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Grammar Reform

 
  

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Ethan Hawke
16:59 / 06.05.02
What parts of English language grammar would you eliminate by royal fiat if given the chance, because of personal distaste, dislike of pedants for pointing out lapses, or general disuse by the populace?

1) "Whom" - ridiculous, poncey sounding object form of the interrogative pronoun (is that right?). For who does the bell toll sounds just fine and dandy to me.

2) Me should take on more of the functions of the French Moi; that is to say, "Shaquille and Me went to the game" should be appropriate as "me" would be an intensifier of the personal pronoun.

3) Dangling prepostions - I want my language like I like my sex organs: hangin' low and lazy. What do we need this rule for?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
17:03 / 06.05.02
I would have to object to the removal of whom but that's only as a tribute to the late great John Thaw as Inspector Morse.
 
 
bitchiekittie
17:07 / 06.05.02
Ive already begun doing my part to destroy the need for regular punctuation, capitalization and decent speeling

and all because Im a lazy mofo
 
 
Trijhaos
17:10 / 06.05.02
Get rid of the semicolon. There's no need for the thing. It's like the bastard red-headed stepchild of the comma and the colon. Kill it! Stomp it into the ground!
 
 
Persephone
20:44 / 06.05.02
throws self in front of defenseless semi-colons, who never hurt anybody

cut to Persephone's kitchen, which is overridden with semi-colons lying stretched out and curled up and pouncing on yarn and lapping milk from a hundred cracked saucers
 
 
The Apple-Picker
20:50 / 06.05.02
No no no noooooooooooooo!

I love semicolons! They are the best punctuation mark--ever.

And I love whom. In spoken English--whatever--get rid of it. But never written! You're probably one of those horrible people that refuse to say "If I were...." Yuck. I always want to correct that song, "If I was a carpenter...." My ears! My ears!

What I do embrace are the beautiful Sentence Fragment as well as the lovely Run-On Sentence. They are my favorite grammar atrocities.
 
 
w1rebaby
21:18 / 06.05.02
While it's not strictly grammar, I'm getting so sick of people misusing the apostrophe that I think it might be time to kill it off altogether. If you can't do it properly then do without.

I'll adopt a semicolon, though.

And what's wrong with starting a sentence with a conjunction? I'm told that's not actually a formal rule anyway.
 
 
Margin Walker
21:27 / 06.05.02
I think the word Just should be shave the alternate spelling of 'jsut'. Because everytime I try to spell it right I transpost the U & the S. And I do mean everytime, in case you thought I was jsut kidding....
 
 
Trijhaos
21:31 / 06.05.02
I want y'all to be recognized as a real word, not just a variation of you-all.

Semicolon bashing can be the new seal clubbing.

I think "Boy Howdy" should be used by everybody. Why? Because its fun to say. Come on say it, "Boy Howdy".
 
 
Saint Keggers
22:36 / 06.05.02
I think the "s" should go back to the way it used to be written as "F".
 
 
Mazarine
06:08 / 07.05.02
Punctuation? Oh, the hell with that, gotta start at the bottom and fix the alphabet first. I'd start by axing some consonants. Take the letter 'c'. It can be replaced in virtually all cases by a 'k' or an 's'. Then I'd invent a mess of new vowels so that we don't have poor a, e, i, o and u performing all those sounds by themselves or in teams. But that's just cause I'm tired and cranky.
 
 
YNH
06:29 / 07.05.02
easily fixed, just hook up phonetic alphabets...

Still, I'd much rather see the whole thing get more and more hideously complicated... "whassup" is in the OED after all.
 
 
The Apple-Picker
10:28 / 07.05.02
"And what's wrong with starting a sentence with a conjunction? I'm told that's not actually a formal rule anyway." --That's what I thought. Didn't stop some student aid from marking points off on my paper for that, though. But (<---please take note) the same student aid also marked points off on my paper for my parallel construction. Um, dweeb, parallel construction is a g o o d thing. Mofo.

