BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Time Travel

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Seth
15:56 / 08.05.02
I've heard a couple of accounts (related to me second or third hand), a few theoretical frameworks or methodologies that support the possibility, and some ideas on ways to change history on a personal level as an exercise in ego modification. I can’t remember seeing a thread on this in The Magick... wanna brainstorm?
 
 
Bear
16:01 / 08.05.02
I'm about to go home, but I'll be interested on seeing what people come up with when I login tomorrow.

Would NLP exercises class as time travel, you know when you play out a scene from your past and change it to make a difference in your present life. I guess it does to a certain degree but I don't think that's what your really getting at expressionless.
 
 
captain piss
16:33 / 08.05.02
Continuing my tradition of quoting books I've read but bringing v little personal experience to the table:
There's some stuff in Peter Carrol's Psybermagick about 'retroactive enchantment' whereby it's proposed that you can actually go back and change something in the past, in actuality. So if you lose your keys, strongly visualise yourself putting them under the sofa earlier on that day, then, when gnostically-charged (angry at yourself for being such a twat etc) - run over to the sofa and find the keys!
Certainly a possibility I'm inclined to be skeptical about. But still, I'm curious...
(I've tried this, I might add, but still putting more faith in the flux capacitor option)
 
 
cusm
16:52 / 08.05.02
I've used that trick, only I run it through a probability field, quantum style. If the position of the keys is unknown by anyone, then their actual position could in theory be anywhere. Thus, they exist within a probability field. So, if you can create a plausable enough reality that they are inside the sofa, the probablilty field will collapse and you'll find them there. This sort of thing allows for retroactive enchantment as a means to collapse the proability field, which must be able to extend far enough into the past to allow for the original disappearance of the keys. The more you try to work with reality, the more success you'll have in rewriting it
 
 
Rev. Wright
17:42 / 08.05.02
Time travel.
I suppose there are two occassions worth mentioning that I suppose relate, but not necessarily in teh same sense as 'retroactive enchantment'
The first relates to an amazing experience I had at a little impromptu forest/fire gathering. I've mentioned this night in another thread, regarding external manifestations of energy/magick. Later that same night I was standing in a trance with malcolm also standing. As I let go of my conscious mind my eyes closed and I found my field of visualisation was filled with a composite reality. I was standing in what I can only describe as a craft/saucer made from a mother of pearl like substance. Malcolm was standing there also in the same spot as when my eyes were open. As I moved my head, it was a though I was wearing VR goggles, I could look into the enviroment around me, seeing. Something occured, like a conscious jump and the next thing I remenber is standing in the same forest, but in prehistoric times. The nature of the fauna had changed and it was daylight. It took me some time to realise, but my eyes were still shut, and this was a totally engrossing experience. I distinctly remember taking deep breathes and telling Malcolm about how it tasted and felt different. I can't remember how this experience ended, although I didn't walk about, I was there for at least 15 mins.

The second experience was as series of visions, which, again, I'm sure I have mentioned before. They cover a pyramid, flying craft, Thoth thing, which I won't go into here. ('Phew', they go) Anyways teh first vision was like seeing events take place in a rather engaging film, the latest was very similar to the experience I mentioned first. Working with a Medium, I trance out, into a pre-arranged/affirmed continuation of the vision. However organised these things are I'm constantly suprised with the intensity and continuity. At this time i find myself much more involved within the vision, rowing down a river, looking up at the still craft and then flying in the air. Classic Medicine law trance material, Adventures in The Spirit Realm.
Its the historical tip that may made bring it up here.

Was I experiencing enough sense experience to say I was a Time Traveller?
 
 
Seth
17:54 / 08.05.02
I've had similar experiences when dreaming - the surroundings created in an amazing level of period detail, but like an idealised version. Of course, it's debatable whether it's actual period detail, my brain fooling me that it's period detail, or exactly how much power my brain has to recreate things on that level of detail. I consider all of that to be a moot point: what matters is the effect on me, the effect on my external world and whether the outcome was of use.

The dreams I've had in other time periods were very helpful in showing me which particular area of semiotics I was working with in interpretation. I find the dream will speak through archetypes the more basic the tech level becomes. It may just be my expectations, but some part of me expects the language of the dream to be more direct but of a greater magnitude. However, there have been no discernable effects to make me believe that the dream settings constituted some kind of time travel, although I wouldn't be adverse to the possibility.
 
