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Shamanic Journeys and the Self

 
 
Seth
16:16 / 11.05.02
There's one thing I've noticed about the journeying experience I've had - that a kind of "higher" self takes over. As soon as I attempt to introduce conscious decision making things invariably stuff up and either I lose focus or trouble turns up.

So I've been letting ego/conscious self recede, using it to focus on maintaining the journey and my basic intent, but individual choices are made in journey by sitting back and waiting to see what this "higher" self does naturally. Although I recognise him to be me, I feel like an observer... no, I actually feel more like the battery than the observer, if that makes sense (my focus and intent being the power source that enables this shamanic self to take actions and make decisions). So, is this what other people feel during journeys? What happens to the individual undergoing the experience?

Note: I use "higher" in inverted commas, not as a comment on high and low, more because it's a pretty standard Jungian kinda definition for that part of us that seems older and wiser in these situations. I figured it would make the thread easier to understand, but if anyone can come up with a better non-dualnormative term I'd be happy to use it . In this case, it's more finding the right part of me for the right job, rather than believing that any part is necessarily higher than any other.
 
 
Rev. Wright
17:06 / 11.05.02
To add to the use of language in this thread, I suggest the use of 'Self' and 'Ego', teh 'Self' being 'Higher Self' and the 'Ego, being the 'mundane self'
In my experiences I have found that the Self knows entirely what has transpired, what is happening and what has yet to manifest. I find myself very comfortable with associating with my-Self, and letting go of the Ego as lone identity. Obviously detatchment of the Ego, has become an unatural task, when society is comprised of soo much Ego gratification. Thus isolation and remoteness of enviroment when journeying is useful. Remove and unravel the clutter of that which fetters.
With practice I have found that I can switch, in waking life, between the Self and the Ego. It is at this point of reckoning that the norm of Sanity, becomes a barrier to spiritual progression. A grey area of where scepticism lies, and wrestling parts of ones personality/character from the Ego, which holds onto its psuedo dominance.
Hmmm, not sure if I'm waffling, denbate and questioning will create focus.
 
 
ciarconn
02:46 / 12.05.02
The pooint merits a long debate, and I will think about it while I sleep zzzzz
But before I go to sleep, I would question if the Freudian division of mental funtions is really usefull in this quasi-epistemological kingdoms of conswcience. It confuses the personality/mask (ego in Will's definition) with the nucleum (self in Will's words) into what Freud called the Ego (ussually traduced as I/Yo)zzzz
I;m falling asleep and there's a Tool videoclip on TV,
Can;t think, write later
 
 
ciarconn
12:18 / 12.05.02
Eight hours of sleep later (that must be a record) I'm back.
Trying to get back into the main thread.
I can't say I have left my self to take control of me/my experiences, but I'd like to think that I am detached enough of my ego to know when it's working and how to stop it.
My mind is abstract, so I experience my self in form of intuitional information.And yes, the ego can be problematic, even dangerous. Once I was in a ritual on the woods, and my ego felt in danger because of it, so it made my sugar go up (I'm diabetic) and I had to go back to my home (almost to the hospital)
 
 
Ierne
15:16 / 12.05.02
if anyone can come up with a better non-dualnormative term I'd be happy to use it. – expressionless

Oh, let me try. what's the worst that can happen?

The ego aspect of the self is a persona – a mask that we wear in order to deal with certain situations that are important and necessary (like working at one's job or kicking it at the club or visiting parents). It is as much a part of the self as any other, and just as important, but it serves a definite function, and diverted from that function it can sometimes get in the way.

When we journey, we take off the mask and leave it behind. We are still ourselves but using another aspect of ourselves which functions better in this particular situation.
 
 
Ierne
15:31 / 12.05.02
I forgot the term, didn't I? oops.

How about "deeper self" instead? I don't mean to say that the persona of the ego is "the Shallow Self" (because there's nothing shallow about living in the real world, yo). But the aspect of the self that comes into play when one journeys tends to reside deep inside one, and only really comes out when it's needed.

Hope that helps somewhat. As to what happens...I might get back to y'all on Monday, because this requires thought & focus.
 
 
Rev. Wright
17:36 / 12.05.02
'But the aspect of the self that comes into play when one journeys tends to reside deep inside one, and only really comes out when it's needed.'

