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Dutch Far Right Leader Assassinated

 
 
Shortfatdyke
17:39 / 06.05.02
pim fortuyn was shot dead today. i saw an interview with him a few days ago when he was talking about immigration - although he refused to be compared with le pen. i don't know a great deal about him (apart from the fact that he was openly gay and was expected to do very well in the forthcoming election in the netherlands). but is this the way forward? do we not rely on keeping the right out via the ballot box? we've discussed violence here before - with the general consensus being against it, but is the 'rise of the right' in mainland europe so serious it requires this kind of response?
 
 
Ganesh
17:58 / 06.05.02
Are you sure he's dead? MSN seems to be saying he's merely "very seriously wounded" but alive. Guess it's academic, really.

He was/is interesting in that he was combining a far-right anti-immigration message with the more familiar 'Dutch tolerance' element: specifically, he was against allowing Islamist asylum-seekers into the Netherlands on the grounds that their (anti-equality, anti-gay) beliefs supposedly eroded 'traditional' Dutch liberalism. An odd mix of views...
 
 
drzener
18:34 / 06.05.02
I was watching Sky news before I came into work and they said he had just died. Sounded like a fairly hardcore hit. It has also shocked a lot of other dutch politicians. I don't feel one way or another about his death.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:02 / 06.05.02
BBC News
 
 
Ierne
20:08 / 06.05.02
is the 'rise of the right' in mainland europe so serious it requires this kind of response? – sfd

It's serious enough that this assassination may backfire and play right into their hands. If the murder is found to be politically motivated, and the left are tarred by the media as willing to kill in order to get their point across, they'll lose a fuckload of votes.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
20:26 / 06.05.02
Shooting him solved nothing. It was the support he garnered in a democratic process from all those people which is the worry and someone else will harness those votes now.

I'm ashamed to say I'd have no qualms about you and me twisting the night away on his grave though, sfd.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:55 / 06.05.02
Hmmm. And what if it turns out he was assassinated by the right for being a gay man in public life? Does it make his death better or worse if it is likely to affect the voting share of the left?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:40 / 07.05.02
The other thing here is of course to what extent Fortuyn is an "extreme right-winger", in the sense that Jean-Marie le Pen is an extreme right winger. As I understand it (and I'm no expert on Dutch politics), his stance on immigration was that if the Moslem population of Holland continued to grow, then the greater voice of Islam would begin to erode Holland's legendary tolerance of alternative sexualities, political dissent and gender equality. The idea of Islam as a religion that oppresses queer people and women is not exactly alien to a fair few left-wingers, and indeed a fair few Barbeloids...
 
 
Fra Dolcino
11:06 / 07.05.02
Beat me to it Haus.

Yeah, my house mate is Dutch, and he was of the opinion that Le Pen was a liberal that felt impinged upon by certain religions (not just Islam) and cultures. I believe he was not opposed to multi-culturalism, but wanted current immigration halted to halt the 'swamping' of the traditional Dutch liberalism.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:14 / 07.05.02
Actually, I think he only wanted *Moslem* integration halted, and immigration into Holland in general reduced to 10,000 a year (25% of its current figure), pointing to Holland's status as the most densely populated nation in Europe (I think) as a reason. Which is odd, because it actually made his position *more* obviously discriminatory rather than less. "We can still accept immigrants - but no Moslems". Meep.
 
 
Naked Flame
11:33 / 07.05.02
I had a conversation the other day where I and a friend decided it was only a matter of time before someone decided to start shooting the rightwingers. We didn't expect them to take us seriously though. And he's very definitely dead... saw a front-age pic of him lying in the street on his back, pool of blood from a head wound, and his hands in plastic bags secured by rubber bands, which isn't standard gunshot therapy for the living.

I'm not sure whether I'm going to be dancing, or in there with the flowers. Any assassination undermines the process of understanding and fuels reactionary fundamentalism. Yet, I can't bring myself to cry for anyone who bases their politics on the manipulation of ethnic stereotyping and people's fears. Though there is a certain wow factor in a queer fascist...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:46 / 07.05.02
I saw an article about Fortuyn recently. I found him fascinating. If his stance were empirically demonstrable, where would that leave democratic liberal conscience? If an influx of people from any culture was eroding the liberal ethos itself, would the democratic state have the right to allow this to continue? Or the duty to prevent it? Or vice versa? Can a democracy vote itself out of existence? Can it allow itself to be abolished by weight of numbers?

Last news was that a white 'left-winger' was in custody.