 
Papess
19:00 / 08.05.02
How about Recapitulation?

I read about it in the Castaneda books, I cannot remember which one. I think the "Power of Silence" or "Tales of POwer". Tasha Abelar also wrote a book called "The Sorcerer's Crossing". She gives her account of recapitulation and almost exact instructions.

Don Juan and his cohorts explain the recapitulation method of erasing your past by using a breathing technique in suspended areas such as a hammock or treehouse. The suspension is done to remove the person from the "Lines of the World".

This may not be time travel exactly, but there is something to this method that seems to defy time/space as we agree upon.

~May Tricks
 
 
Warewullf
20:09 / 08.05.02
The only magick-related time travel I know of the one King Mob used in The Invisibles. He traveled a spider's web to the past. I think this notion came from Michael Bertraux's (sp?) Voudoun Gnostic Workbook.

(Sadly, I've never read it but I heard he has a new version coming out.)
 
 
captain piss
21:46 / 08.05.02
Yes, that's something to do with Bertiaux's church, which sounds like an intriguing marriage of voodoo and catholicism. One of the principal techniques is apparently to transform your consciousness into an 'astral tarantula'.
There's more about it at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/8522/bertiaux.html
It's an interesting interview but doesn't shed much light on the time travel side of things, alas.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
21:52 / 08.05.02
Sadly, I've never read [the Voudun Gnostic Workbook) but I heard he has a new version coming out.

Seriously? Any idea when?
 
 
Seth
21:54 / 09.05.02
Ok. I’d definitely be interested in hearing more about recapitulation if you’ve had a chance to delve into your Castaneda, May. I’m not sure if I want to get into his stuff myself (heard very mixed reports), but there’s “The Toltec Path of Recapitulation” by Victor Sanchez that seems to cover similar ground. Anyone read it, or similar? Anyone up for pointing me towards some decent online resources?

I’d also be very interested to hear more about the Vodoun methods - I tried a quick Google search and didn’t come up with anything of significance, but I’ll try harder over the weekend (some of the stuff that did turn up seemed to be leading onto the 6th and 7th Books of Moses - another subject I know sod all about. If anyone can help me there....). One related Bertiaux link can be found here, and it has lots of really interesting info that I’d love to research more. The only copies of the “Voudoun Gnostic Workbook” I found were astronomically expensive (reminded me of trying to track down a copy of “Zaireeka” - not pleasant, took up several months of my life, damned if I can organise a party where everyone brings a decent stereo... sorry, am I ranting?). Any of his stuff reprinted on the net?

As you can probably tell, I’m interested in experimenting with some of this stuff myself (however, since I’m not going to go into my motives or objectives online, we’ll have to limit the mandate of this thread to a discussion around the issue). I figure it’d be a good chance to see if we can break some interesting new ground, as well as collate what everyone knows/has experienced. Although the line from the Invisibles keeps cropping up in my head... “What would a time traveller look like to someone within time” - whatever the quote actually was (I think Takashi says it in Volume 2). I’ve got a nagging suspicion that a some point I’m going to get it to work, and when I do, it’ll explain a number of odd dream experiences I’ve had.
 
 
Papess
03:36 / 10.05.02
Ok. I’d definitely be interested in hearing more about recapitulation if you’ve had a chance to delve into your Castaneda, May. I’m not sure if I want to get into his stuff myself (heard very mixed reports), but there’s “The Toltec Path of Recapitulation” by Victor Sanchez that seems to cover similar ground. Anyone read it, or similar? Anyone up for pointing me towards some decent onlanine resources? ~ expressionless

Understandable, Casteneda is an idiot. While reading the books though, I would pay attention to Don Juan's words only!. I do highly recommend them. However, Castenada was stupid student at best. Credit can be given to the work he has done by getting this information published. Thus, authors like Victor Sanchez have based their work on Castenada without his slight credibility.