I look at this in a different way, seeing the 'self' as being constant, rather than 'deeper'. Depth perception of this comes from its multifaceted* nature, in comparison to the Ego. The Ego, as you say, is a mask, it sits on top of the Self and in most situations obscures the Self. When one acts from the heart, or intuitively, I feel that this is the Self. When one acts from a conscious decision, such as bargain hunting, this I feel is the Ego at work. operating in its favoured plain of existence, the material world.
Journeying in this case, would be the act of loosening the effect of the Ego.

When it comes to the Persona, I find that it is a mix of both Self and Ego, the mix being favoured to one or other depending on situation, or long term, by awareness.

*By multifaceted I mean that the Self comprises of many subconscious routines and the biochemical body politic, plus communion with the inner and outer spaces.
 
 
Bill Posters
12:33 / 13.05.02
This is a really interesting thread.

What bit of 'me' goes on a journey? I've always copped out of that one by thinking of the self as a continuum of sorts which can be labelled in many, many different ways. It's multiple, and a different bit of 'me' is doing the travelling, and that's all I can be sure of. A dream is a journey of some sort, and yet the 'me' that dreams is not necessarily the same bit of 'me' that does a pathworking. Unless it's a lucid dream, in which case maybe they are the same bits of me. Or is it the same 'me' with less control, agency, power over what happens? Does any of that make any sense whatsoever? Should we even be trying to 'make sense' of this on a rational level?

And the related question is of course where does this bit, or do these bits, of 'me' go? To an Otherworld? To an innerworld? A higher plane? A lower plane? An astral plane? It's so so confusing, there are so many different ways of 'mapping' wherever these realms we go to actually are, in relation to the realm of 'physical reality', and also what form they take in and of themselves. And that map is never the territory.

Which is all a bit confusing sometimes. Sorry, not a very helpful post this one! I suppose it just all very very relative...
 
 
Ierne
18:14 / 16.05.02
I'm bumping this thread up because I think we can get more mileage out of it, and also because
the Fool's dream thread reminded me that when I journey, I often take a train to my destination instead of flying, shapeshifting or other commonly-heard methods of soul journey. As Bill Posters mentions above, "A dream is a journey of some sort..."
 
 
ciarconn
21:31 / 16.05.02
I wouldn't think that it's just a part of oneself that does the travel. The experience happens to the whole compound of functions that integrates oneself. the divisions are being made sinthetically to understand better what happens.
In the same manner, the advancement or backjumping affects the whole complex being, not just a part. In a wya, I think, it's the belief in the inner divisions of the mind that allows the ego/personal importance to take hold of the business.
 
 
ciarconn
01:41 / 18.05.02
para-identities, dream bodies, astral bodies, tulpas, ficsuits, thoughtforms, doppelgangers... Where does Totalself end?
 
 
Seth
10:13 / 18.05.02
I completely agree that the divisions we make are artificial in order to understand the experience better. For example when we walk we most often think about an action using our legs. However, walking doesn't just use our legs, but muscles throughout our entire body working to balance us, as well as tacit knowledge of how to walk and (usually) a conscious intent concerning where we want to go. In fact, is this the same process as when we journey shamanically, only with sensory input from the outside world?
 
 
Rev. Wright
17:16 / 18.05.02
Calls of nature and their omission, is always a sign of narrative fiction. Anyone had any bladder situations in their journeys?
I suggest this bodily function as an angle to possible discovery of self in regards to body politic and self, in journeying. What occurs in waking life that is unecessary/omitted from pathworkings/astral travel.
Did I just make any sense?
 
 
Rev. Wright
11:44 / 19.05.02
Got passedthis article in a chat, may be of use:

Self-concept

Self-concept-the way in which one perceives oneself-can be divided into categories, such as personal self-concept (facts or one's own opinions about oneself, such as "I have brown eyes" or "I am attractive"); social self-concept (one's perceptions about how one is regarded by others: "people think I have a great sense of humor"); and self-ideals (what or how one would like to be: "I want to be a lawyer" or "I wish I were thinner").

While a number of philosophers and psychologists have addressed the idea that behavior is influenced by the way people see themselves, investigation into the importance of self-concept is most closely associated with the writings and therapeutic practices of Carl Rogers. The self-and one's awareness of it-lie at the heart of Rogers' client-centered therapy and the philosophy behind it. According to Rogers, one's self-concept influences how one regards both oneself and one's environment. The self-concept of a mentally healthy person is consistent with his or her thoughts, experiences, and behavior. However, people may maintain a self-concept that is at odds with their true feelings to win the approval of others and "fit in," either socially or professionally. This involves repressing their true feelings and impulses, which eventually causes them to become alienated from themselves, distorting their own experience of the world and limiting their potential for self-actualization, or fulfillment. The gulf between a person's self-concept and his or her actual experiences (which Rogers called incongruence) is a chronic source of anxiety and can even result in mental disorders. According to Rogers, a strong self-concept is flexible and allows a person to confront new experiences and ideas without feeling threatened.