Haus - not wanting to be a pain, but I think 'Moslem' is an old British India spelling, now considered somewhat colonial/offensive. Not sure - will check - does anyone know fer shur?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
14:11 / 07.05.02
a lot of things worry me about this, and about the bloke himself - yes, it did occur to me too that the murder might be homophobic. his 'liberal' views as to why he was anti-islam could've been directed at many other religions - so why pick just this particular one out? my main concern is that the last thing we need is a right wing martyr, so even if it is a lefty anti-racist act, then it could be terribly counter productive.

so, zocher - i think i might hold off putting my on dancing shoes just for the moment. we'll have to see how this pans out.
 
 
Dao Jones
14:29 / 07.05.02
I'm not convinced he was anti-Islam except in the context of his particular perception of a problem in the case of his nation. He rejected the idea of alliance with other rightist groups in Europe and rejected the assertion that he was racist, and his objections to immigration appear to be practical rather than hate-based - how much grass-roots non-tolerance can a tolerant society absorb before it starts to change? He perceived 'agrarian Islam' as intolerant - a notion which, though unpalatable, may not be any more untrue than the idea that agrarian Catholicism is intolerant - or actually, agrarian anyone.

But I guess we'll never know.

I've started a thread here
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:32 / 07.05.02
Naked Flame - forgive my ignorance, but I was not aware of policies of Fortuyns' that were demonstrably fascist: he never spoke out against democracy, as far as I can tell, or claimed that the Dutch were the master race, or argued for state control over the lives of its citizens, with the single exception of greater integration for Muslims (Nick - you may well be right; the OED has them as variants, but since when was that the tome of PC? Does anyone have a clear ruling on this?). Could you explain how he was a fascist?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
14:43 / 07.05.02
I think Pim Fortuyn was dangerous precisely because he could cloak his racially divisive political opinions in the cloak of protecting warm, fuzzy, traditional Dutch liberality. His platform proposed savage cuts to welfare payments and removing vital anti-discrimination legislation from the Dutch statute book. He wasn't a liberal in any way other than expressing his sexuality.

As sfd said, he disliked Islam in particular and was insulting about it and its adherents. Orthodox Judaism is just as hostile to queers, let alone the forms of Calvinism and Protestantism which flourished in the Netherlands at the height of their historic power.

But Fortuyn went for the Muslims and ignored the essential Dutch history of assimilating migrants of other faiths, to their immense benefit, through the centuries. Simon Schama's An Embarrassment of Riches is good on how intricately the commercial and maritime power of the Dutch stemmed from their social and religious beliefs in what was then a hostile world.

Because he was gay, he could pretend that he was different from the other xenophobic European populists de nos jours. Perhaps, but remember Erich Roehm and the rise of Nazism. Being gay is no guarantor of any inherent political affiliation.

But shooting him was 100% morally wrong and entirely counter-productive. Still waiting to hear what impelled this reportedly "left-wing" young man to do the deed.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:02 / 07.05.02
Out of interest, how does the knowledge of Holland's wartime record as the most successful Nazi collaborators in Europe affect people's viewpoint on this?
 
 
Not Here Still
17:52 / 07.05.02
Re: the war. Don't mention the war, Haus. No, really, don't bother here; I think it's kind of irrelevant and distracting to point at WWII and say: "Look, the Dutch were bastards then. Once a bastard, always a bastard!" or anything like that.

I also think it's a touch dangerous to look at The Netherlands* as sharing the same attitude towards life, an attitude which hasn't changed since 1945. Of course, you may not mean this, so put me right if I've got you wrong

Re: Fortuyn.

The only good facist is a dead facist?

My arse. What's so good about this bloke dying? As several people have said, this basically creates a martyr - albeit, thanks to the fact he was gay, perhaps a difficult martyr for you usual meatheaded Facist to pick up.
But that's kind of what worried me about Pim Fortuyn; he certainly didn't fit the *stereotype* of a right winger, which made him all the more worrying.

I don't think Nick Griffin or Le Pen would be subject to the same opinions being expressed that I've been hearing from people today; but Fortuyn seems, especially with hindsight, to have picked up a kind of 'lovable racist' image.
Yeah, he may have played up the racism to get his face on talkshows, and wow, he might have been gay, but so fucking what? He was still a racist, unless I missed the meeting where being gay was a get out of jail free card for intolerance...

Having said that, it's worrying, this. It's the first political assasination in the Netherlands since the 17th century, apparently; and it's beginning to look like Europe is beginning to draw battle lines between the disenfranchised on both left and right. For an anti-facist to decide that the gun is the best form of protest worries me. It also gives the Far Right a chance to raise their game, and have their own 'war on terrorism' (trust me, someone on the Far Right'll say it soon enough.)

The Haus of Correction time:

1: The preferred spelling to use is "Muslim" rather than "Moslem." In the same way as the word "Hindoo" was used by the British to refer to Hindus, the word "Moslem" was used by them for Muslims. It was often used as a slur and therefore many Muslims consider "Moslem" to be a derogatory term.


