BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Policy & Help >

Films and Theories, and theories about films, and from films, and...

  
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:14 / 22.05.02
I just noticed someone moved the 'Case for the Empire' thread from the Head Shop to Film. I think that's a little premature. Although this is obviously about a film, no one's discussing the merits of the movie; the topic's about the Totalitarian state depicted and whether it's quasi-benign or malignant. I've hijacked it for a spot of analysis of what the popularity of the original films implied about the world and how they saw it, which I think is interesting, because the films so clearly influenced a generation... but it's not basically a 'film' topic. It's a political one which talks about film.

I've noticed recently that there's a tendency to hurl topics about ideas from books into the books forum, too. Isn't this a bit self-defeating?

It's also likely that, in the Film forum, the topic will end up being more about film, because that's what you talk about there - the forums are not just categories, after all, they're roadsigns to what should be discussed.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:35 / 22.05.02
Somebody else (who can identify themselves or not as they choose - I have no idea how mod accountability functions) proposed this topic be moved, and I agreed. If it had been a topic that had discussed whether a Totalitarian state was ever a justifiable response to an inefficient Republic, using the Star Wars mythos as a jumping-off point, I would have agreed that it should not be located in films. However, halfway down the second page it was an argument about whether Count Dooku's criticisms of that paricular fictitious Republic were trenchant or not.

Ergo, it was a discussion about a film, and I supported the move to Film. If there is a case for a topic discussing the political implications on a more abstract level, then it probably belongs in the Head Shop. It's quite possible that, with a different set of responses, the same thread would still be in the Head Shop. It just happened that the way it had evolved, IMHO, meant that a place in the Head Shop was adding little to the Head Shop while depriving plenty of Film enthusiasts from a topic they might find interesting.

The proposer also mentioned that ze felt it was unhelpful to stick the "clever threads" in the Head Shop, when they were logically about one of the things covered by another topic area, as it impoverished the quality of discussion elsewhere. In general, I think ze has a point.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:03 / 22.05.02
That topic was all of ten posts long. I think it was premature to move it, especially without any discussion in-thread - which meant that it effectively vanished. I think you're characterisation of it is inaccurate, however.

Lada's post, by way of example:

But isn't this the old argument that tyranny is a fairer form of government on the grounds that at least everyone is equally oppressed and powerless? The thing I tend to think of when I reach the end of 'Return of the Jedi' is that galactic order will fall apart and a lot of planets that relied on the Empire for their survival are going to starve because Leia's side appear to have nothing to put in place of the power vacuum created by the Empire's destruction.

Or, from Gypt's post:

it's apropos of the discussion to note that this is usually the fate of revolutions -- that they become so focussed on topppling the ruling body they botch things badly as soon as it's time for a new phase. and then we wind up with the sorts of atrocities that occurred after the "success" of the french or chinese revolutions.

This is a discussion of shapes of government framed loosely around the films. There is also the possibility of a parallel discussion about what the films sought to convey, how they perceived the world and how they influenced it, and what the differences are in the two cycles (original three vs. the two we have of the new movies) in terms of what they depict and what kind of morality and political situations they propose or assail.

In which connection, my reference to Dooku is about the clarity of morality and battle lines in the two cycles. The point was that there was never a moment in the first films where you didn't know who the bad guys were. Not so the new ones. The moral clarity of the first films is gone, replaced by a far more ambiguous set of groupings, alliances, and fundamental confusion. That's relevant to an attempt to look at the US and the West's current self-perception. This is not about the films as entertainment, but about what they show about the world from which they're drawn. That this topic is titled 'the Case for the Empire' is actually a significant pointer to what's changed. You couldn't have made much of a case about the Empire from the old films. The new ones don't have that certainty.

This is not a fanboy film thread. It's a Head Shop topic. Or at least, it will be, if we move it back. Otherwise, it's likely to die in the Film forum.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:20 / 22.05.02
Well, might I suggest that you put a post at the bottom of it asking the Film mods to move it back into the Head Shop, and if three moderators of the Films section believe that to be the case then it will go back to the Head Shop. At which point, should three Head Shop moderators feel it is inappropriate, it can go back to the Films section again, and so on ad infinitum. Hours of fun.

I would point out that, at present, this is probably a Switchboard topic, regularly interrupted by ramblings about Star Wars. And that, if somebody were to begin a thread with the abstract "Is Randall's disquisition on the unfairness of the destruction of the Death Star in the Return of the Jedi politically defensible?", or indeed "Do the Jedi have a consistent philosophy?", I would once again see its natural home in the Film forum, and see no immediately apparent difference.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:24 / 22.05.02
Nomadic threads? Remember them? They were quite a nice idea.
 
 
Tom Coates
14:24 / 22.05.02
The question that should be asked when we decide what forum our posts should go into is what is the post about. In the thread in question the post seems to me to be about the relative values of the fictional state within the storyline. This seems to me to pertain directly to the analysis of the film rather than to analysis of 'totalitarian states' in general. And as such I believe it should be in the Films section...