Social psychologists have pointed out that self-concept also plays an important role in social perception-the process by which we form impressions of others. Attribution-how we explain the causes of our own and other people's behavior-is particularly influenced by our own self-concept. Social learning theory is also concerned with the ways in which we view ourselves, especially in terms of our perceived impact on our environment. In the first major theory of social learning, Julian B. Rotter claimed that the expected outcome of an action and the value we place on that outcome determine much of our behavior. For example, people whose positive self-concept leads them to believe they will succeed at a task are likely to behave in ways that ultimately lead to success, while those who expect failure are much more likely to bring it about through their own actions. In a general theory of personality he developed subsequently with two colleagues, Rotter designated variables based on the ways that individuals habitually think about their experiences. One of the most important was I-E, which distinguished "internals," who think of themselves as controlling events, from "externals," who view events as largely outside their control. Internal-external orientation has been found to affect a variety of behaviors and attitudes.

Gale Encyclopedia of Psychology, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 2001.
 
 
ciarconn
12:02 / 19.05.02
The ego and super-ego loose power while in the journey, so thepower dynamicas/politicas of the conscious state do not apply.
ON the narrations of John Lilly's travels whiled in a sensory supression tank, one of the things he points is that the urination process goes into an "automatical" control (without conscious power) after being a time in there. INteresting change, seen from this perspective.
 
 
Rev. Wright
12:05 / 19.05.02
Also this
 
 
Rev. Wright
12:06 / 19.05.02
and this
 
 
—| x |—
09:02 / 20.05.02
t – 8 and counting…

OK, I’ve read this thread carefully a couple of times now and am ready to make a reasonable contribution. To begin, I’d like to say that if, like fenris 23 says of some elsewhere, you did not understand diZzy or if diZzy annoyed you, then perhaps you’d better simply skip over what I am going to say (or if you haven’t read diZzy, then either go read it—it is likely on page six or so of the Magick forum—or struggle through with the linguistic devices being employed here: it might make some sort of sense to you without the pre-reading!).

At the beginning I’d like to say that I tend to see the Self as {nothing, everything}. Or, put differently and with a little more “sense” (as I may have put forth before), s = {self, other}, where this other could be anything that is commonly seen as “external,” “foreign,” or otherwise “unknown” to “self” currently.

Now, “higher” self is a great way to avoid certain traps that beset the traveler on hir path. By this I mean, and as is being discussed, viewing the pathworker part of yourself as “higher” avoids certain pits of egomania and megalomania. When we understand that, in essence, each and everyone of us is a god/dess, and begin to take hold of the power and the responsibility that comes from such a realization it is important to allow ourselves an avenue to get out of our own way and merely enact the acts that need to be acted. In different words, as we come to recognize the extent to which we create the world we live in it often becomes an important device for us to use a category like “higher self” in order to avoid thinking that we are the king-shits of the world because such power will go directly to our little heads, and thus, remove most chances for real accomplishment as we become lost in ever increasing illusions of grandeur. As well, separating our “ego” from our more “magickal” self is a convenient way to avoid taking too much responsibility for the shitty world that we collectively create. As I’ve put forth elsewhere, each and everyone one of us plays a role in creating both a better world and a worse world and it can be hard on the psyche to accept that some of the horrors in the world are our own doing. In short, thinking and employing a notion of “higher self” helps us avoid our own ego traps and cushions the fragile psyche against understanding too much before we are ready to deal with the responsibilities of such understanding. Now, this is not to say that having/creating a “higher self” is somehow misguided or wrong: it appears to be a necessary step in our coming to understand our own identity and also serves as a sort of “role model” by which we can diffuse the darker parts of our egos and aspire towards a brighter, better being.

