BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Robert A. Heinlein

 
 
Traz
20:48 / 20.05.02
Oh great and powerful purveryors of unconventional wisdom, what doth thou say about Heinlein?

Was he the master of the genre?

What were his greatest works?

Were his stories elegant justifications of the normality of polyamory, or merely cheap excuses from a man trying to rationalize away an overactive libido?

What morals are implied by his musings on religion, faith and the meaning of life?

And does anyone have a link to that excellent rebuttal Spider Robinson wrote to Heinlein's character assassins?

Please share! I wish to grok you fully!
 
 
grant
17:18 / 21.05.02
Lovely abstract.

Heinlein: libertarian, hard-assed, with a thing for strong-willed sex kitten women and multiple dimensions.

One of my favorites when I was 14.
 
 
that
18:43 / 21.05.02
I read a book of his once when I was about 15, because a friend of mine loved his stuff. It was passably diverting, about colonising, and then farming on Jupiter or something like that. Pulp SF, I assumed. And I did not like SF then, have not read any of his now that I am more open-minded about these things. So that is what I say about Heinlein, lacking in information and experience as I am.

However, I started a thread here once where someone ended up posting sex tips from Robert Heinlein, sorta.
 
 
Trijhaos
19:19 / 21.05.02
I don't have much of an opinion on RAH. I've read Starship Troopers, Stranger in a Strange Land, and Invasion of the Body Snatchers. I can't say I was really all that impressed. Seemed to be basic pulp SF stuff.

I looked for the Robinson essay, Rah, Rah, R.A.H, but couldn't find it anywhere.
 
 
Traz
21:04 / 21.05.02
Abstract hors d'oeuvres: "Art for breakfast! Art for lunch! Art for tea! Yahoo!"

Sorry.

I read Job: A Comedy of Justice and The Number of the Beast long ago; the latter impressed the hell out of me, mainly because his genius characters actually sounded like geniuses. I just finished reading The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Stranger in a Strange Land and received the same impression, though to a lesser extent. Heinlein's plots, admittedly, range from flimsy to nonextistent, but his characters are absolutely fascinating.

I don't think I've ever had the displeasure to read a bad Heinlein book...wait a minute...no, I take that back, I just remembered another one of his I've read: Farnham's Freehold. That was rather disappointing.

I've heard somebody claim that his story "All You Zombies" (which I've read and enjoyed) practically re-inventing the "time travel" cliché...but I've heard others say that The Puppet Masters (which I haven't read but was stupid enough to watch when it came out in the theater a few years ago) was bereft of anything remotely resembling originality from start to finish.

I think Heinlein can best be described as a stylist, not a creator. His chatty (some might say preachy) dialogue, rambling narratives and episodic storylines lend a light-hearted sense of fun to a genre that is all-too-often plodding, stilted and more concerned with the mechanics of star drives than character dynamics.

However, the more I think about science fiction, the less convinced I become that there is anyone who could be coronated...err, coronized...crowned the undisputed king of the genre. Wells, Verne, Asimov, Clarke, Bradbury...not of them stands head and shoulders above the rest, as Tolkien seems to do in the fantasy genre.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:48 / 22.05.02
Trijhaos saith: I don't have much of an opinion on RAH. I've read Starship Troopers, Stranger in a Strange Land, and Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

The Body Snatchers is by Jack Finney.
 
 
Trijhaos
13:54 / 22.05.02
Yeah, I know. Somehow I got Body Snatchers and Puppet Masters mixed up.
 
 
gridley
18:42 / 22.05.02
I've read puppet masters and stranger in a strange land. I found his stuff pretty enjoyable and I could see how it might have a really interesting effect on some kid reading them in 1960s suburbia.

Sometimes his male-chauvanism grates on me a little. picking from my weak memory, I remember two women in the space of ten pages jumping at the chance to get married to guys they hardly knew just for the sake of being married. still, product of the times, I suppose. a lot of his views on women were actually probably really progressive back then.
 
