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Treatment based on sex and/or appearance

19:56 / 08.05.02

despite the fact that anyone whos ever driven with me thinks I should have a mountain of tickets overflowing from my glove box, Ive only gotten one. Ive had more than one person remark that they believe its because Im a woman. usually I write these sorts of claims of favoritism off as the crap that they seem to be, but goddamn I get lucky. and theres the sort of every day thing that some men swear never happens to/for them. in some situations Im annoyed with behavior that seems to imply that Im incapable of handling difficult or cumbersome circumstances because of my gender, but most of the time, I pass it off as politeness or kindness - after all, I hold the door open for people and stop to offer my cell phone to stranded motorists, and I do it without regard to appearance. so why should I meet these acts of kindness with distrust?

so, other than random jerks angling for a piece o' heiny, do you really think this behavior is widespread? or is it an easy catch-all excuse people like to employ to explain the incongruities of human behavior?

The Apple-Picker

20:15 / 08.05.02

Well, what are you talking about here? Are you talking about being pulled over numerous times only to have the officer let you go with a warning? In that case, I would say that you're probably getting off easy because of your cuteness (not just your gender, but appearance and pep--a guess). If you just don't get pulled over--well, then: you're lucky.

06:55 / 09.05.02

and how about this angle - i was at an airport in berlin a few months back, waiting for my friend to meet me, who was really late. another woman was there, her friend was also late. there were only us two in the waiting area. a bloke in the info booth called her over, was really nice to her, and made an announcement over the tannoy for where her friend should come. he ignored me. i eventually went over to him and politely asked him if he'd put a call out for my friend. and boy, did he *not* want to do this.

the other woman was very feminine in appearance. i am a short, fat dyke. i assume he didn't want to help me because he didn't find me attractive.

another story: an ex-flatmate used to have hair down to her arse. she said busses always stopped for her, no matter how long she took getting to them. then she shaved off her hair. and began having to practically jump in the road to get a bus to stop.

appearances do have an effect on the way we treat each other. it's human nature, i think. but it sucks when people only do their job for people they'd like to get in the sack.

08:00 / 09.05.02

appearances do have an effect on the way we treat each other. it's human nature, i think

I completely agree, and, in support of this, I'd like to present the same situation from the opposite angle. Some years ago, I used to have blonde hair down to the small of my back. Whilst I never received any abuse as such, I found myself being ignored publically in favour of - presumably - more 'respectable' looking men. Since having my head shaved I've noticed the trend shift, to the point where most people I deal with in public are now extremely polite. I've also noticed the frequency with which sales assistants now wheel out an oily and well-practised 'sir' in my direction, something that *never* happened when I had long hair.

11:08 / 09.05.02

To be honest, I've never noticed much difference, regardless of how I dress or what haircut I have. Suit or ripped combats, fluffy or shaved, it doesn't really seem to have much effect. Then again it would take quite major effort to change my basic physical appearance.

14:16 / 09.05.02

Various bits of research show you're statistically more likely to be successful at job interviews if you're tall and/or good looking. Presumably that echoes in other areas.

One of the joys of the online life is I have no idea how tall or attractive anybody is and can interact without any consideration of those facts (apart from the hint that shortfatdyke is not a six footer, couple of people who've posted pictures, and I've met a handful of you irl.)

14:19 / 09.05.02

& I definitely used to be followed around shops more, for fear I'd half inch a few gewgaws, when I dressed and wore my hair like in freaky gothy punky modes.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

14:22 / 09.05.02

I look like a soft, unmade bed. Generally speaking, shop assistants, waiters, bartenders, police, and passers-by treat me with a kind of bemused goodwill normally reserved for straying puppies with large ears. If I'm wearing a suit, it looks like something I borrowed. If I wear cool clothes, they look like hand-me-downs.

Only my leather trouser truly love me.

pointless and uncalled for

14:46 / 09.05.02

It's a sad fact that despite any number of sentiments that are commonly expressed, books are still judged by their covers.

Unfortunately there still seems to be some kind of nessecity for this and unless there is some kind of alternative method for immediate judgement made available then I think that I will continue to be perpetrated and is an action that I think that all of us are guilty of, no matter how hard we try not to.

I also agree that judgement based on appearances is human nature and runs deeper than that. In the same way that a bird will instinctively avoid a butterfly that is bright red I beleive that we have a naturally intinct-based tendancy to avoid signals of danger/friction or even something that we aren't going to be interested in. Our interpretation of any potential signal is probably determined by our upbringing and experiences.

I can't condone it but I think that this is a habit that may be too hard for us to break.

15:01 / 09.05.02

I get pulled over sometimes, sometimes I just think Ive got a golden horseshoe embedded in my bum. the last time I got pulled over and let go there was a male passenger and he gave me the whole "if it had been me" bit

theres no doubt that people are treated differently due to appearance - the disparity between the way Im treated in shops when Im dressed in my best work clothes and when Im dressed like me is unquestionable.

but Im wondering if women, in general, get different treatment than men do? not just from someone obviously trying to get into their pants, but in general?

16:11 / 09.05.02

i've found that women get patronised a lot, not taken seriously if they're making a complaint about something. my father gets results where my mother gets ignored. and i've found i have to be an utter bitch to get *anyone* to listen to me if i have a problem with something.

pointless and uncalled for

16:19 / 09.05.02

Sadly a horrible and very pervasive truth.

Having worked in a call centre for the automotive indutry I have come across countless occasions when the opinion that women should accept what they are told without question. Even worse was the fact that it was incredibly difficult for me to do anything about it because it came from people that I had to kiss up to.