To borrow from Will, it becomes part of our task as travelers to integrate what he is calling the mundane self with the higher self. Again, to borrow from diZzy, the being that we are is {mundane, divine}. The reality, it seems to me (and borrowing form Buddhist notions), is the middle road between the two extremes (and this is why duality is an important part of our world: without the extremes there would be no interim in which manifestation could occur!). It is the tension of apparent opposites that creates an opportunity for there to be an “interdependent co-arising.” This is a borrowed Buddhist term that recognizes that there is no permanent things, but only the manifestations that occur due to the interaction of empty parts, and such interaction must occur between at least two such empty parts. To rephrase and clarify, it does not make much sense to think of the divine in isolation nor the mundane in isolation: it is the two together that create and define one and other, and it is the two together that create the reality; thus, the being that we are, our self, is in reality {divine, mundane} (like any other thing in the world). As Will relates, we come to a point where we are able to switch, with relative ease, between the mundane self and the divine self, as we might with those psychological drawings (figure-ground) where we can see, say, and old crone or a young woman (or, for another example, a goblet or a pair of faces facing one and other), but we can not typically see both at once. The real trick (as in magick), is to come to see the young woman and the old crone at the same time; that is, to see ourselves as both the {mundane, divine} = S(elf) all at once.

I am critical, but not overly so, of thinking that our journeying is somehow leaving behind our masks, as Ierne puts forth. When we journey (and perhaps this is what Ierne was getting at or meant to say) we simply wear a different mask: the shaman’s mask, the wizard’s mask, or some such disguise. Again, the real trick, from my perspective, is to come to wear all the masks at once, or put differently, to wear no masks at all. I have an intuitive/intellectual sense that this comes to the individual realizing that s/he walks a path that has no beginning, no end, and moreover, no steps! It is hard to put this sort of thing into words because, it seems to me, that the words serve to obscure the reality of something that cannot be adequately expressed in any language we know or would care to create. It can only be non/experienced, and even this is likely less than it {is, isn’t}. In short, we all play roles and don different masks for different circumstances. Each mask (like Ierne points out regarding ego) serves a certain function and is usually not meant to serve other functions. Again, it seems to me that enlightenment might be to wear all the masks and no masks regardless of the “external” circumstances (for the enlightened being comes to live the understanding that “external” and “internal” are also masks that we wear in order to confuse and entertain our own being—maybe!).

In a similar sort of criticism, I would say that I for one have had it up to here [holds hand up above top of head] with the dichotomies that fuel raging debates about what is and is not the case. I am referring now, in part, to the differentiation that Will is attempting to make between the Self as acting by intuition alone and the Ego as acting through rational faculties (I am not yelling at you Will or trying to bring ya’ down, I merely want to point out how difficult it is for us to escape pseudo-dualist thinking: my “up to here” has to do with much more than what you’ve said Will—it is a frustration with the way that Western thought works in general, especially in the academic realm!). Again, it appears to me that the reality of our being is the intersection of our heart and of our mind; this is to say, I think Self is that which acts from the heart as tempered by the mind and acts from the mind as tempered by the heart. Again, if we want to employ the sort of language structures that were developed in diZzy we get:

{Self, Ego} + {heart, mind} = s, where here the ‘s’ is the reality of our being—our “real” identity.

This might echo some of what Bill has said, but then gets lost in notions of levels and such. I want to say that there are no levels, other than the levels that we create to aid our understanding and to shield our psyches from trauma. The realms that we divide the world into mirror the parts the we divide ourselves into and not any of these are anything more than, as Bill points out, ways of mapping the reality that we find ourselves in. But, as readers of RAW know, Korzybski (sp?) enlightened us with “the map is not the territory.” Put differently, the way we carve up the world is relative to the way that we are capable of understanding and functioning in the world, but we mustn’t think that it is the reality and must bear in mind it is only our understanding of the reality. This works the same for diZzying language such as, “{x, y} = s is the reality.” It isn’t, but seems a way to try to get at “the reality” via resolving dualistic thinking. If nothing else, it is device that allows me to attempt to communicate my understanding while at the same time pushing my understanding to places it can’t get to otherwise; put differently “{x, y} = s” is a tool that we can pick up, put down, or leave on the shelf, but it is a tool that works well for me, and I can only hope that it might also work well for you!