Chef, was that every S? I thought it was just the every lower-case S in a word except for the first... or something like that.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
10:32 / 07.05.02
Ms Pedant says: it's not an 'f', it's an alternate 's' which has roots in uncial amd carolingian minuscule alphabets, ackcherley. So nah.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:45 / 07.05.02
Rather than attempting to change the rules of grammar, why not simply admit without shame one's inability to understand or follow them?

Lordy. Next up - which bits of skiing would you abolish? I'm going for the skis. And the poles. Without them it's just walking downhill in snow. Much safer and better.
 
 
bitchiekittie
11:06 / 07.05.02
and all because Im a lazy mofo
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:41 / 07.05.02
This is about the most horrible thread I've seen for a while.

You want to destroy linguistic diversity because it annoys you? How short-sighted and small-minded can you get?

Embrace other ways of writing and speaking. That's great. Let's have dialects of English, and accord them the respect they deserve as expressions of culture and identity. But just because you happen to have a problem with 'whom' - which, incidentally, is one of the few remaining clues to grammatic structure in English and as such can give a way into more formally constructed and inflected languages like German and Italian - that's no reason to propose some kind of Idiot's Purge.

It's also probably not useful to delete the central language, leaving only the Balkanised dialects and offshoots - mutual communication might be a little more tricky.

Let's not be cutting away options, okay? Let's just keep everything and use what works, where it works...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
11:53 / 07.05.02
a) This ain't a serious thread.
b) If it were a serious thread, your arguments against changing the English language would be just as precious. As you rightly point out, "whom" is a living fossil from an earlier era of English, when it was a more inflected language. Most of the inflections have been dropped or have become invisible. I don't need you to tell you to compare Chaucer and Bret Easton Ellis.
It is amusing to me that two of the most strident opponents against any sort of essentialism (Nick and Haus) would want to protect the arbitrary construction of English grammarians from the ravages and savages of the intervening centuries.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:10 / 07.05.02
You're *still* upset about the Taliban thing, aren't you? Bless.

I have no problem with the English language evolving. I like it. I like that I can now use the construction "I like that". Even a cursory reading of my posts suggests that I play pretty fast and loose with grammar. I like that 19th Century strictures on splitting infinitives have been relaxed.

What Nick is objecting to is the idea that bits of a living structure should be hacked off to appease people who can't get the hang of them. If a bit of language is pointless or outmoded, let it die. If it isn't (and "whom" as the objective in relative and indirect composition has value as a way to identify a particular form of writing or speech, and also because "for who the bell tolls" sounds terrible), then use it or not as you see fit, but don't resent other people being able to use it better.

Grammar is not just an unfair imposition on the Peaceful People. It is a means of structuring composition. Some posters have so tenuous a grasp on this that their posts are often garbled to the point of near-incomprehensibility. Others (and these do overlap), manage to communicate meaning but in a way so clumsy and ugly that it makes my cremaster turn alabaster. Having some idea both of what the rules are and how they work is very useful befroe you start stretching them.
 
 
w1rebaby
12:16 / 07.05.02
Haus made a typo! Haus made a typo! Look!

*jumps up and down and points*
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:20 / 07.05.02
Personally I'm interested in something that will help me express myself more appropriately, adequately and so on; and I would therefore like a MaximumClause machine, which would prevent me from constructing huge, rambling, clause-ridden sentences which go on for entire paragraphs. There would need to be a limit on semi-colons and ellipses, and probably parentheses. I just don't seem to be able to construct short sentences - they don't sound right.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:23 / 07.05.02
I'm just miffed that my post in jest was taken seriously by ya'll. I quite like "whom", most of the time. I have no problem with "linguistic diversity." (said phrase is
And good god, man - I admitted defeat gracefully (though eventually) in the struggle about Taliban. Why must you beat me over the head with it?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:24 / 07.05.02
Sweetheart, I do that all the time. Have you not noticed? As long as they don't interfere with comprehension of my post, I don't usually bother to correct them unless I have a chunk of spare time on my hands. Maybe you could turn it into a fun game? 5 points for a transposed "l" and "d" in "should" or "could", 10 points for a semicolon in place of an apostrophe, 15 points for "fpr", 20 points for "ign" instead of "ing", and so on.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:26 / 07.05.02
Dileltantism - I'm only joking - love you really. The above post was, of course, for Fridgemagnet.
 
 
w1rebaby
12:26 / 07.05.02
How much for missing quote marks?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:34 / 07.05.02
Oh, right. You were joking. Well, for God's sake, say so. I'm not typographitelepathic.

