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9/11: US Fails Intelligence Test

 
 
Not Here Still
16:51 / 16.05.02
Well, there's one conspiracy theory proved right...

Anyone got any thoughts on the state of the US's intelligence services?
 
 
grant
17:14 / 16.05.02
Members of the United States Congress have demanded to know whether the government was given enough information to head off the 11 September attacks. Their comments come after the White House acknowledged that President Bush was told a month before 11 September of a plot to hijack American planes by Osama Bin Laden.

I wonder what else they could have done....
 
 
kid coagulant
17:41 / 16.05.02
Perhaps if there was some sort of color-coded system in place to gauge possible terrorist threats?
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
17:48 / 16.05.02
I think that a lot of it was failure of the intelligence agency, but I think another HUGE part of it was that the current administration didn't have them on the radar as their bad guys of choice. They were looking for bad guys who they could use to push missile defense.

It will be VERY interesting to see how this revelation on top of Bush's people selling 9/11 pics to raise campaign funds will play in his approval ratings.

Odd that his theme song the last month of the campaign "Won't Get Fooled Again" was edited to remove the line "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" and we have a Bush Administration screwing up and having to fight a war because of their mistake and a White House Inhabitant who risks his popularity for underhanded fundraising.

Meet the new boss, indeed.
 
 
kid coagulant
19:54 / 16.05.02
This is politics as usual. Democrats trying to get their licks in against the Bush camp in an election year.
 
 
grant
20:28 / 16.05.02
I'd think that, but one of the harshest critics appears to be the Republican in charge of an intelligence oversight committee.
 
 
rizla mission
10:37 / 17.05.02
off-topic:

Odd that his theme song the last month of the campaign "Won't Get Fooled Again" was edited to remove the line "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"

ha ha - I bet they kept the bit about the shotgun singing the song though..

That song's great - it's clearly political, but it's so vague you could use it to support just about anything. It would be a good choice for anyone running against Tony Blair..
 
 
gridley
13:02 / 17.05.02
A big part of the problem was the "firewall" between the CIA and the FBI. If you took what the FBI knew (a recond number of middle-eastern non-citizens signing up for american flight schools, including one who said he just needed to know how to fly, not take off or land) and crossed it with what the CIA knew (that Al-Queda in the Phillipines were talking about hijacking planes and flying them into the CIA headquarters and the Eiffel Tower), you might possibly have guessed vaguely what was going to happen when they got the heightened hijacking alert.

But, alas, the two organizations do not share intelligence with each other. I've heard two stories about why this happens. One is that it's simply an old grudge. The other is that they did it to prevent the CIA from spying on American citizens...
 
 
kid coagulant
13:43 / 17.05.02
That picture of Bush on Air Force One on 11 Sept is up on Salon's website, if you haven't seen it yet...
http://www.salon.com/

There's been talk of Bush addressing the nation on Monday. That should be interesting.
 
 
Sensual Cobra
16:18 / 17.05.02
re: looking for bad guys to push missile defense: didn't they manage to use 9/11 as an excuse to budget the largest military funding increase in history, a portion of which went to sustaining the NMD? If I remember correctly, Bush specifically mentioned terrorism as necessitating a missile defence shield, to which most people replied, "Shouldn't we have a plane defense shield?" This administration seems to have a really dangerous and disturbing mix of cynicism and stupidity as their driving motive.

The most nauseating thing I've ever seen was courtesy of one of the Congressional talking heads - not an hour after the attacks - saying how the US government had failed its people by spending too much money on health care and schoolteachers while "shorting" the military. That's a paraphrase, and I'm actually cleaning up the logic a bit.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
09:59 / 20.05.02
Two good pieces on the estimable Dubya in the Grauniad this morning:

this one which is relevant to this thread: Conspiracy and cover up, looking at Bush's links to the Carlyle Group.

& this one: about Bush’s friend: Pootie-Poot, which was just silly...
 
 
Fist Fun
17:41 / 20.05.02
We should be very careful about expecting infallibility. The reason 9/11 happened was because terrorists decided to engage in terrorist activity, not because of the intelligence service. If we are going to try to lay the blame on them then we have to accept the kind of situations highlighted in the "FBI stretches a wide net", where someone was visited by the FBI for remarks made in a locker room.
 
 
Not Here Still
18:41 / 22.05.02
Sorry for not coming back to my own topic sooner - I was away at the weekend, and then I lost a massive post along these lines to this thread last night and just gave up. So here we go again, hopefully...

OPB Buk:

We should be very careful about expecting infallibility. The reason 9/11 happened was because terrorists decided to engage in terrorist activity, not because of the intelligence service. If we are going to try to lay the blame on them then we have to accept the kind of situations highlighted in the "FBI stretches a wide net" [thread], where someone was visited by the FBI for remarks made in a locker room.

Well... no.

I don't expect infallibility, for sure. I am certainly not under the impression that the Intelligence services in the US are James Bond-style motherfuckers, ready to save the day at every turn. No, I'm quite aware that they cannot and will not stop every terrorist incident.

And I suppose it's not so much the lower ranks of the intelligence services I'd say should be a bit less fallible, indeed, they seem to have done their job and collected the information before September 11, and without so many of the civil liberties intrusions described in the wide-net thread, It's more those who act on the information received (or not, as it happened) who I'm worried about.

I mean:

"The vice president, Dick Cheney, sat on a counter-terrorism bill passed to him in July. The attorney general, John Ashcroft, refused a demand for more FBI anti-terrorism agents. The defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, did not deploy a Predator drone aircraft which the Clinton administration had used to track Bin Laden. The national security adviser, Condi Rice, was warned in January 2001 by her Clintonite predecessor that she would spend more time on al-Qaida than any other issue. She launched a review, but let it languish in bureaucratic limbo. " (Jonathan Freedland, the Guardian)

Of course there is a massive amount of information moving through the Intelligence services' hands all the time; that is, after all, their job.

They are there to gather and analyse intelligence, and to put it together, look at what patterns emerge, and then to act on them.

"Lawmakers say U.S. authorities failed to connect the dots between the so-called Phoenix memo, an August CIA briefing paper given to President George W. Bush in Texas which mentioned bin Laden's al Qaeda group might use hijacking and the August arrest of Zacarias Moussaoui, who sought flight lessons in Minnesota and is now charged with conspiring in the Sept. 11 attacks."(Tabassum Zakaria, Reuters Alternet)


And of course, if the information was too vague to predict September 11, what does that mean for Moussaoui? If the information was too vague then to predict, then the Intelligence services must be doing a shitload of work now to convict - or does this 'vague information' suddenly mean a lot more now - enough for him to be tried and found guilty on it in a court of law?

Y'know, the Phoenix memo sounds interesting. Wonder how vague it was?

Well, the Washington Post said that the FBI publicly released only one paragraph, which contained a suggestion that a list of flight schools should be made and that the concerns raised in the memo should be discussed with other sections of the intelligence community.

They certainly didn't add the memo contained a terrorist group by name, but:

"A Phoenix FBI agent's request for a canvass of U.S. flight schools for al Qaeda terrorists was formally rejected within several weeks of his July 10 memo, after mid-level officials at FBI headquarters determined they did not have the manpower to carry out the task, sources familiar with the memo said."
(Dan Eggen, Washington Post)


Of course, no-one could have forseen such an attack as September 11, could they?

"Despite White House avowals that it would have been impossible to conceive before September 11 of a hijacked plane being used to attack U.S. targets, a 1999 report for the CIA envisioned a very similar threat.

It predicted Islamic militant Osama bin Laden would retaliate "in a spectacular way" against Washington for U.S. cruise missile strikes in 1998 against training facilities of his al Qaeda network in Afghanistan.

"Suicide bombers belonging to al Qaeda's martyrdom battalion could crash-land an aircraft packed with high explosives ... into the Pentagon, the headquarters of the Central Intelligence Agency, or the White House," the report said."
(Randall Mikkelsen, Reuters)


So yeah, you could count me among those who "question how the world's largest intelligence gathering organisation, with a budget of billions of dollars, could not have known anything about what was about to happen." (Lars Bevanger and Jonathan Marcus, BBC News Online, Sept 12, 2001)

But I'm sure someone will disagree...
 