I find Will’s inquiries into bodily functions very interesting. I have had some experiences that might be similar to this. I tend to wonder if it is a reminder of the equal importance of the material world and its bodies in contrast to the spiritual world and its forms. Again, because this is the tool that I use, it appears that {material, spiritual} come together to create the manifestations that we experience. To switch up the metaphor, it is as if we are the centre of a circle and as we journey, whether to the local market, the astral world, or whatever, we trace a path away from our centre. Such “accidents” might be a reminder to remember to return to our centre; however, again, I have the inkling that the centre and the circumference share an identity and that their location is both everywhere and nowhere. Which brings me back to my opening statement:

Self = {nothing, everything}.

happy/sad non/trails,

{0, 1, 2}

(I can hear the frustrated cries of “obsfucation” already! )
 
 
Rev. Wright
11:48 / 20.05.02
Lovely to hear from you modthree, lovely.
 
 
ciarconn
12:23 / 20.05.02
M3, I really felt you lurking in the background.
Welcome
Will analyze your text deeply later, now I have to prepare classes
 
 
Ierne
13:00 / 20.05.02
Anyone had any bladder situations in their journeys? – Will

If you are asking if anyone here has ever had to evacuate their bladder during a journey, then I would say yes, I have. When this happens, I come back, take care of business and return to the journey. No big deal.

In response to anyone who may have misunderstood my initial post in this thread – allow me to re-iterate, in clear, simple sentences:

The ego aspect if the self is not separate from the self, in my opinion. I never claimed that it was. In fact, I stressed its importance in the wholistic scheme of the self. So when a self journeys, the whole self goes, but a different aspect (in my opinion) performs the necessary functions to facilitate the journey.
 
 
ciarconn
23:18 / 20.05.02
OK, let's try this from hypothetical point of view. Against the general current.
So, we have a "self", composed by the I, the super-I and the id/inconsciousness. On some myxtical experiences, we find a "higher"self", which seems to know the handy dandy of the things, but it's still inside us, no?
And then, at the end of the road, there's the "higher-higher", the divine principle. Is it functionally distinguishable from the "higher"? Or We're talking about the same function with different steps?.
I know the mystical answer goes on the line of "it's all the same". How does one experiment it psychologically(subjective)? rationally(objective)?
Have fun
 
 
ciarconn
01:47 / 21.05.02
Hey, here's another one.
Our "standard" self is just a manifestation of our "higher" self.
The one we learn to use, the only one we learn in our civilization.
But there are other possibilities, many of them.
If we can learn them, imagine them.
If we can unlearn our actual configuration as the obnly one, and open ourselves to the possibilities.
There can be many selves.
Can that be "selfplex"?
 
 
cusm
14:49 / 21.05.02
I see the Ego as merely the part of the self which is aware of the self. Sentient thought is a recursive system that includes its self as a source of input. It is processing and reprocessing its own data, reevaluating and refining, self causing change to the self. But if self is a system, at what point does that system take in itself as input? That is the ego, the flash point of sentience, the place of contact where reaction takes place, where self loops in upon self. If too big, this reaction can grow, and the system can become obsessed with itself tothe extent of paying less attention to external data. Self absorbed, introverted, careing only for its own desires. Should it diminish, the external becomes more important and accessible. Dissolved as in states of trance, the self acts as a whole, both aware and unaware of itself. Self awareness without the ego is both complete and unconscious, unaware but accessible. When the ego is gone, the self ceases trying to modify itself, and acts only according to its nature and programming. There can be no dishonesty or misrepresentation with no ego, nor can the self guide its own development. Change is a factor of only external stimulus.

But this is not the state of shamanic travel. The state of ego dissolution is one of living in the here and now, in this moment experiencing all things at once without internal review, a being of reaction and not action. It is an ideal state we can strive to reach but can not hold for long. In shamanic travel, there is still a focal point to consciousness that interacts with the system of the self. Shamanic travel is as much a journey within as it is without. Only, the self moves without will, acting again as without ego but still acting to some degree. The Ego is present, but diminished, expanded, partially dissolved. It is a field rather than a point, though it is still a smaller element moving within a larger body.

The duality issue comes in identification, are we the total system we move within, or the point which moves within the system? Are we the sum of all we know, or that which we are thinking about right now? Duality seperates the two, though they are a part of one system. M3 gets this, and speaks a language I sometimes use a version of. If 0 is the body of unconscious self and 1 the conscious point of ego, the total self is the set of {0,1}. Seen as a whole, three elements are present: 0, 1, {0,1}, which I express as 1+1=3 when I want to sound like M3
 
 
Rev. Wright
22:54 / 23.05.02
Haven't had the time to check it all, but its another angle on this discussion that got passed to me, here
 
  
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