 
Mr Tricks
00:03 / 23.05.02
well... read "stranger in a strange land" a few years back. Was still new to free-lovin' california, orgies & mind bending trips... So I loved the book at the time. Still have fond memories of it... it was a nice read...
 
 
Harold Washington died for you
02:12 / 23.05.02
Emotionally I love Stranger but I think in literary terms Moon is his best book. He is the master of sci fi, Grand Master if you will, because his books are simply fun to read. It is easy to think up some some fantastic science innovation and lay a mediocre story on top, but Heinlein, bless him, thinks up a fantastic story and lays a very simple, usually derivative, sci fi thingy on top.

I think the "pulp" term is needlessly derogatory...every novel dosen't need to be thick and humorless to be "good." Another enjoyable read, if you can look past the anti-feminist dynamics, is "Friday." If you cut out all the teen boy fantasy crap, it is 40% of the first, great cyberpunk-genre novel.
 
 
ephemerat
08:20 / 24.05.02
"a lot of his views on women were actually probably really progressive back then."

Ah yes (opens Number of the Beast). Hmm... The continual obsession with one of the character's huge mammaries. Another (male) character's reflection that even women with small "teats" can be good in bed...

The remarkable insight into the way women really think. About their breasts:

"Our teeth grated and my nipples went spung."

"They do stick out, don't they?"

"I'd be an idiot to risk competing with Deety's teats..."

Nipples that are "pretty pink spigots" that go "up" and "down" with her emotions like - this simile is used - a barometer.

Sorry. Are we all reading the same Heinlein?
 
 
Trijhaos
10:32 / 24.05.02
Sorry. Are we all reading the same Heinlein?

Don't you have the politically correct, progressive books?

He is the master of sci fi, Grand Master if you will, because his books are simply fun to read

Ok, so I think David Eddings is fun to read. Is he a grand master of fantasy? No. Edding's stuff is derivative. Its the same story told over and over again.

Being fun to read doesn't make someone a grand master. If anybody really deserved the title of Grand Master, it'd be Gene Wolfe.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:28 / 24.05.02
He sucks! No, I mean, really. He begins as an intermittently amusing writer of schlocky pulp, then becomes progressively more obsessed about a) sex and b) taxes, clearly beseiged by not enough of one and too many of the other, and happens to catch a zeitgeisty wave with equally self-absorbed, cod-mystic, alienated hippies with terrible attitudes to women with "Stranger in a Strange Land", the best thing about which is the title, which somebody else came up with.

His books become more and more turgid, bloated and self-involved as he realises he now has a fanbase who will buy *any old shit*. Exploiting or possibly suffering from the same obsession with continuity and minutiae that defines the true geek, he starts to write books in which all the characters from his previous books can meet each other through dimension, travelling and thus locate each other in some vast mulitiversal history, as well as firmly agreeing with each others politics.

Meanwhile, we learn more about Heinlein's opinions on shaven pudenda then even the good Captain might have wanted to know.
 
 
Korso Jerusalem
11:38 / 25.05.06
Back from the dead! (What the hell is with the thread summary?)


I just finished The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, and while I love his characters (male chauvinism be damned, Colonel Campbell is the father figure I never had), does anyone else see a bit of a pedophile theme in some of his books?

His characters seem to consider porking underaged girls fairly often, though it never actually does happen. Was this just a product of the sexually experimenting 60s, or was Heinlein really just a sick bastard?
Opinions?
 
 
This Sunday
17:24 / 25.05.06
What I love with 'The Cat...' is that, being a proper comedy of manners, it's protagonist really doesn't have many of them in working order. He's an ass, but he's our ass, his eyes, our eyes, and all, so for the most, it's just everyone else who comes off like idiots.

On the sprung nipples front... the fore of Heinleins '"The Number of the Beast --"' is everything you probably shouldn't do in fiction. The Kent/Superman, Cowardly Lionesque Conan the Mild styled Zeb, the superbrilliant bombshell Deety, and so forth, are played types, deliberately played in the book. Nobody's got any real motivation, the castaways gig is overdone, and the whole thing's hammy as hell... while talking a leisurely walk through some really good fictions Heinlein happened to like the most. And, really, there's absolutely nothing wrong with some stiffening nipples, in prose or in life.