So, the art of Recapitulation is the ability to erase the past from our mind (and everyone else's mind if we are strong enough)

Okay, I am VERY, VERY, Tired...I have to sleep

Here is one online resource... http://www.castaneda.com/

OOOh dear, I hope this works! I am too tired now

~May T
 
 
Papess
11:05 / 10.05.02
expressionless, the book that I mentioned from Taisha Abelar (this is the correct spelling of her name...apologies for my previous spelling) called "The Sorcerer's Crossing" is very detailed about recapitulation. It reads better than Castenada too. (I guess I should have said, he was an idiot).

I will post more when I have some more time. bfn

~May
 
 
ciarconn
12:04 / 10.05.02
If it's worth anything, I was in a workshop with Vicdtor Sanchez before he was famous (at least 15 years ago), and he was good and knew what he was doing.

On reacapitulation, it odes not have anything to do with time travel. Basically it's a practice that allows you to "untell" your personal history, to pick up the pieces of energy you left around in your emotiuonal interactions with others. I have used it (though not fully) and I have recomended it to people who have gone through heavy emotional experiences, and it has had good results (depending of the willing of the person). I do not recall in which book Castaneda relates the practice, will check it out later (I'm at work, designing an exam I'll aply in 20 minutes)
 
 
Seth
16:24 / 10.05.02
May: Cheers for the link. I'll investigate the link and the book you mentioned over the weekend.

ciarconn: it's still relevant enough to the thread, I guess, and certainly for what I'm looking into. Cheers for the extra info.
 
 
Papess
15:19 / 11.05.02
You are welcome expressionless.

I guess recapitulation is not exactly time travel but, it does propose a way of changing personal history. I have always thought it would be a helpful method for those in need of reclaiming their energy from difficult past issues. Glad to hear that you are suggesting this effective method to those who need it, ciarconn.

As far as Victor Sanchez goes, I have only flipped through his work. I remember I really liked what I read but I do not know too much more about his work. With ciarconn's recommendation, I am interested to know more about him and his books. Thanks!

In recapitulation, one has to picture the event that they are going to recapitulate in as much detail as possible. Then a sweeping breath is used to take back the energy. One keeps doing this until they feel the power is restored to them. Thus, the event is changed and in some cases erased, if done well.

This does simplify it a bit. However, the use of physical suspension and crystals between each finger, can heighten this experience to the point where one actually goes to the event in time/space. This is when the most effective work can be done. It will take some practice for this result but, with most things in magick, (or anything for that matter) I find practice is essential.

~May
 
 
Warewullf
23:18 / 11.05.02
Johnny: No idea when it'll be out. Check Bertiaux Homepage (http://www.techniciansofthesacred.com/) for updates.
 
 
Sebastian
17:48 / 12.05.02
For me, the only legitimate time travel would be as King Mob's: go to the past, meet someone (Judith), come back to the present, meet again Judith and have her acknowledge she met you in the past just as lively and fresh as you are today.

Interestingly, lets say that Y meets X in the present. Now, in the line of retroactive enchantment and quantum mechanics as I read above, there exists a probability field of an experience in which Y and X have met in the past during Y's time traveling. I believe that a very skillfull hypnotist (Y) could drive a highly suggestible and complying individual (X) -the same can be said as "given a strongly empathic relationship between Y and X"- to "remember" having met Y at some point of his past, and actually have all, or at least some, of X's relevant memories arranged in line with this.

[Therapy related babblings of my own: In a sense, or "in essence", this is what occurs at emotional levels in some approaches of psychotherapy and hypnotherapy, where "memories" or "perceptions of the past" become rearranged, although the consensual component is left untouched for the sake of sanity, and beloved purring Kitty still dies crunched under the wheels of the truck -after all, hypnotherapy and psychotherpay are not time-miracle-travelling therapy. In other less desired therapeutic arenas, we know that subjects, either through hypnotic trance, drugs, or whatever you want to call the "process", have also remembered full blown events of ritual abuse, abductions, rapes, and other delights, that although there was no consensual evidence that they ever occured, they powerfully get to form part of their "past life" as "real" events.][Back to X and Y]

Now, inversely, lets say that X and Y meet in the present. X claims that he met Y in the past, just as Y appears now in the present, during Y's time travelling, although Y says he never time travelled and has never before met X. Again, "given a strongly empathic relationship between Y and X", X suggests/proposes/persuades/compells/ Y to time travel to the past. Y time-travels and meets young-X in the past, comes back to the present with the memory of the whole thing, and agrees with X on the exact events of the past when they met.

