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The Secret History (with spoilers inside!)

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:41 / 07.05.02
This was mentioned by Wembley elsewhere, and as Donna Tartt seems finally to be gearing up to deliver her second novel, I thought it might be an appropriate time...

What do people think of the Secret History?
 
 
Bill Posters
11:52 / 07.05.02
I've read it more often than any other book.

And I think you're Henry.
 
 
Persephone
12:21 / 07.05.02
I really loved it upon first reading, but it did not hold up altogether for multiple reads. I'd be interested in what you think about the studying-Greek milieu she draws. Since I know nothing about studying Greek or East Coast private colleges, I was completely sucked in; it's probably due to this book that I see *you* as such a romantic figure. I do know about medical school and Southern California, and those parts looked very flat from where I am standing.
 
 
priya narma
12:27 / 07.05.02
Read it back in college (several years ago) and liked it a lot. i've thought of picking it up again recently to give it another run through to see if my tastes have changed at all. at the time of the first read through, college in austin seemed so lame in comparison to ivy covered brick and 'tradition' in the east. of course, now that i've been in the east awhile i guess i find the whole private college thing a little more fanciful that it really is. i liked the book well enough, though and would definitely pick up another of DT's offerings. perhaps we should put the secret history in the book personals and see if anyone wants to read/discuss...?
 
 
Cherry Bomb
13:06 / 07.05.02
I thought it was pretty clever at the time, but I read it about 6 years ago; I'd have to give it another go I think. I thought the concept of what happens after Dionysian ritual is pretty cool. Unfortunately I have some trouble removing a personal lens from my interpretation of the book (it's a long strange story).
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
15:13 / 07.05.02
That book made the rounds very quickly in my first year of university (I read it at five in the morning while sitting on top of the residence dryer. Some drunken person had spilled beer all over my bed and my friend's bed, and I was washing them both), and I have read it again since. It's not always good on the multiple read, but it retains enough of its fascination. I love it because in some ways it's kind of pulpy, and in others it really does make me think about an awful lot of neat concepts.

My friends also tried to convince me it wasn't healthy to find Henry Winter the most attractive character in the book (a lot of them dug Francis, the ineffectual thing), but I honestly couldn't have seen it any other way. Even now, if I'm walking on Bloor Street or peoplewatching while having a coffee, and I see a tall young man with broad shoulders, glasses, a long coat, dark hair, and a slightly cruel look to his face, I think of Henry Winter and find myself in love at first sight.
 
 
Persephone
17:03 / 07.05.02
You're comparatively healthier than I am, wembley... I was in love with Charles. Sheesh, bag me up and cart me away.

You know what I think is neat --sorry, lame word-- about this book is that it's in a way about the fascination of looking in --that's Richard's relation to the others, right? And that's the relation of the reader to the book. In a sense the ideal reader is a person who is most like Richard. (Odd thing about him, I continue not to be convinced that that's his name.)
 
 
johnnymonolith
17:35 / 07.05.02
I haven't thought about this book in AGES! I read it 7 years ago(wow!) during two VERY hot summer days&nights and I liked it a lot at the time. Very fascinating stuff. Especially the bits where they fall into a trance were very interesting as they seem to be a combination of various academic stuff on Bacchanalia.

However,it's true that it does not hold up to repeated readings but still you can't beat its pseudointellectual/pseudopulp feel (delete as appropriate). It was very well paced and the characters are quirky enough to be Classicists(believe me, I studied Classics for 4 fucking years, i've met more than a few) so yes, it did ring true most of the time. I was not very sure about the Ivy League setting,though; it felt more like a cross of Ivy League and mad scientists' lab.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:00 / 12.09.02
Can't quite believe I haven't read this yet, but have made a start and am enjoying it very much - though I can't quite shake the feeling that Dreadful Things will happen and that in this case it probably won't come out all right in the end...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:12 / 12.09.02
It may be profitable to think of it as an American inversion of Gaudy Night...
 
 
Bill Posters
14:18 / 12.09.02
the characters are quirky enough to be Classicists (believe me, I studied Classics for 4 fucking years i've met more than a few)

Careful... you may not have got as far from quirky Classicists as you think, heh heh heh...
 
 
Bill Posters
14:28 / 12.09.02
Oh and one thing that's always bugged me is when exactly d'ya think the book is meant to be set? I always found that side of it confusing, but it may have just been me.
 
 
Persephone
14:54 / 12.09.02
heh heh heh...

LOOK OUT! BEHIND YOU!!

I think the book is set vaguely in "the present" ...this was easier to get when the book had just come out, since you were there. It has an end-of-the-eighties feel to me --i.e., the characters are anachronisms in relation to the 80s, but now they are also anachronisms because they are from the 80s.
 
 
The Strobe
17:21 / 12.09.02
I rather liked it, though it's quite a while since I read it. Enjoyable in a page-turning sense; I think if I re-read it now (that I'm older) I'd find the pseudo-ness of its intellect a bit more obvious. It's good fun though, and it is relatively intellectual - but not compared to, well, a lot of what's classed as high literature, or what we're told will become canon one day.

Do enjoy. It's a marvellous piece of plotting, if nothing else.
 
 
Logos
23:43 / 12.09.02
I thought it was a pretty accurate description of a small liberal arts college, much like the one I went to. No one ever shoved off a cliff by people looking 'for new ferns', though.
 
 
The Strobe
08:15 / 13.09.02
Is this thread meant to be spoiler free or not? The topic could do with changing if so...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:19 / 13.09.02
I don't think it's meant to be spoiler-free (although I will be extremely peeved if anyone gives away the end before I've finished it). I'll add spoilers to the topic title...
 
 
Bill Posters
12:12 / 13.09.02
I don't think we've spoilt anything much yet. The whole thing is more about psychology than plot to me, so 'what happens' in the end is less relevant than, well, the psychological dimension. Which you couldn't really spoil, as such.
 
 
Mazarine
01:39 / 14.09.02
I adored that book. It was one of those that my sister 'discovered' and then got passed round my entire family. It's been a long while since I've read it.

Bill Posters- thank you. I'd been trying to put my finger on it forever, and it's finally sorted out for me.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:09 / 20.01.03
I felt the need to briefly resurrect this for two specific reasons, the first is the comment that Persephone made about Richard's name, as I read the book I too am convinced that he is not called Richard at all. Last night I was soaking the words in and paying attention to the stilted way that his name is constantly presented and quietly nodding to myself - it doesn't fit with the Henry's, Julian's, Charles', while it is a classic name there seems to be a problem with it, actually I suspect that Richard, as the latecomer, should have a modern name.

The second reason- Haus everytime Henry appears I see you, I'm sorry, I know (or at least hope) you're not a murderous bastard but it is hysterically funny and I'm blaming Bill entirely. It's particularly annoying because I need to apply other people's faces to characters now, I've got a handle on Bunny but the others have such elusive features!
 
 
rakehell
21:14 / 20.01.03
I just finished this book and wasn't going to post in this thread but someone else bumped it so I guess I have to.

The worst thing about the book was that I didn't read it ~10 years ago. At 17 this book would have ruled my world and I would have carried it with me everywhere suspended on a ribbon. Now it's just a really good book.

I definitely agree with BP that it's the "psychological dimension" which is more relevant than simply what happens. I sometimes found it hard to relate to the way Richard acted in or reacted to situations, but when I felt his attraction to the other characters, his want to belong, well the book made a lot more sense.

I think that Julian's character is slightly ill defined because at the end, when Richard describes him as a force and a guiding light, I really didn't get that feeling at all. That could just be one of the things with which I was out of line with the characters.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:54 / 30.01.03
Here I am again. This isn't particularly concise but I'll post it anyway because I came away from this (finally) and found that I'd enjoyed it but really disliked it.

