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The Case for the Empire

 
 
Captain Zoom
17:17 / 18.05.02
(Disclaimer: If it's decided that this should go in Film, so be it. I put it here as it seems more a political debate couched in the Star Wars universe than an actual discussion of the films.)

An interesting article right here.

(Crosses fingers and hopes his web-fu has worked.)

Well worth reading, but the gist is that the Empire in Star Wars are in the right. And it's a compelling argument. Whaddaya think?

Zoom.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:31 / 18.05.02
Well, yeah, but....
Look, Star Wars is not a political parable. 'Kay? Nor is it a system of archetypes skillfully constructed to engender spiritual awakening in the viewer. The first couple of films were about how a low-resource, lower-tech organization could kick a high-resource, high-tech organization's arse by sneaking around, hiding very unconvincingly and snogging, but mostly the whole series has been about lasers and spaceships and robots and lasers and aliens and- this is the important part- making a shedload of dosh for George. Sorry, but they're just films. Kids' films. Not great soaring epic tales of love, betrayal, and redemption. No. Sorry. Kids' films. KID'S. FILMS.

(And this is from somebody who just cheered for Yoda.)
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
21:04 / 18.05.02
It is a moral tale.
It is a Political Parable.
It is a Bundle of Archtypes.

It is ALSO a kid's Film.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
21:10 / 18.05.02
Just like I think the killing of afghan civies was unjustified.
The planetcide of alderaan was even more unjustified, one could call it evil.
 
 
SMS
01:52 / 19.05.02
One of his points is based on incomplete information. He says that the rebels have no plan for a post-impireal government, but, just because we don't see the plan doesn't mean there isn't one. We also don't know whether the Empire has had a major effect on day-to-day life. It might have ruined the lives of, say, 20% of the people in the Galaxy for all we know. And they might have been perfectly happy under the republic.

The arguments that the Republic is full of a bunch of squabbling politicians is fairly ridiculous. That the bureaucrats are in charge is part of the point of a democratic state. It's inefficient because we don't want the government to be able to make decisions quickly.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
06:52 / 19.05.02
Just like I think the killing of afghan civies was unjustified.
The planetcide of alderaan was even more unjustified, one could call it evil.


it's exactly this sort of analogy that would have made the cited article much more interesting. there are so many comparisons to be made between the US and the Empire, and between the rebels and terrorists. i had hoped this is where the writer was going -- not to make the point that the empire is objectively good, but that political insitutions we take to be good are more similar to the Empire than to the rebels. That CNN was running "America Strikes Back" just twists the knife.

obviously, the article's author is a patriot, and therefore can't make the meaningful connections between his own beliefs and the current confusion of good and evil.

but, just because we don't see the plan doesn't mean there isn't one.

this is a very poor form of critical thinking. fiction is not gossip about imaginary people, it is something constructed entirely out of the language and structure of the work. there is nothing "happening" that you don't see which is not divineable through the text. if after 7+ hours of film story, there's no discussion of the rebel's plans for government, then their plans for government are not an interest of the film. this means that even if someone the author had intended to show possible alternative governments to Fascism, the movement of the text has shyed away from doing so. we are left with only endless spaceship battles and a vague sense of "freedom" without an indication of what freedom in this universe might mean.

it's aprapos of the discussion to note that this is usually the fate of revolutions -- that they become so focussed on topppling the ruling body they botch things badly as soon as it's time for a new phase. and then we wind up with the sorts of atrocities that occurred after the "success" of the french or chinese revolutions.

it's also interesting to note that lucas decided not to do the last three movies, which long ago had been suggested. these would have been about the restoration of fair government after the revolution. by the movement of the text, we see that this restoration is an absence and a failure. (by this i don't mean that i'm imagining luke skywalker fails. i'm saying that the abscence of text suggests the failure of the governing idea).
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:42 / 19.05.02
I don't think it's fair to reject Star Wars as a political entity: it has a tonne of political roots. But you're misrepresenting the Empire in the films. The original Star Wars films were Cold War products, and the political aspect reflects this strongly:

an Evil Empire is explanding its totalitarian grip, producing weapons of mass destruction, and cutting away democratic freedoms. The resistance - a plucky group of individualist, frontiersman rebels, ready at hand with that down-home jerry-rig expertise so beloved of the US - A-Team, Michael Knight's constant field repair work on KIT, Streethawk's insistence, against all the available evidence, that you can flip the bike using the breaking jets - must use superior skill and chutzpah to defeat this menace; overmatched, yet somehow meeting the enemy on equal terms, the Rebel Alliance (patchwork, not Monolithic) can win against the solid, oppressive grey, black and white of the Empire.