I think this could happen also, and I really do not give a hell as to discuss if it is hallucination, hypnosis, time travelling or brain washing, but I definitely go for the consensual agreement between X and Y regarding what EXACTLY happened and was said in the past, just as King Mob's and Judith's story.

Wanna try?



PS. For the literary prone magi, I have just remembered a short story by JL Borges in which he seats on a bench by a riverside in the US and suddenly notices that he himself is sitting younger by his side on the same bench, but in front of an european river, while young Borges was living decades back in Switzerland. They discuss a great deal of what is going to happen to each other, and then they say good-bye.
 
 
lentil
11:05 / 15.05.02
um... I'll try to find something to back this up, but I distinctly remember hearing, from more than one source (one being Matthew Collings on his "Hello Culture" series last year) that Don Juan is actually an invention of Castaneda, and never really existed.
 
 
ciarconn
12:49 / 15.05.02
As an ex-castanedian with a cynic view of Castaneda's works there.s something I can tell you: some of his techniques work. There was an article (In The twelve constellations in the girdle of Gaia, if I remember well) which explained how most of the original (2 or 3) books by Castaneda were copied from another anthropologists works who worked with a medicine man from Nayaritg, Mexico.
Knowing what kind of bastard Castaneda was, I wouldn't be surprised this is true.
But the things I experienced while following his practices make it all worthy
 
 
Sebastian
14:50 / 15.05.02
Okay pals, we started talking about time-travel and now wir all discussin' the Castaneda man and Don Juan. I am opening a thread about Castaneda that I hope it will be like a surgery room. I am making the first incission. Lets just not make it an autopsy.
 
 
ciarconn
21:46 / 15.05.02
Yeah, you're right. Returning to the original theme of the thread, there are some techniques in neurolinguistic programing that work on the original intention. You get on a superficial tgrance, and relive an experience, then you visualize it like you consider it should have been, or talk with (the image) of the person with whom you have something pending. I simplified the process, but the idea is there.
 
 
Sebastian
17:20 / 16.05.02
Yes Ciarconn, your simplification is also the basis of the NLP derived time-line therapy, or so I seem to recall.

The separating line with time-travel is in my opinion that in therapy the physical person to whom you "imagine" talking to does not recall having that conversation, although she may acknowledge that you have changed your feelings to the matter discussed, after the time-line therapy. But her "consensual" memories of the event remain the same.

As I said above, time-travel for me needs to have two people agreeing on the consensual past/future events during the time-travel ("Its you! I met you 25 years ago and you are exactly the same!"), not just one "changing the memory" of what happened, because this creates a mismatch between consensual agreements.

Now, big -BIG- question. Has anybody heard, seen or read reports of legitimate time-travel beyond the boundaries of sci-fi novels and movies?
 
 
ciarconn
22:14 / 16.05.02
Wll, NLP is a psichological system, not a magickal one (let me tell you that more than once I have been tempted to try to mix NLP with chaos magick or Castanedian techniques), it work with the subjective.
"The map is not the territory", they say.

The nearest thing to time travel I can think comes from another questioned image: Lobsang Rampa
I think he tells of time travel with his astgral self, which obviously limits the possibilities of interaction with the physical past. Also related to the famed akashic records.
 
 
Papess
17:06 / 17.05.02
Just wondering...Do you think one could use portals for time travel?

~May
 
 
Sebastian
18:47 / 17.05.02
I have the books by Rampa. I think the weirdest thing I read there was about him reincarnating in the body of an English man, from which I think he lived and wrote the books. I have to go back to them, because when I read them first I found them so extremely fairy and honest that I couldn't stand them.

About portals, yes, but do you mean any specific portal? I mean, a geographical one? Or just "the portals within your own mind"?
 
 
ciarconn
01:37 / 18.05.02
On Lobsang Rampa, yeahm he sounds pretty "jalado" as we say in Mexico, almost unbelievable. The same myth is on the daoist religion, one of their eight saints had to "change bodies" with a drunken man because his original was eaten by a tiger. He was "in" in the sixties and seventies, and divulgated tibetan esoterism, or at least that's what he said.