 
Fist Fun
20:35 / 22.05.02
Hmmm, you might be on to something NMA. In fact, I have recently uncovered a whole novel which graphically depicts an airplane attack on the us. Don't the FBI read at all? This was a bestseller godammit. Perhaps this lapse would be excusable if it was an obscure work by a cult author, but this was Tom Clancy for crying out loud. A worldwide name!
Seriously though, the idea that anyone other than the people who carried out and planned the action are responsible for it isn't really very fair. If we do expect infallibility then we have to expect greater surveillance and everything that goes with that.
 
 
netbanshee
20:52 / 22.05.02
A simple fact that warning markers going up and no warnings given is a bad thing. If there was a shadowy threat of airlines being used as weapons, wouldn't it be at least a step in the right direction to inform airlines and their? Security that's a little tighter is either a deterrant or a possibility to capture or stop.

I'm sure either way, the events that took place would still have happened but maybe not the same way.

It's just unfortunate that the bureaucracy needs to drag their feet on everything. Time for some overhaul and effective government not providing more boosts and capability to an inefficient machine.
 
 
Francine I
04:06 / 23.05.02
Buk,

With due respect to your point, I think it's a little misleading. No one wants to hold Bush & Co. responsible for the attacks themselves. However, plenty of folks (rightly in my opinion) do hold our highly paid pundits responsible for the defense of the country, and believe proper foresight might have done better than a romp through Afghanistan as regards preventing terrorism.

We already have greater surveillence. The question is, then, if they're not using it to stop Terrorism(tm), then what are they doing up there.

The answer, I believe, is covering their own asses.
 
 
Not Here Still
17:29 / 23.05.02
OPB Frances' Favourite Phrasings:

No one wants to hold Bush & Co. responsible for the attacks themselves. However, plenty of folks (rightly in my opinion) do hold our highly paid pundits responsible for the defense of the country, and believe proper foresight might have done better than a romp through Afghanistan as regards preventing terrorism.

Indeed. I don't think I'm holding Bush and co responsible for the attack at all. But they didn't take much action when faced with some pretty heavy pointers something was up.

And I know the Tom Clancy stuff was a jokey point, but both came up with similar scenarios - indeed, the CIA's is very detailed, naming the guy who is suspect number 1 for Sept 11, one of the targets (or two if you think the theories the Pennsylvania plane was aimed for the White House are right), and, yes, the method of attack (minus the explosives).

But while Tom Clancy is paid to write bestsellers, the intelligence services are paid to protect the US from terrorist attack (among other things).

Well, Tom wrote the bestseller...

I don't think we need the further invasion of civil liberties with regards to intelligence gathering to stop terrorist attacks.

There seems to be a hell of a lot of evidence pointing towards some pretty bad stuff going down before September 11, which had already been collected by the Intelligence Services.

Invasions of civil liberties, even if you accept they are necessary, would not have stopped September 11 if the Intelligence Agencies could not see the patterns in their intelligence and what they indicated.

Indeed, one of the reasons given for September 11 is that the spooks were battling against TMI - too much information. Invading civil liberties to gather intelligence adds to the information, doesn't it?

You can pass as much counterterrorism legislation as you want.

But is such legislation any use if you don't act on the information which you uncover?
 
 
Rev. Wright
11:57 / 27.05.02
The FBI was under intense pressure yesterday to explain why its top officials had apparently stymied efforts by their own agents to investigate a long and clear pattern of evidence that Islamic extremists were plotting terror attacks on US soil.

More on this smoking gun affair update
 
 
gridley
02:59 / 07.06.02
Well the FBI and the CIA are both reporting to Tom Ridge as of tonight. They're not under his command, but basically the Secretary of Homeland Security will have access to all of America's intelligence, foreign and domestic. This should be good news, and yet I am frightened. I feel like this is how something very bad begins...
 
  
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