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National Cleavage Day

pointless and uncalled for

13:24 / 02.05.02

So yesterday was National Cleavage Day in South Africa.

Now maybe I'm being a bit conservative, but does that just seem a bit wrong?

While there could be upsides of promoting the freedom of women to express themselves as sexually forward, should they so choose, it seems to me as if it's state sponsored objectification.

Any opinions?

ONLY NICE THINGS

13:31 / 02.05.02

You are already associating cleavage with being "sexually forward". Because all women in colthes with a neckline below the neck are sluts. Mummy.

It could just as well be a campaign for the right of women to wear clothing that exposes cleavage without being harrassed or punished for it - a National cleavage Day in Qatar, for example, would be a bold challenge to religious orthodoxy.

But yes, chances are it is just a bit shit. Chances are it is also not a government-sponsored event - where are your facts coming from? There was a "National Cleavage Day" in the UK (which fell into every possble nasty, prurient, sexist trap you might expect) which was entirely the creation of one of our downmarket tabloid newspapers.

pointless and uncalled for

13:47 / 02.05.02

Actually I'm quoting someone interviewed by CNN about the being sexually forward. I felt that it would be best if I were to reference the opinion of a particiapnt in the event.

I probably should ahve clarified that point.

pointless and uncalled for

13:55 / 02.05.02

It was from an article I saw the end of on CNN last night. Unfortunately I didn't get to see the full reported story so couldn't tell how it was initiated. There were no references to a paper or other organisation, although I can't rule them out.

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:01 / 02.05.02

It's a publicity stunt for Wonderbra.

14:04 / 02.05.02

I fully support the right of women to wear clothing that they want to without being harrassed or punished for it.

But thats a long way from saying that no clothing or style of dress is sexually provocative. Its the link between the two that needs to be severed.

So for many, myself included, I'd say that the display of cleavage is a sexual signal - culturally based, no doubt, and one that I could suppress. But I'm not really sure that I want to. That doesn't mean I judge or condemn or label the person as a slut. It means that I notice and I am to a small extent stimualted by it. In my view, the association of sexual feeling with prejudice is precisely the kind of thing that perpetuates sexism.

Let me sail even closer to the wind. A person can dress provocatively and, moreover, this can be inappropriate. However, the key is to be able to say this without jumping to stereotypes of the slut/whore variety. The liberation of women surely does not entail their being treated as asexual?

We're The Great Old Ones Now

14:13 / 02.05.02

[shrug]

I think my friends here in London marched in their unmentionables on NCD last year, in support of Breast Cancer Research and Reclaim the Night.

I sort of don't get too worked up about it. I mean, it's great, it's probably a bit 'Wonderbra' orientated, but it seems basically a good thing. I think 'State Sponsored Objectification' is probably getting into the realms of overactive theorybitchery. Most especially if you're a man.

Step aside, Potus. You n me got no business arguing this one.

pointless and uncalled for

14:45 / 02.05.02

No male feminists then.

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:45 / 02.05.02

I think 'State Sponsored Objectification' is probably getting into the realms of overactive theorybitchery.

Well, in this case it would simply be factually incorrect. This is a way for Wonderbra to get column inches and profile by paying young women to stand around showing off their Wonderbra-enhanced cleavages to blokes. It has nothing to do with the state at all.

What I find interesting is exacxtly what I found interesting about the Herzagova "Hello Boys" ad over here - the men being notionally targeted are not the buyers of Wonderbras. So, in fact, the company seems to be aiming to sell more bras by communicating to women, "buy this and you will be more successfully objectified by men. Look at these men ogling that woman's cleavage. Don't you want ment o ogle *your* cleavage?"

Oh, and Lurid - I suggest we consider whether "sexually provocative" and "sexually forward" mean the same thing. I'm not at all sure they do...

14:53 / 02.05.02

I'm not sure about the sort of distinction you are making, Haus.

One might say that showing cleavage is sexually forward since it presents a conscious choice of provocative display. No?

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:03 / 02.05.02

Well, no.

If I am wearing a YSL buttockless PVD jumpsuit, this is indubitably sexually provovative. Or grotesque beyond all sanity, but work with me here.

However, should somebody decide that, dressed like that, I was asking for it, or indeed that I was in effect propositioning them, and you could tell by the way I was dressed, I would tend to say that they were assuming, as a result of my provocative dress, that I was being sexually forward.

15:16 / 02.05.02

But aren't you making that link between sexual signalling and condemnation? Perhaps we are getting into semantics - very boring - but I'd say that you were being sexually forward, in your "YSL buttockless PVD jumpsuit". You surely would be aware of the tongue drooping reactions of those around you. By wearing it, you do invite that sort of attention. I think it would be hard to claim that you wore such an outfit in order to be inconspicuous.

But that doesn't mean you are "asking for it" and that you deserve harrassment. Equally, you shouldn't be surprised if you are propositioned a bit more than usual - no problem there as long as it is polite and respectful.

ONLY NICE THINGS

15:38 / 02.05.02

I think we *are* getting into semantics, but my understanding of "sexually forward" is in the sense of "aggressive, seeking to move to a conclusion". It occurs to me that I can wear something *you* find provocative without being forward. It's a question of where the action lies.

Or, to put it another way, I cannot be responsible for how everyone around me responds to the way I look/dress/talk. I can be responsible for my own actions.

16:07 / 02.05.02

Yeah, fair enough. I understood "sexually forward" to mean, broadly speaking, assertive and perhaps blatant. You seem to be saying that one has to be sexually forward toward a specific other and that entails a definite interest in some sort of gratification.

I'd say you can be sexually forward and still reject most, if not all, of the people you encounter - you might have someone in mind, it might be more nebulous than that. The point being that you signal potential general interest, but not specific interest.

And yes, you could wear something that someone might find provocative without being forward. But you can't completely separate your intended impressions and another's perceptions. On the whole, people do not randomly find themselves wearing sexually provocative clothes - "oops where did that flimsy fish net top come from?" - there is a certain intent involved.

But we aren't really disagreeing, are we? We are just using some specific words differently.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:15 / 02.05.02

Indeed. I think the pooy thing here is that (probably) blokes in an ad or PR agency decided to have girls hanging around on street cvorners presenting their breasts to blokes in cars, in order to make women feel liek they had to buy Wonderbras. It's just a bit nasty.

16:34 / 02.05.02

Yeah. By itself its a bit pathetic, but in a larger context there is something decidedly unpleasant. The unfortunate consequence is that sex gets equated with manipulation and the imagery oppresses women - at least in terms of the body images and sexual behaviour that is presented.

I think that the upshot of this can be to retreat to more puritanical views on sex in order to distance oneself from the sordidness of those grubby PR men. A bit sad.

19:15 / 02.05.02

Bear in mind that for the majority of South African women, the cultural norm involves not wearing a blouse or bra at all.

Tops on women are leftovers from the cultural oppressors.