On phisical time travel and portals, I had imagined the possibility of going to an old place (like the pyramids in Egypt) adn tryin to synchronize perceptual modes with the "old" mode, thus going out of "present" mode: the ruins would be a portal into the perceptions of the people who lived there.
If this worked, it would show that the space-time lattice depends from the intent/attention/conscience/consense of the social majority.
 
 
Seth
10:16 / 18.05.02
Anyone want to try an experiment?
 
 
Rev. Wright
17:21 / 18.05.02
Only if it involves spinny flashing discs, goats entrails and large quantities of lab tested mind stupifying drugs, ok.
 
 
Seth
08:05 / 19.05.02
That sounds more like a typical good night out
 
 
Sebastian
11:33 / 22.05.02
Ciarconn, I agree with your point about using ruins for tying into awareness of other times. I have also speculated that knowing the language or at least the basic phonemes and words of that people at that time would facilitate adjusting perception, not to speak if you can get to think in that particular language.

This does not mean that you have to go to a course of phonetics to time travel. I just postulate it would be easier to glue your awareness at your destination.

Alternatively, do you think rocks that are archeological findings would also resonate with a particular period of time and awareness?
 
 
ciarconn
11:55 / 22.05.02
Yes, I agree, leaarning the language would help to synch on with another culture, as would do learning all cultural aspects (even if it´s how we think they thought)

On rocks or other achaeological findings: they would as useful as they were intent/atention foci (and "postive" atention better than "negative" atention). A religious object would work better than an everyday use object.
 
 
Logos
14:27 / 22.05.02
Declan Mccullogh's Politechbot.com mailing list included an item on some weird spam that's been floating around the net. It seemed to be of interest to this thread, so I'm including it here:
{spam}
_____________________________________________________
From: ()
Subject: Time Travelers PLEASE HELP!! 6773
Status:

If you are a time traveler or alien and or in procession of alien
or government technology I need your help! My case is truly
genuine! I seek to work with someone who is of a kind nature,
someone I can call my savior as well as a friend.

My life has been severely tampered with and cursed by evil beings!!
I have suffered tremendously and am now dying!

I need to be able to:

Travel back in time.

Rewind my life including my age back to 4.
I am in great danger and need this immediately!
I want to work with you in any way possible.

I am aware of two types of time travel one in physical form and
the other in energy form where a snapshot of your brain is taken using
either the dimensional warp or the brain snapshot device and then sends your
consciousness back through time to part with your younger self. I'm almost
certain the dimensional warp would be the safest and best
solution. Please explain how safe and what your method involves.

I have a time machine now, but it has limited abilities and is
useless without a vortex. If you can provide information on how to create
vortex generator or where I can get some of the blue or red glowing moon
crystals this would also be helpful. I am however concerned with the high
level of
radiation these crystals give off, if you could provide a shielding this
would be
helpful. I believe the vortex would have to be east-west polarized,
North-south polarized vortexes are used for cross-dimensional time
travel only. Also, I know about the three dimension 4 bit (CODE) our
universe is written in. If you are one of the very few beings who can edit
this code, or know the passwords which can be spoken over a vortex, please
reply!

If you have this technology and can help me please
send me a (SEPARATE) email to: powerhouse213@aol.com

Thanks

13900
___________________________
{/spam}

Anybody recognize these terms or methods, or is this guy off on his/her/its own?
 
 
ciarconn
22:57 / 22.05.02
"Anybody recognize these terms or methods, or is this guy off on his/her/its own? "

I just read it to my wife in loud voice, and the most interesting thing is that she said she had the same emotional response she has with the typical chain mails (I need a transplant...) so it probably has the same memetical structure (which might point it to be constructed).
The vortex refferences remind me of The chronomancer's handbook, for Dungeons and Dragons.
The 3D 4bit code sounds more interesting, though.
The idea of the " Operating system" of the reality has been repeated in many places (Even the Invisibles and Planetary). The way he calls it sounds either interesting or funny.

Glowing moon crystals??!! Gee.
 
 
ciarconn
22:58 / 22.05.02
Or perhaps it's just the men in black, setting up a trap to catch ilegal time travelers and aliens
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply