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Diane Pretty dies. Horribly.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

22:14 / 12.05.02

Just saw on the news that Diane Pretty, the sufferer from motor neurone disease who went to the Court of Human Rights to try to allow her husband to help her die, has just died. In exactly the way she was scared of- asphyxia and coma. This makes me feel kind of sick. The whole "sanctity of life" argument really didn't make anything better for anyone. She's dead anyway. What are everyone's thoughts on euthanasia/assisted suicide?

06:59 / 13.05.02

firstly, i am sad and very angry that diane pretty had her choice to die more peacefully taken away from her.

assisted suicide is accepted in other countries and there are safeguards. the idea that an ill person could be killed off because a greedy relative wants their hands on some cash is absolutely ludicrous, and too many people would take this choice away from others because they wouldn't want it for themselves. other bullshit arguements against pretty included: the nursing staff would be really upset if she'd been able to commit assisted suicide because they'd built up such a good relationship with her. tough shit! it must be a dreadful part of the job, but that is not an issue; and that pretty hadn't repented for her sins, and god would only end her suffering when she did.

i've got to get a living will sorted out. no way do i want these fucking idiots telling me i have to go on if i'm terminally ill and want to go with a bit of peace and dignity.

gozer the destructor

07:52 / 13.05.02

the idea that an ill person could be killed off because a greedy relative wants their hands on some cash is absolutely ludicrous

im sorry but I would have to disagree with this argument, as someone who works within the NHS complaints procedure daily, has to provide advocacy services for the family of deceased relatives, there is no doubt in my mind that some relatives would. Shit as that is, im afraid that's the way some people are...not that it stands as a full on argument against euthanasia (i am all for the right to die as much as the right to live) but it is naive to think that it would not be abused...

07:58 / 13.05.02

what i meant was that euthanasia wouldn't be brought in without safeguards; of course there would be the possibility of abuse, it's just that the picture painted by some of a doctor haring off to kill a patient just because a relative tells them 'ze said ze wanted to die. honest!' is nonsense.

10:28 / 13.05.02

I do think there's a danger, though, of people being persuaded (by family fed up with looking after them, or after their money) that they want to go, or should want to go. You know, they don't want to be a burden, etc. And so they are led to thinking that really it would be for the best.

pointless and uncalled for

13:59 / 13.05.02

I hate this whole sanctity of life argument. What exactly is it that these people are trying to protect? Doesn't the sanctity of life include quality of life?

14:11 / 13.05.02

Well, yes, of course - it's just down to who decides what consitutes quality of life. Someone else in Pretty's situation may have wanted to live as long as they could, and that's their right, surely? Then again, someone else might genuinely feel that life's not worth living if they become blind - or if their partner dies?

I'm not anti this at all, I wish she had won her case. But it's a complicated area, with the danger that people could be persuaded their quality of life was 'too low' and that therefore they should give in, get out of the way. I agree with sfd about the safeguards, just not sure how they can be structured to make sure they work.

pointless and uncalled for

14:25 / 13.05.02

The argument about deciding the limits of quality of life is certainly a difficult and compelling one.

The best that I can come up with would be that quality of life should be determined by the person seeking assisted suicide, a doctor and a specially trained counsellor. I can see where there could be room for interference in the decision but with a proper selection process then I think that this problem could be reduced to an acceptable level.

Morlock - groupie for hire

16:11 / 13.05.02

people being persuaded (by family fed up with looking after them, or after their money) that they want to go

Or indeed, being persuaded by people with strong moral/religious convictions that they should hold on much longer than is helpful to the patient.
I don't like either of these arguments, frankly. By all means put in safeguards to maximise a patient's optimism and minimise influence from selfish relatives but once someone has chosen to die before their illness gets them I say let them.

potus, I think that when most people refer to sanctity of life they're thinking of some variant of 'God's gift of life', ie something we have no right to cut short because the concept is too significant for our tiny little minds. In which case quality of life doesn't come into it.