16:34 / 09.05.02

when I was at the hospital with my girl and her dad, they spoke mainly to me, asked me most of the questions....when I took him to court for custody (just to have everything in writing) it was readily assumed (even by his own lawyer) that he was a deadbeat dad - hes never been that, but thats the way he was treated nonetheless

pointless and uncalled for

16:42 / 09.05.02

Sadly the problem does go both ways.

And before the theory-hectoring begins the above statement does not, has not, nor ever will be intended to imply that this is in equal amounts and should not be interpreted as such.

pointless and uncalled for

17:37 / 09.05.02

Tom's Blog has further evidence of the flipside of the coin.

17:41 / 09.05.02

Sorry, a little off topic, but I'm surprised these days at how very little I'm treated different now that I have a non-traditional hair colour.

I'd like to throw a little devil's advocacy out there if I may. I think maybe it's instinctual. Male and female animals in the wild fulfill different functions, not based on appearance, but on gender. Could the differing treatment in human beings be a leftover? And in nature it's the attractive creatures that get the mates, so with people, the current perception of attractiveness is going to affect treatment of individuals. Just a thought. I've always thought that the gender inequality problem was a basically instinctual one. I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be overcome, just that that's one facet of it that needs to be considered.

I'm also going to very strongly point out that I do not subscribe to the belief that women and men are genetically or just naturally disinclined towards equality. I think we've overcome that particular instinct. But it's just a thought I had.

Zoom.

The Apple-Picker

18:05 / 09.05.02

Maybe I'm not with it today, Zoom, but that post seems to hold such contradiction that all I can think to say is "BUNK."

"I'm also going to very strongly point out that I do not subscribe to the belief that women and men are genetically or just naturally disinclined towards equality."

Isn't instinct natural? But then you say that you don't subscribe to the belief that women and men are genetically or naturally inclined towards inequality.

Sorry. What you wrote in the meatiest paragraph had the flavor of essentialism, to me, and that always makes me gag.

The Apple-Picker

18:11 / 09.05.02

Again, this could just be me waaaaaay overreacting, but it just pisses me off when people say these things are instinctual. Do you mean that's an instinct that developed through evolution? Evolutionary explanations for social shit never satisfy me. Even the selection of an attractive mate doesn't fly so smoothly with me, because there are those women who are incapable of producing offspring because their genes are XY instead of XX but this condition (forgive me for not recalling what it's named) results in these women representing a physical ideal of femininity (curvy, glowing skin, glossy hair--and so on). These women are attractive, and so theoretically attract the most desirable mates (most capable of reproducing offspring), but the premise that attractive women (symmetrical, "child-bearing hips") make better producers is not a truth.

I just despise essentialism in gender studies and you seem to be making some wimpy half-arsed sentiments in support of essentialism.

18:30 / 09.05.02

i've found that women get patronised a lot, not taken seriously if they're making a complaint about something. my father gets results where my mother gets ignored.

I wonder if part of this may have something to do with the threat of possible violence. Or maybe its just the whole wait till your father gets home/male disiplinarian thing lingering from childhood.

Its funny that you say you have to be "an utter bitch to get *anyone* to listen to you" when you're probably just acting the way a man would have the first time around. I've walked into several conversations between my girlfriend and people that were being rude to her and a simple "Hey, man..." from me gets them to do whatever she had been politely requesting for the last five minutes. It sucks and pisses me off to no end but what to do?

My girlfriend also says I use my "man voice" when dealing with things I don't like. I don't do it on purpose and didn't even realise it until she pointed it out but I have a totally different voice I use when trying to get my way with strangers.

18:32 / 09.05.02

The most important part of my post:
"I'd like to throw a little devil's advocacy out there if I may"

My feeling is that human beings have evolved past the need for instinct.

On the other hand:

"Evolutionary explanations for social shit never satisfy me"

Maybe in the case of humans, but how do you account for other creatures, whose behaviour, social or otherwise, is completely dictated by instinct?

Gimme a definition of "essentialism" so I can understand what you're saying I'm saying.

Zoom.

18:36 / 09.05.02

I wouldnt totally toss out instinct - but I think it tends more towards impulse rather than any actual ingrained, evolutionary drive.

I hate when people blame the media for every little thing, but I think society - and media certainly plays a very large part of our perceptions. we are raised with certain ideas - from the people around us, the things that we entertain ourselves with, the things we learn - that carry on with us and are often infused into our desires (our motives?) with no real conscious assessment

Im not saying that we are mindlessly following set ideals – only, say, that my predilection for yearning to adopt every stray kitten I see has much less to do with my logical reasoning of the practicality of the thing as it does with something else

18:38 / 09.05.02

bio - I have the voice of a 15 year old and a face thats not much older. another great reason to be more than a bit aggressive!

The Apple-Picker

19:00 / 09.05.02

From Webster Online, since I have no other resources at the read--"2 : a philosophical theory ascribing ultimate reality to essence embodied in a thing perceptible to the senses."

I fear that I'm venturing into head shop territory here, but essentialism, as far as I understand it and as far as it's been explained to me, can be exemplified in thinking female = woman = caretaker, more inclined to the arts, emotional, submissive, and also that male = man = breadwinner, more inclined to the sciences, logical, dominating. There is the idea that the essence of a man that makes him these things.

And so, how I interpreted your post was that there is something essential about man and something essential about woman wrapped up in their respective instincts that can explain gender inequality.