I don't know everyone else's position on this, but my interpretation of the various fora is that intelligent and comprehensive analysis of a film, book, website etc should generally happen in the various Spectacle threads. Whereas comprehensive analysis of an IDEA should generally happen in the Revolution. So for example I think it's completely appropriate to talk about Evolution in the Laboratory and to discuss the WRITING of the Origin of the Species in books.

And this pertains to some other areas of recent discussion - particularly the discussion of non-fiction in the Books forum. I would like to clarify my personal opinion on this matter - which is that if the discussion is about the BOOK then it goes in the books section (and may reference opinions on ideas and concepts), but if it is about the concepts in the book (even though it may reference the book heavily) then it should be a discussion for one of the Revolution threads.

For example - The Tipping Point thread is a discussion about the concepts in the Tipping Point book. As such it's completely appropriate that it's in the Head Shop and not the Books section. Unless a popular science book was being discussed in terms of its historical background / authorship / cultural history etc, then it too should generally be discussed in the Laboratory. Non-fiction that's ideally suited to the Books forum includes biographies, histories (except when the discussions are more focused and are about political change and learning from that, when they're more at home on the Switchboard).

The same applies to films / tv / art etc, although mostly narrative forms lend themselves to fictional representations, which generally will be almost completely the Spectacle's area of expertise. But with documentaries and the like, if the SHOW is being discussed (was it good or bad etc) then it goes into TV, if the concepts are being discussed (Spacetime as discussed in Brief History of Time for example) then it goes into the conceptual forum most able to deal with it - here again The Laboratory...

Again - this isn't to say that the debates in the Spectacle aren't important or relevant. For example, I would imagine almost every scholarly analysis of a text or film would emerge in the Spectacle fora. My psycholanalytic interpretations of the bacchae (for example) would be a pure theartre thread - because the intellectual effort was directed towards 'understanding' the text rather than using the text to 'understand' a theory (in which case it would make more sense in Head Shop).

The danger is (as Haus says) that otherwise the Head Shop is considered to be the place where 'intellectual' conversation happens and the other fora are drained of some of the most thought-provoking debates and become havens for list-making and review threads. Both of which are useful and fun, but which hardly reflect our range of interests as a community.
 
 
grant
14:53 / 22.05.02
I agree with that last paragraph.

It's not like you're not allowed to *think* in the Film Forum, any more than you're not allowed to goof on movies in the Headshop.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
15:25 / 22.05.02
yeah, what he said ;]

and, for that matter, if one was to apply this "moving of inappropriate threads" game across the board, then i would have to query whether the current thread about nerdbaiting on the WEF belongs in comics, since it blatantly isn't about any comics at the moment. but, since it's about a comics personality, no one has complained that it's "in the innapropriate place".
 
 
Tom Coates
16:08 / 22.05.02
Well surely we do want to move threads that aren't in the appropriate place into fora that they are more suited for. That's obvious right? And - more to the point - one of the jobs of the moderators (which they generally fulfil admirably). Goes on all the time, and quite rightly so...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:01 / 22.05.02
Is there then perhaps a need for some sort of function to allow for a discussion to exist in two or more forums simultaneously? The same thread title leading from (in this case, Films and The Head Shop)? Possibly this should be a moderators only function to avoid any floating fuckwits from using it to spam all the fora simultaneously?
 
 
Seth
19:41 / 22.05.02
Now that's an idea. I like it a lot.
 
 
Fist Fun
20:16 / 22.05.02
I think the most important part of thread location is the decision of the thread starter. If someone decides to post in a certain forum then shouldn't their wishes be respected? The placement of a post has an effect on the content. Is it the job of a moderator to police this choice, and place their own spin on the thread?
Obviously threads should go in the right place, but I think the thread-starter is the one who should make that choice.
 
 
SMS
03:11 / 23.05.02
I also like
My Misheard Lada
of the Flowers'
idea.

Buk, it has been Barbelith's practice in the past to move a topic not purely on the basis of the original post but also on the replies. I tend to support it. I do wish, however, that there would be some indication that it has been moved. I rarely go into films, but I had been following the Empire thread. I forgot about it after it left the Head Shop.
 
 
Tom Coates
07:16 / 23.05.02
We will be looking into all this stuff in greater detail. Some of the suggestions that people make are really interesting, some would have more effects than they are aware of, some are unworkable I think, at least long term. We'll see if we can think laterally and come up with something useful.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:51 / 24.05.02
Buk- It's not a problem generally, but we've had ReformedLeilaChromeMan starting a message in the comics forum that had nothing to do with comics and I think (but can't remember) Knodge has done an all-points spam in one of his 'why are you being mean to me?' phases. Plus of course sometimes people have said "I'm not sure where this should go but..."
 
  
Add Your Reply