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Classical comicbooks

 
 
paw
10:38 / 21.05.02
recently while trying to write a essay about French film i came to the conclusion that you must know the rules of classical hollywood cinema in order to comment on what's so interesting about the French New wave. Now the question i want to ask is this, given that Morrison, Moore etc. are regarded as being post modern/ modern whatever surely it is necessary to know and understand the comic book conventions of the period before all these writers appeared, something like the classical comic book period or something. i know nothing about the history of comics apart from the names of comic periods called the' golden' and 'silver age' (i think). What kind of material then should i be reading apart from 'understanding comics' to make my readings of Morrison and Moore more productive?
 
 
The Natural Way
11:04 / 21.05.02
Books on magic(k), politics, mysticism and pop-science.....

Comics be damned.
 
 
sleazenation
13:49 / 21.05.02
I don't actually think there are any hard and fast runs that should be read as moore and morrison both appear to be drawing heavily from "the comics i read as a child" and the conventions therein rather than the work of particular creators... that being the case hunting for old comics in the back issue bins or reprints of the same might be rewarding
 
 
grant
17:13 / 21.05.02
If you want to get more out of Flex, get some "Golden Age" archive volumes of heroes, and then browse the "Silver Age" revisions.
The Golden Age, by the way, roughly coincides with the "classical cinema" years, and the Silver Age intersects the same way with the French New Wave. Revision, stretching of frame, self-awareness... same sorts of themes.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
00:06 / 25.05.02
Read Marvel's "Captain America: Classic Years" Vol 1 & 2, Simon and Kirby's first 10 issues of Captain America, and you'll have a good idea of the template used for Super-hero stuff through the Golden Age. All of the stories were imitated to the Nth degree, and DC hired Simon and Kirby as soon as they could and had them working on a number of books quickly.

Then for the Silver Age, The third Fantastic Four Essential and the first Spider-Man Essential are the blueprint for the two styles of storytelling at Marvel (as well as the DC template) until the mid 80's.

For the Modern Age it's the Early Claremont X-Men and Alan Moore's Swamp Thing. You can trace pretty much all current storytelling styles to those books or the ones that came before if you dig into it deeply enough.
 
 
Sebastian
14:31 / 27.05.02
For anybody interested in defining what is classical and what is not in comic books I just came across this page here which makes an interesting and amusing case for discussion. Written by J.M. Straczinsky and penciled by J. Romita Jr.
 
 
moriarty
04:22 / 28.05.02
Sleazenation, Grant, and Solitaire Rose are all really on the ball. The only problem with this is that, if you were studying "classical" cinema you would no doubt be looking at numerous movies in many different genres and not just one or two titles that supposedly encapsulate the history of the medium (that said, Solitarie Rose's picks for the Silver and Modern Ages are as close as you'll get. I reserve the right to disagree with his Golden Age choice, but I'm sure a decent argument could be made for Cap). Of course, it would be hard to justify buying hundreds of fairly expensive Golden Age and Silver Age classics just for this purpose.

In addition, like Sleazenation pointed out, the Golden Age for any individual is usually when they were 12 years old. Look at the early Vertigo nostalgia on this very board, as an example. Moore especially has shown a fondness for many different titles by defunct publishers (Charlton characters inspiring Watchmen). Also, forgive my ignorance, but wasn't a large part of the New Wave inspired by B-movies, like Detour? And are you looking simply for reading that relates to Moore and Morrison and their ilk, or any modern cartoonist, like Clowes or Chester Brown?

My suggestion would be to haunt your friendly neighbourhood library. They usually have a fair amount of books on the Golden Age. I highly recommend The Great Comic Book Heroes by Jules Feiffer (yes, that Jules Feiffer). At least half the libraries I've visited have had this book, although they're usually in the Bindery department or otherwise indisposed. Other than that you'll usually find at least one Superman book and maybe a few books on Marvel and DC, or even general comic book books. Almost everything I've learned about comics has started from the library. God Bless the Library!
 