They're aided by the Jedi, in the person of Obiwan, Luke, and Yoda: mystics whose power is derived from a connection with their feelings and the natural order. The Jedi fill the role of the intelligensia in Rebel Society - they preserve the true spirit of the Old Republic, the Golden Age. Unlike the evil scientists of the Empire (and the Soviet Union's chess-playing elite), their connection to truth is unmediated by intellect, and hence has a moral element as well as a practical one. This is an interesting solution to the dilemma the US faces as a state whose existence is owed to an act of conscious intellect which nonetheless has a deeply-rooted distrust of book-larnin'. The Jedi are primarily mystical, though they can, of course, deploy their knowledge of Right to achieve intellectual understanding.

The first films are fundamentally simple. Good, bad. Even the cunning ruses are pitifully obvious. The morality is clear, the battle lines are drawn, the stakes are unambiguous.

You can't make a case for that Empire - that's the point about it. What you can do is learn from it (and see how it shaped the US and the world) and also from the new films, which are far less clear cut. A few things from the new movies which seem significant:

the force is 'out of balance', and the jedi appear to have 'lost touch' with it, although their powers are even more phenomenal than they were before. The Old Republic is not, as you might have expected, based on an evolved British Empire/Commonwealth, which would suit the political setup in the first three films and which would still allow plenty of parallels with the present day, but on a nightmarish version of the US senate, corrupt, helpless, bureaucratic and conflicted. The enemy is within, concealed and frankly far better at almost everything than those in the legitimate authority. [spoilerette: Count Dooku's arguments about the situation in the Republic are utterly convincing, to the point where I thought for a moment we would see a reversal where it became apparent that Dooku was a hero who had left the Jedi order to fight the rot, and he was going to be a secret goodie]

We're two films into the new cycle, and still no one knows where the evil is rooted...
 
 
SMS
02:57 / 20.05.02
but, just because we don't see the plan doesn't mean there isn't one.

this is a very poor form of critical thinking. fiction is not gossip about imaginary people, it is something constructed entirely out of the language and structure of the work. there is nothing "happening" that you don't see which is not divineable through the text. if after 7+ hours of film story, there's no discussion of the rebel's plans for government, then their plans for government are not an interest of the film. this means that even if someone the author had intended to show possible alternative governments to Fascism, the movement of the text has shyed away from doing so. we are left with only endless spaceship battles and a vague sense of "freedom" without an indication of what freedom in this universe might mean.



This is actually what I'm saying, except that I say a lack of planning is just as much not happening as the planning itself. It may be a fair point to criticize the film for not showing us precisely what the alternative to the Empire is, but it is not fair to criticize the rebels. We see no evidence in the film that no plans are being made. We cannot use this as a point of argument one way or the other.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
09:38 / 20.05.02
But isn't this the old argument that tyranny is a fairer form of government on the grounds that at least everyone is equally oppressed and powerless? The thing I tend to think of when I reach the end of 'Return of the Jedi' is that galactic order will fall apart and a lot of planets that relied on the Empire for their survival are going to starve because Leia's side appear to have nothing to put in place of the power vacuum created by the Empire's destruction.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:50 / 20.05.02
Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet.

Pinochet... "relatively benign"...?

Fucker lost me right there.
 
 
Mr Tricks
21:56 / 21.05.02
I hear that...

makes me want to disappear his ignorant ASS!!!
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
13:11 / 22.05.02
i do like how the empire obviously co-opts the symbol the republic/jedi council uses.
Been thinking about getting the Empire gear logo as a tatoo...
 
  
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