'Whom' is not a 'living fossil' any more than paragraphs, apostrophes and capital letters are. It's an indicator. You can do without it, but the result is not quite as clear. And whilst you claim to think my arguments are precious, you didn't engage with my point about other languages at all.

I'm glad you're amused to see myself and Haus in agreement. Perhaps you could put aside your sense of the remarkable for a second and consider that we rarely agree on anything...and that implies that this is either exceptional or obvious. Perhaps both.

This has nothing to do with preserving the work of fusty and dusty grammarians. It's about access to options and registers. It's about English being the most diverse and arguably the most adaptable langauge in the world, and retaining that tool of excellence in its fullest form. You can say almost anything you need to say with a vocabulary of two thousand words. Basic communication requires only eight hundred. English has perhaps two hundred thousand. Shall we just cut the dictionary, or do you think there might be some value in all that extra weight?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:37 / 07.05.02
How much for missing quote marks?

The vaguest feeling that you are trying too hard?
 
 
w1rebaby
12:43 / 07.05.02
The vaguest feeling that you are trying too hard?

That'll do. That's my afternoon set up now.
 
 
Annunnaki-9
12:53 / 07.05.02
I enjoy the semicolon, apostrophes don't bother me, nor does the word 'whom.' But if I had my way, I'd go with phonetic spelling. English and French are the only languages I know that waste time with learning how to spell. I mean really, if we spelled like we sound, maybe folks would be able to learn how to properly employ semicolons.

But language changes, both spoken and written. It's foolish to try to freeze it in one timeframe. Then, it's only option is obsolesence.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
13:11 / 07.05.02
I would really just like people to understand that plural forms of their family name are NOT posessive!!! My Mom's business entails a lot of personalizing crap, and I can't tell you how many times people ask for something to say, "The Smith's," "The Jacobson's," etc. etc. It doesn't matter if you tell them it's wrong. They STILL think it's right. Even if they wanted plural posessive for their family name, they still insist on going with apostrophe s insted of s apostrophe. It's maddening.

/rant
 
 
bitchiekittie
13:27 / 07.05.02
my 7 year old knows how to appropriately use an apostrophe. there is no good reason on earth that someone should get away with hanging signs that have misplaced apostrophes
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:45 / 07.05.02
The family names thing...I have a dim memory of being told that was the correct way of writing names. I don't do it. Anyone else?

Uh, BK...there is an argument which says 'to appropriately use' is a mistake, but it's somewhat contentious.
 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
14:04 / 07.05.02
Get rid of the 'u' which follows almost every 'q'. It conveys absolutely no information and therefore is just a waste of a letter. Plus, it makes everything look qite funky-looking. And I only know of one word which *doesn't* do this (qabalism, scrabble fans) which can legitimately be spelt in a dozen other way.
It's probably only a matter of time before smileys, registered trademarks signs, and really big corporate logos get incorporated into the alphabet anyway. We need to free up space in the alphabet.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
14:10 / 07.05.02
Re Scrabble - I got a Scrabble dictionary to mediate disputes and it's a bit of a joke. There are tons of words in there that any right-minded person would declare illegitimate for competition. And yes, there ARE several other words (appropriate according the official Scrabble dictionary) that use the "q" without the "U", though I can't think of any off the top of my head.

(except for "qat", which is an alternate for "khat" a stimulate chewed in Africa.)
 
 
bitchiekittie
14:12 / 07.05.02
exactly my point nick! even a backassward no-grammar-havin high school dropout can figure it out!
 
  

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