Just quickly - I have now decided that Richard is Richard's real name and Henry is quite remarkably different from Haus. Let me detail my current thoughts -

The novel was terribly divided and the first part held more thrall for me. It weaves a spell that I suspect Tartt sets out to destroy in the second part of the book but not quite as cleverly as she manufactures it. The observation of Henry's death was thoroughly pleasing and in fact all of the major characters were quite wonderfully detailed yet I disliked the split between their presence. So many of the characters were only really present in the second half of the novel and I felt that the story both lost and gained because of this. It lost that introverted atmosphere that seems to encompass Richard and I would have preferred the book to end halfway through in order to maintain it but I suppose it gained Charles, Francis and Camilla.

Julian really didn't strike a note with me and he's described as this incredibly important figure for Richard. I wasn't sure if the reader was meant to see how little he truly meant or if it was a genuine flaw in the story? By the end of The Secret History I really despised the characters, all of them, but particularly Richard and Camilla who were just so... sorry I just can't find the word.
 
 
Bill Posters
14:07 / 31.01.03
Eenteresting, I 'got' Julian okay and have had some splendid discussions about whether he was well-meaning or a nasty, nasty fraud of a man.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:19 / 31.01.03
Erm, but he's meant to be this incredibly influential figure in Richard's life and he hardly figures, he's as background as Cloke. His character may come across but his influence on the narrator didn't.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
19:08 / 31.01.03
Read this fairly recently, and I have to echo what Mr. Posters said about not knowing when it took place - it's worse than that, actually, because it's not set "in the present," as several historic events are mentioned as happening contemporaneously (the moon landing - Richard has to inform the other students that man has walked on the moon - and references to anti-Arab hysteria surround the first Gulf war - Saddam Hussein is called out by name) that couldn't possibly have happened during the same collegiate year of anyone. Unless an incredibly clever Tartt meant for the beginning of the school year to somehow mirror school life during the '60s and then progress through the decades in the course of the school year, ending in the 90s....but that's just stupid.
 
 
The Strobe
09:16 / 01.02.03
Hmn. I don't have my copy here, Anna, but I do know what you mean: the characterisation works retrospectively; stuff that happens in Part II informs your understanding of Part I. Part I is probably the more interesting half, II is like watching the bit in any episode of Columbo where you see the murderer do it. It's very hard to tear oneself away from the second part, though; it forces one on to the end.

You're right that most of the characters are relatively dislikable. There was this point when I read it where I realised that quite a few of them were either scumbags or just bad people, but it's a real disappointment when you realise quite how shit they all are. Also: though I was, I think, 16 or so when I read it, the whole Charles/Camilla incest thing really didn't hang together at all well. I'm really keen to reread this at some point, simply because I remember loving it despite all this rather obvious flaws that I'd agree with anybody about. It's a very... seductive book, if that is the right word. (The whole thing with forgetting-Richard's-name is spot-on).

I, worryingly, have been taught by someone who I cannot help but picture every time I see Julian. Similar methods, similar eccentricity, but with a slightly saner class.
 
 
Jub
21:35 / 26.02.03
Riiiight. I've just finished this along with a few wines and I'm reading to spout. Firstly. Bill Posters. Whilst I see what you mean about the whole psychological dimension thing, this wouldn't be the case without things occuring. Events happening, and the ambiguity caused by a 1st person prose gives the sotry its structure even admitting as Anna points out that Richard's point of view in the first part seems somehow highjacked by the characterisation in the second.

Even this though is no great shakes. Events happening how they did saw these cold calculating strage beings suddenly cast in a more human light, even though they are still quite uptight. (eg, Camilla being miffed after Richard asks her to leave his room following certain revelations by Francis).

And what about Richard and Camilla, Anna? What's so bad about them? I think they're great, and from the protagonist's view point, this was more or less alove story between him and Camille. Never does he cast her in a negative light without also giving her some re-deeming quality, and this is after the lovely sophie and mona etc.

I agree with Rakehell's conclusion of Julian. Richard's analysis seemed far too overbearingly... fond, to be considered accurate from what had been said about him previously, but perhaps this is over-compensation for henry's sake which I'm coming to.