From the Asian-American Journalist's Association stylebook.

and 2: *being really bloody pedantic, you'd get picked up on Holland if you called The Netherlands Holland over there - I know I did.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:04 / 07.05.02
Oh, I'm not suggesting at all that the Dutch were bastards, only that the chances of surviving as a Jew in the Netherlands were statistically much lower than in, say, France. Part of this was about terrain, but a lot of it, as I understand it, came from the Netherlands police force simply not being able to comprehend the idea a) of not cooperating and following the chain of command and b) what was actually going to happen to the Jews.

As a result, possibly, of this, Holland has thrown itself psychotically into providing a model of tolerance for the rest of the world, with impeccable equality and liberalism. My suggestion was just that the fetishisation of that post-war resolve may have lead to the peculiar sight of a flamboyantly gay nationalist proposing that the borders be closed in order to preserve the Netherlands as a cradle of liberal acceptance.

(Although apparently his interview this week did take even a lot of his supporters aback)
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
12:47 / 08.05.02
Hmm. Vaguely remember being told once that the Dutch resistance was one of the most effective organisations around, though that bears little relation to the number of collaborators. Besides, I can't argue impartiality. Quick search doesn't prove much either way, but some facts worth considering:

Netherlands invaded May 1940, took all of 5 days. Royal family legged it to Britain. Rest of government kept structurally intact, Germans generally played nicely at first. Occupation mostly concerned with monitoring and propaganda. Jewish persecution starts small, registration, identification (having to wear the yellow Star of David etc) and eventually public degradation. First Jews shipped out in 1942 (2years of propaganda later, god knows what that does to a soul), resistance picks up as persecution of Jews becomes more serious.
Agressive resistance nearly impossible, due to Nazi control of transport and communications, geography (a crowded country without large forests and mountains to hide in), rationing and curfews (summary executions for curfew breakers). Mostly restricted to intelligence gathering, publishing underground newspapers and hiding Jews and downed airmen.
Anne Frank.
Oh, and you really didn't want to be labelled a collaborator after liberation. Not that that proves anything.

Ah well, must get back to work. Just wanted to vent some patriotism. Oh and the Holland/Netherlands thing? Technically, Holland is just the region that makes up most of the West-coast, though I've never met anybody who is very bothered about the use of the term.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:14 / 08.05.02
The best descriptions of the Netherlands' occupation I have come across lately are in Brilliant Orange, a masterful book I cannot recommend too highly. However, in the meantime might I suggest this as a counterpoint.

I hold no brief on this, and have nothing but the greatest admiration for the land and people of the Netherlands. However.
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
16:51 / 08.05.02
However indeed. I'm loath to carry this argument much further as well, not sure if it's within the scope of the thread. Also, I've got no point of contact with the events. Never heard any accounts from relatives, never experience anything similar first-hand, never investigated for myself, so I can't imagine what this must have been like for those involved. I can believe either version of events, and all those in between, which makes it tricky to argue. Suspect the truth of it will be something along the lines of "some good guys, some bad guys, mostly just people trying to make the best of a bad situation."

Perhaps it is best to leave this here. If someone wants to carry on, maybe start another thread. I'll happily play patriot for a while.
 
 
grant
17:57 / 08.05.02
On the "Moslem" thing, I've read that it's not favored because it gets pronounced "maaslum," which means "oppressor" in Arabic.
 
 
Naked Flame
11:44 / 10.05.02
Haus- my use of the word 'fascist' in my previous post is sloppy and simplistic, I'll admit. But then again, so is yours: a more precise definition of the word would be a system in which the state integrates labor and capital under the control of the corporate structure. (definition courtesy of Chomsky.) What you're talking about- master races, etc- is state racism, not fascism. The two are frequently but not always interchangeable.

Fortuyn does seem to evade straightforward definition, at least in terms of our existing political lexicon. We're agreed that he was right-wing, yes? And his death seems to have opened the way for lots of latter-day Enoch Powells to speak up and say 'Well, thank god someone said something.' If it walks like a duck...

Personally, I find it breathtaking that anyone in our super-rich societies has the gall to stand up and say there isn't enough to go round. Got to share the wealth. Did I mention that he thought environmental policy was a waste of time? Pass me those dancing shoes.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
14:06 / 10.05.02
i certainly think a serious debate about immigration/the balance of wealth is way overdue. (economic) immigration is obviously going to happen while so many in the world have nothing. it's certainly not good enough for political leaders and the like (well, all of us really) to express concern at people 'filling their country' without giving a shit why.

sorry, this is blindingly obvious. it does make me fume how some are expected to be happy with their lot and watch us the west rolling in it.
 
  
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