One thing that never fails to amuse me, is someone who'll read William Burroughs, William Gibson, or Michael Moorcock, balking at the sexualization of X in a Heinlein book. Want to talk sexist in Heinlein? Leave off the teats and reread 'Stranger in a Strange Land' and its nurse, there... I know, I know, she's meant to be a bit slow, and most of the men treat her as they do because of societal et cetera et al la la la la la... still! That 'give the little lady a prize bit' annoys me, specially. The preacher's a dick, in that whole scene, sure, but our leading lady also seems to be under the impression she's making some real mental headway, too.

The only defense I can offer for 'Stranger...' is that it's allegory, it was originally meant to be a children's book, and the Crowleyan possibility plays well enough, that, if true, the subtlety is lovely.
 
 
SteppersFan
11:31 / 05.06.06
Yeah, loved RAH, thought he was the best of all the sci-fi writers.

There was a really good analysis / defence of RAH in Rapid Eye back in the day (goes misty eyed...).

I think it can sometimes be a mistake to confuse the opinions of his characters with RAH himself.

My faves: probably The Cat that Walked Through Walls or Time Enough for Love. Great characters, really good endings (one sad, one happy).
 
 
Jack Fear
11:47 / 05.06.06
There was a really good analysis / defence of RAH in Rapid Eye back in the day (goes misty eyed...).

That was the one that claimed he was a Grand Magus and a secret Crowleyan master of Thelemic Magjyicxk, yeah? I'm afraid I found that a wee bit unconvincing, especially given the article's denouement, wherein the writer sits for an audience with Mrs. Heinlein (I paraphrase here):

"I lay out my theory, my overwhelming evidence, for Heinlein's widow. She gazes at me blankly, politely, then says, 'That's the biggest load of nonsensical bullshit I've ever heard. I knew Bob better than any human being now alive, and in the 35 years that I lived with him day in and day out, I never knew him to show any interest or involvement in the occult whatsoever. Ever. You're a pathetic excuse for a thinker, and you're engaging in typical masturbatory fanboy projection and wish-fulfillment. Get out of my house.'

"And as the attack dog sinks its teeth into my leg, I nod, understandingly. Of course you'd say that, dear lady. There are things of which we cannot speak, after all."


Perhaps I exaggerate slightly.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:35 / 05.06.06
I've been trying to find a great Tom Disch essay I read in Interzone years back where he draws a direct line from RAH's Farnham's Freehold to William Pierce's The Turner Diaries. Been Googling but I cannae find it.
 
 
Crux Is This City's Protector.
15:38 / 05.06.06
Didn't find that, but I did find a Heinlein USENET group discussion of another Disch critique, namely:

I have been attempting to read most of the critical responses to sf
ever published, in preparation for writing a history of the American sf
short story, as well as hunting for Heinlein materials.

I ran across this essay by Thomas Disch, which was originally published
in Peter Nicholls' "Science Fiction in Dimension," and now available as
the first entry in Disch's latest collection, "On SF." The piece is
titled "The Embarrassments of Science Fiction." Before you folks begin
distressing over the title, Disch actually has some very interesting
takes on the idea of embarrassment, as well as looking at SF as in some
ways similar to childrens' fiction (a genre he has written for, as did
Heinlein in the juveniles, and a genre I admire).

The piece takes a left turn into a discussion of Heinlein's "Starship
Troopers" -- which (again) gets labeled as fascist, and a source for
Norman Spinrad's "The Iron Dream" (a brilliantly unsettling book, in
which Hitler comes to America and becomes an sf writer...).

But the whole fascist charge isn't what I want to kick around here. I
am getting to the point where I think I need to go find all those
arguments which are in print, and go through and try to understand why
perfectly rational and intelligent people keep making that charge,
rather than simply dismissing them as idiots -- which, in general, they
aren't, as much as I know they're wrong.