Personally, I tend to think along the same lines as your post. Give the patient as much professional advice as is useful, but in the end the choice can only be theirs.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

16:17 / 13.05.02

Of course this could be abused- all legislation (and, indeed, most unofficial agreements too) are open to abuse. A lot of the process of any legislation should be the institution of safeguards against its abuse. Of course, this doesn't always work (as in the "greedy relatives") scenario. And that would need to be worked out in minute detail before anything could be said which would apply to the "general" case. But in this specific case, hey, fuck it, she was kind of adamant from the word go, they didn't have to draft any new laws or anything, they could have made an exception... (yes, I know that's stupid and simplistic and not the way things work... but I kind of wish it was.)

Funny how the papers reported it, too- some stressed the husband's "this was exactly what she was afraid of" line... some ignored that completely and went for the "peaceful and natural... in her sleep" angle.

I understand the reticence at making assisted suicide legal. But I also think that was a nasty way to go, when there were "other options". (to quote those crazy pro-life fuckers, though I hope horribly out of context).

Funny how papers (not naming any names, but the Mail's Peter Hitchens springs to mind) are against euthanasia, against abortion BUT see no moral problem with bringing back hanging... Obviously some life's more sacred than others.

16:47 / 13.05.02

Don't misunderstand - if I were in that position, I'd want an 'out' too, and would get pretty pissed off at people telling me I couldn't. Or rather, that someone I loved and trusted couldn't help me without fear of being thrown in jail for murder. It's cruel to insist someone like Pretty last until she dies painfully but 'naturally'.

I'm just being the voice-of-caution here, because it would have to be sensitively and carefully managed.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

16:58 / 13.05.02

Yeah, totally in agreement there... the safeguards and what-have-you WOULD have to be pretty stringent and well thought out. I wouldn't like to have to be the person who made them, but isn't that what we (allegedly) have governments for?

I know, there's no easy answer to this shit... I just know, totally and utterly, that this was wrong. I dunno... every way I can think of that it could have worked better, would also have had the potential for hideous travesties of justice.
It's a tricky one, no?

18:42 / 13.05.02

i wonder how euthanasia/assisted suicide works in the netherlands, belgium and oregon state, where it's legal. they must have workable rules?

as far as the pretty case goes, yes, i think it was clear cut. so i think forcing her to die like this was just cruel.

Morlock - groupie for hire

11:49 / 14.05.02

The law in the Netherlands is defined as conditions under which the doctor assisting the suicide or administering euthanasia is exempt from prosecution.

Off the Dutch Ministry of Justice site (I'm translating best I can):

The doctor MUST notify an oversight committee of each request for euthanasia/assisted suicide, who will then monitor the process. Doc must:

a. be convinced that the patient's request is voluntary, well-considered and lasting.
b. be convinced that the patients suffering is interminable and unbearable.
c. have informed the patient of hir situation and of all options available
d. must come to an agreement with the patient that the situation does not provide any other reasonable solution
e. must consult at least one other, independent doctor who has seen the patient for themselves, and
f. recieve written agreement with a-d above from this doctor
g. must carry out the termination with all care and attention to detail.

Oversight committee decides in the first instance if an investigation is warranted. Committee consists of at least three members, one legal type (chairman), one medical type and one expert on ethics. At least one substitute is designated for each member. Five of these committees nationwide, producing (anonymous) yearly reports for regulation.

Minors are also allowed for. 16-17 year-olds are considered capable of deciding for themselves, 12-16 need consent from parent/guardian.

A request can also be made through a living will, which would satisfy point (a) above. Ieally such a statement would only be added after consultation with a doctor.

Note that there is no requirement for the doctor to fulfill a valid request if one is made.

Not sure if this would have helped Diane Pretty, can't remember how much she suffered day-to-day.

14:18 / 15.05.02

This is just awful...in essence, being forced to go in a way you'd be in complete opposition of. Instead of sanctity of life, we should all have sanctity for the completion of existance and the right to choose. Death isn't so bad is it. Just cause some people fear the unknown...haven't heard one complaint from a dead person yet.

I filled out the organ donor section on my license a few weeks ago...now it's time to think of drawing up a living will. Thankfully though, I know a friend or two of mine would hopefully risk their hides to put me down if I were in a terminal and unbearable situation. Just cause the law opposes my feelings, doesn't mean when the big question is looming, I will regard it.