Todd - the apparent disparity between the moon landing and the Sadam thing is surely not a mistake, and I don't think Tartt wouyld try and be *that* clever by doing as you mooted across the generations. So why then? I'm stumped as you were. The only thing I can think is that she used the moon landing as Richard's hyperbole to describe henry, but it seems a little odd.

Paleface - your uncomfort with the incest aspect is interesting given that I thought it was integral to the charaterisation of the group as a whole. From the outset it was clear that the "twins" - although there was no real evidence for them being such, as evinced by the shrewd FBI - were carrying on together - but I thought this added a whole dimension to the group insofar as it made the end (implausible) relationship between camilla and henry more feasible.

Throughout the book, both Tartt and Richard, and all the characters for that matter, make Camilla seem saintly and yet sexual to boot. The oddly warm enormity of her character strikes me as a plot device for Henry to be excused his misgivings. Without her, Henry's final acts seem silly and poorly done. She's the reason that he is allowed to end the book so resolutely.

In my reading of the book, it seems that Henry is not dead, but seeing as how no-one else has posited this idea, perhaps it is nothing more than a drunken bagatelle. Francis and Richard talk about seeing him, he lived for 12 hours after shooting himself (as if, as richard notes, he wanted to carry on). Only Francis went to his funeral (allegedly). Most of all though, the reason Camilla doesn't want to marry Richard at the end is not because she doesn't love him, but because she loves Henry. Present tense. Cf Richards past.

Shit, maybe I'm going off on a tangent, or maybe I'm simply too drunk. Night all. Sleep well.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:30 / 26.02.03
Well I think the point is that the moon landing, something that happened a number of years ago and remains a defining moment in recent history, was never taken on board by the characters. It's not that it necessarily happened in their lifetime but everyone knows about it and they don't. Henry is sheltered from the recent past, he knows a lot about the ancient greeks but not about 1969, so it's a reference to the ignorance of these people and not to what is happening at that specific moment.

Richard and Camilla. Hmm... I dislike Richard because he shelters himself, notices the facade of those around him, fails to recognise the events that could inform him of the lives his 'friends' lead (yes, the moon landing moment is a perfect example). Camilla really rubbed me up the wrong way- I'm still not sure why. Does she bend too much to everyone else? Maybe it's her lack of control over her own life. Primarily Charles appears to control her, then it seems to be Henry, then her sick relative and let's not go in to Julian's untold influence over her. Actually the thing that I truly disliked about all of the characters was their utter lack of independence and I would hasten to add that by the end of the book Henry was very much an example of this.

I don't think the incest was at all necessary to the story. It could easily have thrown it out of the window, replace it with Charles' brotherly jealousy over Camilla's purity and you have the same reaction. Actually I felt it spoiled Charles who seemed so very normal in comparison to the other characters, better to have given him a likely background, one that we could identify with a little but I think the point was to alienate us from him. If we had a real identification with any character our relationship with the book would have changed the outcome. Tartt wants to disassociate us from this world, leave us a little disgusted but drawn in, the very end seems to screw this up actually. I'm still a little unhappy that the last few chapters existed.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:27 / 29.02.08
Have just finished this. Jolly good. At the moment I particularly riff on the part where, I think, Henry, is talking aobut Bunny - when Bunny already Knows Too Much - and says: 'I just like to know where he goes' in a bizarrely familial way, as if he's Bunny's mother.
 
 
The Idol Rich
15:29 / 29.02.08
Wow, very long time since I read this and reading the thread I can hardly remember any of the characters although Henry seems to conjure up an image (possibly due to someone helpfully putting in a description). Maybe I should read it again but I very much enjoyed it as a youngster and I read her other book (The Little Friend I think it was called) much more recently and I really did not enjoy that one bit. Has anyone else read that, what did they thing? Does the fact that I didn't like it mean that I won't get anything from re-reading TSH or are they a totally different kettle of fish?
 
  
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