I'm actually looking for some rational discourse on the loopy statement
which follows these concerns: 1) leaving aside his interpretations, are
Disch's statements of plot correct? 2) to the degree to which his
statements of plot are correct, to what degree are his interpretations
correct? I'd rather not dismiss them out of hand, simply because I
want to be able to respond effectively to this argument. If we can
keep the category of "the guy's an idiot" out of the conversation, I'd
appreciate it. Disch, by the way, has a number of complimentary
responses to Heinlein scattered throughout the books he's written, so
this is not somebody who's simply bashing Heinlein.

Here's what Disch says about "Starship Troopers":

"What is embarrassing to me about this book is not its politics as such
but rather its naivete, its seeming unawareness of what it is really
about. Leaving politics aside and turning to that great gushing source
of our richest embarrassments, sex, I find 'Starship Troopers' to be,
in this respect as well, a veritable treasury of unconscious
revelations. The hero is a homosexual of a very identifiable breed.
By his own self-caressing descriptions one recognizes the swaggering
leather boy in his most flamboyant form. There is even a
skull-and-crossbones earring in his left ear. On four separate
occasions, when it is hinted in the book that women have sexual
attractions, the only such instances in the book, each time within a
single page the hero picks a gratuitous fistfight with the other
servicemen -- and he always insists what a lark it is. The association
is reflexive and invariable. Sexual arousal leads to fighting. At the
end of the book the hero has become a captain and his father is a
sergeant serving under him. This is possible because his mother died
in the bombing of Buenos Aires by the Bugs, who are the spiritual
doppelgangers of the human warriors. In an earlier captain-sergeant
relation there is a scene intended to be heartwarming, in which two men
make a date to have a boxing match. Twice the hero makes much of the
benefits to be derived from seeing or suffering a lashing. Now all of
this taken together is so transparent as to challenge the possibility
of its being an unconscious revelation. Yet I'm sure that it was, and
that moreover any admirer of the book would insist that it's just my
dirty mind that has sullied a fine and patriotic paean to the military
life.
"So why bring it up at all? For two reasons. The first is that
such sexual confusions make the politics of the book more dangerous by
infusing them with the energies of repressed sexual desires. It may
be that what turns you on is not the life of an infantryman, but his
uniform. A friend of mine has assured me he knows of several
enlistments directly inspired by a reading of 'Starship Troopers.' How
much simpler it would have been for those lads just to go and have
their ears pierced. The second related reason is that it is a central
purpose of art, in conjunction with criticism, to expand the realm of
conscious choice and enlarge the domain of the ego. It does this by
making manifest what was latent, a process that can be resisted, but
not easily reversed. And so even those who dislike what I have had to
say may yet find it useful as a warning of how things appear to other
eyes, and be spared, in consequence, needless embarrassment."

link: http://www.archivum.info/alt.fan.heinlein/2005-10/msg00876.html

I approach Heinlein with the same unease that I get from a lot of Sci-Fi/Pulp writers, ie, so much of his stuff smacks so obviously to me of juvenile wish-fulfillment. It's been hashed over before, but I simply can't get into any book that was written so clearly so that its author could create a world where everybody who held all his opinions were the most valiant, clever, righteous, successful and oversexed people in it. It's the same reason I couldn't get into V for Vendetta; sure, V and [whichever crotchety Heinlein patriarch you like] are incredibly clever and entertaining individuals, but when that's all they are -- a romanticised and facile justification of the author, by fiat -- then they're not going to do much for me.

As for any potential homosexual undertones in his work, I have no comment -- save that it would be a lot more interesting than all this running around, slapping each other's asses and murdering aliens.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:59 / 05.06.06
Thanks for that, CD- Disch REALLY doesn't like Heinlein, does he?

I've been dubious of Heinlein since learning of the existenmce of Take Back Your Government, myself. Never having read Farnham's Freehold, I can't vouch for the accuracy of Disch's premise in the essay I can't find and therefore can't link to, but I seem to remember Disch saying it has a hefty dash of black people returning to barbarism- hence, I imagine, his Pierce comparison.

GodDAMN, I need to find that essay again.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:05 / 05.06.06
Although I will add that I really enjoyed Starship Troopers. If you can skip its nasty right-wing politics, it's a cracking story and a great adventure. Shame (well, not really) it got shat all over (imho) by Haldeman's The Forever War (which to me had a real sense of "balls to Heinlein, I just got back from Nam and war sucks" to it), though.

I really have to read more Heinlein- especially Stranger. Then I can have a proper opinion on him. At the moment it's based on the little I've read by him and the critiques I've read of him, so I'm probably being a little unfair.
 
 
Crux Is This City's Protector.
15:42 / 06.06.06
Stranger, to me, is a great example of the unease I was talking about before. Young-teen-year-old Me, reading it, was enthralled. Naturally, it seemed like a cracking good read, and the principles espoused certainly made a lot of sense.

Well of bloody *course* they did; it's filled to the brim with the kind of men Heinlein would like to be and the kind of women he'd like to fuck, and at every turn the women want to fuck him back and the men get to be clever and strong and wise. It is entertaining, but it is too much a novel of ideas; and as a novel of ideas it fails, because one realizes that the ideas contained therein thrive, but only because their environment is entirely contrived. It DOES feel like the Turner Diaries, in the sense that in it Heinlein creates a world and populates it with very thin characters whose sole function is to fulfill his personal philosophy. Part of the reason his apologists always seem to say "let's not confuse his characters' ideas with his own" is that as a man, his own voice and opinions always seem to be so close to the surface of his fiction.

I bear him no rancor, and as I said, he is an entertaining writer. But there is great unease.
 
 
Quantum
09:32 / 08.06.06
I read all of Heinlein as a kid and Citizen of the Galaxy is his best, followed by Star Beast, followed by Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Even as a fan I am happy to admit his later work is self-indulgent sentimental twaddle. He obviously wrote 'Beyond This Horizon' knowing it would be his last, as a love letter to his fictional alter egos.

He did invent the microwave oven and power-armour though, and he's a million times better than Hubbard. I recommend his early stuff where the right wing misogyny is embryonic and easy to ignore and he focusses on cool starship cultures and aliens.
 
 
Switchblade Honey
15:04 / 08.06.06
"I approach Heinlein with the same unease that I get from a lot of Sci-Fi/Pulp writers, ie, so much of his stuff smacks so obviously to me of juvenile wish-fulfillment."

To be fair though, his earlier - and in many ways, better - books *are* "juveniles", ie written for what we'd now call a "young adult" audience.

Including "Starship Troopers". I've always thought that it's a bit unfair to treat a rollicking adventure story - with a message about the importance of serving your country, understandable given that it was written in 1959 for the generation growing up after WWII - as a political treatise.

Also, even his earliest juveniles are better than "pulp" - the idea of tooled-up "space marines" flying about fighting aliens seems hackneyed now (mainly thanks to the film Aliens and its many imitators), but Heinlein invented it.

Now the later Heinlein, who's supposedly writing for adults, gets ever more hectoring and self-indulgent to the point of being totally unreadable, but that's a different matter.
 
 
Janean Patience
18:00 / 08.06.06
I've read a fair bit of Heinlein and his literary progression, from sci-fi writer to sci-fi writer keen on right-wing ideas to screw-your-daughter lunatic is certainly an interesting one.
Starship Troopers is the classic, and that Disch reading makes perfect sense. I believe, though I haven't the evidence here, it was written as a kids' book along with Moon Is Harsh Mistress and Swiss Family Space (or somesuch) and only published as an adult book when the kids' line ended. Perhaps that's why there's no sex, though it doesn't explain violence as a substitute.
A particular Heinlein favourite is The Day After Tomorrow, a totalitarian fantasy written at the behest of John W Campbell about an Oriental (the country is unspecified, but probably China) invasion of the US which leaves just a few military men and scientists as the sole resistance. Fortunately, they've a hidden bunker base and have invented the technology to do just about anything you can think of. The invaders, inferior to a few fighting Americans in possession of godlike powers, are exterminated. I believe John W Campbell liked that kind of thing. Best bit: the Orientals are fooled by pig Latin.
To Sail Beyond The Sunset, though, with a heroine whose post-coital gynacalogical examination by her father is lovingly detailed, and who at the emotional climax of that book screws him... that's weird, Bob.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:59 / 08.06.06
Campbell liked that sort of thing.

That I can believe- he did, after all, write Who Goes There? Which is an absolute classic of paranoia.
 
 
Janean Patience
20:04 / 08.06.06
I don't remember Who Goes There?, but Asimov created Foundation as a way of mollifying Campbell's desire to see the Americans win. Uncomfortable with having them be superior to all other races, he wrote a galaxy of Americans alone.

Campbell's The Moon Is Hell is one of the great 1950s sci-fi novels, though. The population of a moonbase, trapped, with no real hope of survival...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:40 / 08.06.06
Who Goes There? was the story upon which the movies The Thing From Another World and the superior (imho) Carpenter remake The Thing were based.

Strangely, the Carpenter remake is far more like the original story than the other one was. They're both great movies, though, and it's a fucking wicked story.

Sorry, I'm getting waaaaay off-topic here...
 
 
Janean Patience
20:56 / 08.06.06
Just one more waaay off topic post... I found a blog, somewhere, written by someone doing scientific research in the Antarctic who said that Carpenter's The Thing was actually quite a realistic portrayal of life on the froxen continent. Except, y'know, without the flamethrowers.

Anyway, Heinlein. Ever read his Job, as in the biblical one?
 
 
This Sunday
22:25 / 08.06.06
Am I the only one who prefers latter-Heinlein to his early works? 'Moon is a Harsh Mistress' or 'The Puppetmasters' are alright, sure, but I can stand dipping into the encyclopedic fictions like 'Time Enough for Love' or '"_the Number of the Beast"' more frequently.

His 'Job', lovingly details what makes especially the later books of HG Wells (his more political/social-construction works) very, very excellent, and the protagonists become increasingly easy to read as 'wrong' in many situations, for many of their extrapolations. There's no real question the Old Man in '...Puppetmasters', even when he isn't being played by Donald Sutherland, but Lazarus is immature and pouts with the best of them... and we know it.

Sex(ualization) in his works never really bothered me, mainly because Heinlein isn't writing from a standpoint of universal truths, in any one of the non-juveniles. It's always a character expressing their view... which can be viewed as a cheap out, but, well, I find it better than the author telling me 'definitely, this is it, the real truth, the absolute, and you're wrong if you disagree.'

Better to not have to agree that there can be nice rapists (expressed in 'I Will Fear no Evil'), pot is tantamount to murder (expressed in 'To Sail Beyond the Sunset'), or the very silly idea that no real scientist would be willing to suppress information (mentioned by Zeb in '... Beast' but not confirmed by his wife, who sidesteps). Characters can hold these beliefs, but I don't really feel preached at the way I do if it's an omniscient narration making the same suppositions and insistences. (Terribly immature of me, innit?)

There's a Spider Robinson-writ essay championing and somewhat lionizing Bob Heinlein ('Rah! Rah! RAH!', I believe) that should be somewhere online, and I agree with to some degree. What I don't agree with, and both those authors' believe and put into practice, is that a fiction ought to have a recognizable core of moral recognition. Heinlein uses that to dismiss Moorcock's Elric stories, and while I don't really like Elric (except for '...at the End of Time' where he's clearly the self-absorbed idiot and considers taming a flying car of some sort), it's not because Elric is amoral or not morally conflicted. That's not what fiction is for. Otherewise, I wouldn't be able to read Richard Stark novels - which, I do.
 
  
Add Your Reply