! excellent.
 
 
Ariadne
13:46 / 11.06.02
This is quite silly (and comes courtesy of the Joycean Tube man): http://www.bway.net/~hunger/ulysses.html

Does anyone have plans for Bloomsday?
 
 
Ariadne
17:39 / 11.06.02
I've found a solution - albeit an extravagant one - to the problem of wanting to read it again but being too worn out from the first time: I have it on tape. I'm listening to it as I type. It's abridged, to fit on four tapes, which is a shame, but it's good to hear the words I read so recently.
If anyone would like to borrow the tapes I can lend them after I've listened?
 
  
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