 
Mystery Gypt
04:56 / 28.05.02
i want to put in my 2 cents here just to say that i've recently started reading old spirit comics from the 40s, the ones reprinted by kitchen sink years ago, and Eisner skill is just mind boggling. i never used to get it, from a glance, when people talked about him, but these stories are gripping, imaginative and so tight, creating perfect little tales in only 7 pages each time. he's classical and pushing the envelope right at the same time, like DW Griffith and Goddard rolled into one guy.

i haven't read it yet but moore wrote some spirit stories in exactly the same mode... in fact, fuck it, i'm logging off barbelith to go read comics...
 
 
sleazenation
12:25 / 28.05.02
Actually i kind of think that any kind of examination of golden age and silver age comics that looks upon these as the sole foundation of modern comic books is kind of missing the point - Both the British and American traditions of comics are older than the golden age -the formats that later became established as the norm on either side of the Atlantic were formed far ealier than action comics 1. ..
 
 
paw
14:21 / 28.05.02
sleazenation wrote




could you give us examples please?
 
 
paw
14:23 / 28.05.02
damn , missing text. what kind of comics earlier than the golden age are you talking about sleaze?
 
 
paw
14:43 / 28.05.02
moriarty:

''Also, forgive my ignorance, but wasn't a large part of the New Wave inspired by B-movies, like Detour? ''


you could be right, haven't heard of detour. the new wave as i understand it took the language and rules of 'classical' american cinema that was firmly established by the 1940's and reconfigured and reconstructed this language in extremely interesting ways. i don't think their films are solely products of american cinema although the cahiers
group of which godard, rohmer etc. were part absolutely revered many of the films american cinema had to offer around that period..


''And are you looking simply for reading that relates to Moore and Morrison and their ilk, or any modern cartoonist, like Clowes or Chester Brown?''


I'm looking for others besides moore and grant. An overview(impossible probably i know) for a child who lived in the middle of no-where and didn't grow up with many marvel/ d.c comics. sigh.


P.S thanks for the suggestions everybody, youse have been helpful as usual.
 
 
sleazenation
15:20 / 28.05.02
I was refering to the origins of the american comic strips in the newspaper strips such as the yellow Kid and also the first autonamous comic books such as 'famous funnies' which set the size format for american comics in 1934.

David Kunzle wrote a fantastic two-volume examination of the evolution of comics unfortunately they are both out of print and very expensive - however there are a number of volumes, by Dennis Gifford that catalogue the early era. (most of which also appear to be out of print...)
 
 
paw
15:42 / 28.05.02
moriarty, did you post a reply to my last post? cause i read it and was going to reply but now it's not in the thread anymore. maybe it's my computer ...or i'm mad
 
 
moriarty
16:06 / 28.05.02
I love discussions like this. Excuse my long-winded post.

Picking up general books on the history of comics, or reading interviews with various artists in magazines like Comic Book Artist, Alter Ego or The Comics Journal may even gain you more insight then trying to wrangle up the huge amounts of comics you would have to acquire to get a grasp on the subject.

Another problem is that there are a number of distinct camps in comics. You can attempt to simplify it by dividing them into Adventure and Humourous. Many cartoonists have no interest in adventure comics, or if they once did they no longer do. Examples that spring to mind include Seth, Joe Matt, Chester Brown, and Chris Ware. All these individuals have had a love affair with Adventure comics in the past(and still do if you include such titles as Uncle Scrooge or Little Orphan Annie as Adventure strips). Respectively, the above artists seem to be/once were channeling/reinterpretating New Yorker cartoonists, Crumb, Little Orphan Annie, and Gasoline Alley, with significant overlap. All these comics can be picked up in your local, well stocked alternative comic store, used book store or online book store (Gasoline Alley dailies will soon be published by D & Q this year!)

I don't think that the evolution of the superhero comic book really came directly from the early humour strips. I'm more inclined to believe that it was a mixture of the old pulps and the newspaper adventure strip, especially Terry and the Pirates. In fact, almost all the original comic book cartoonists seemed to be failed comic strip and commercial artists. It's telling that such giants as Will Eisner, Jack Cole and Walt Kelly were so ready to jump ship the second an oppurtunity to draw a daily was presented to them (Will Eisner found the format of a strip to be limiting, and came back, while Cole and Kelly never returned). Comic books were read by children and GIs, easily disposed of, and considered by the general public as beneath them. Newspaper strips, on the other hand, were a mass medium, and though they were also highly disposable, they had a solid status in the world of arts and entertainment. It wasn't until well into the history of the comic book that cartoonists actually wanted to work in the field, preferring more respectable positions in commercial art and animation. This stigma lasts well into the present, though there are obviously finally people who love the medium of the comics and the format of the comic book exclusively.

If you want some sort of laundry list, I'd be more than happy to throw my two cents in.
 
 
moriarty
16:07 / 28.05.02
Sean, I reposted my questions from my first post. After submitting it, I found that you had answered the questions, and so I had the second post deleted. Sorry.
 
  
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