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Remote controlled rats

 
 
grant
20:24 / 01.05.02
I was just reading the fourth Harry Potter book to the stepson. This is the Imperius Curse, right here:

from Ananova
American scientists claim they've developed remote-controlled rats that can be used as robots.

Researchers from the State University of New York inserted electrodes in the rats' brains.

They say they can make rats run, jump and climb with commands from a laptop 500 metres away.
 
 
YNH
03:44 / 02.05.02
and only a couple years after roaches... I need to find a picture
 
 
Rose
04:35 / 02.05.02
"The scientists say the animals could be used as robots to search for earthquake survivors or to help destroy landmines."

That's fucking horrible.
I think that it is terrible that they are putting all this money into retrofitting living rats to go out and be killed. If they have all this time, brains and funding why not work on mechanical robots?

It is right to send these animals out like this?
I mean, I know that they are rodents, but does that really matter?
 
 
YNH
05:33 / 02.05.02
 
 
YNH
05:43 / 02.05.02
Nature has some elaboration.

They work for pleasure," says Sanjiv Talwar, the bioengineer at the State University of New York who led the research team. One electrode stimulates the rat's medial forebrain bundle, or MFB, the 'feelgood' centre of the mammalian brain. "The rat feels nirvana," Talwar says.

Yum!

Manipulating animal's minds, especially for dangerous missions, raises ethical questions. "Debate is certainly needed," admits Talwar. But he points out that the rats live as long as normal, and when not wearing mind-altering backpacks they are just like any other rats. "They're not zombies, they work with their instincts," he says.

Move toward nourishment; move away from excrememnt. Wait! now I feel great when I move toward excrement. Screw instincts!

Here's a Barbelith thread picturing the Roach; a somewhat more crude, invasive, and zombiesque approach.
 
 
Lionheart
17:33 / 02.05.02
Actually this isn't only a couple of years after roaches. This technology has existed since the 80s.

I'll provide the links next time I'm on.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
19:44 / 02.05.02
i saw some footage of this on a tv news report last night. i can't add much to the thread here, but i have to butt in here and say i think it's absolutely fucking *disgusting*. this is 'technology' we don't need.
 
 
grant
21:16 / 02.05.02
Beats capital punishment, though, don't it?
 
 
Thjatsi
21:46 / 02.05.02
I'm a bit torn over this research. On one hand, as a transhumanist, I think that any basic research on electrode / brain interactions is inherently a good thing. On the other, I worry that this technology may be functional in humans. And, if it is, what's to stop a rather oppressive government from sticking a few electrodes in the human pleasure center (as was done in the rat study) for interrogation or related purposes? Of course, this possibility assumes that a human could be trained through the use of such a method.

On the lighter side, I keep having a visual picture of a mad scientist waving his hands in the air and screaming, "With my army of rats I will rule the world! BHAHAHHA!".
 
 
YNH
03:03 / 03.05.02
I think the remote controled humans thing has a rather limited scope. You know, 'cause you'd prolly need a 1 for 1 controlling ratio. The other bit, about hooking up the pleasure center: well, it beats having yr genitals electrocuted.

And it is technology we need. Not you and me with our fully functional typing hands, but for Stephen Hawking's exoskeleton or folks who lose appendages.

And Thiazi, I saw that too... that and the dolphin in Johnny Mnemonic (story, not movie.)
 
 
Knight's Move
14:47 / 03.05.02
Can anyone back these ones up? I may have mangled the truth somewhere but I'm sure I read/heard about these:

60s or 70s scientists apparently created a cyborg cat with recording gear as an offshoot from MK-Ultra research, for use as a walking camera essentially. Apparently, so the story goes it first went out and sought food, so they wired it not to, then it looked for sex, so they wired that. Then they sent it out and it walked under a taxi. I personally don't blame it.

Also, I heard that scientists were able to examine monkeys brains when using a mouse and watched the brain patterns made so that they could identify the points in the brain that sparked (for want of a better word) when they did certain things. They then trained the monkeys to do certain tasks and then replaced the mouse with electrodes directly into those parts of the brains and connected monkey to computer directly, converted the programs to activate from the electrical impulses from the brain and got the monkeys to do the task with their brains. Anything behind this one? (There was another similar experiment I heard about involving thoughts controlling computers but I can't remember what it was).
 
 
Thjatsi
16:11 / 03.05.02
You know, 'cause you'd prolly need a 1 for 1 controlling ratio.

Let's take this completely hypothetical scenario. First, we will say that the electrode exerts a form of pleasure that is 100 times as powerful as heroin. This is rather unlikely, but we really have no idea how strong the shock is, and it may be possible. You're an oppressive dictator at war with another country, and you capture a few hundred of the enemy troops. You wire them up, and give them a shock twice a day for a week. Then you tell them, "Go attack this regiment of your old commrades, who outnumber you about two to one, come back alive and you'll get another week's worth of shocks." Do any humans possess the ability to resist this sort of training? And, if this is the case, what percentage can do so?

The other bit, about hooking up the pleasure center: well, it beats having your genitals electrocuted.

In general, I agree with you. However, most of the people who experienced a form of pleasure strong enough to be useful in interrogation would spend the rest of their lives thinking about nothing but how to get the electrode placed back into their brains. A good portion of who they were, their hopes and goals, might be effectively destroyed.

While I am in favor of this technology, it possesses a hell of a lot of potential for abuse. In addition, it also has the potential to answer a few really serious questions about free will, and what a human is. And, my worries about the answers to these questions disturb me more than the potential abuses.
 
 
grant
17:29 / 03.05.02
Hassan il Sabbah gave us the word "assassin" with something very similar, only using chemicals & religion instead of electricity.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
17:34 / 03.05.02
"Beats capital punishment, though, don't it?"

grant - our justice system is NOT their problem.
 
 
YNH
07:04 / 04.05.02
Knight's Move, we/they pretty much know what sparks where in human brains, and have for some time. Famous dolphin torturer John c. Lilly did some of the early mappin back in the 60's, didn't ze?

Thiazi... sure humans could resist the training. Sight of comraes, loved ones, &c. would prolly do the trick for most of em. Of course, militaries like the US tend to go after sociopathic loners, so it's not a moot point. Knowing a few recovered heroin addicts helps put the suggestion into sharper focus.

As far as I'm concerned it's already being abused, and not just from a rats' free will standpoint but from the invasive surgery angle. It's even kind of difficult to say whether benefits outweigh the icky bits. Care to elaborate on the "answers about free will and [what it means to be human]" comment?
 
 
Thjatsi
03:08 / 05.05.02
Care to elaborate on the "answers about free will and [what it means to be human]" comment?

Basically, I like to think that humans work on the concept of free will, instead of a purely mechanical stimulus-response model. In addition, I would like to believe that this free will cannot be fundamentally altered by the applications of certain stimulus. For example, I really want to believe that the minds of most humans are strong enough that they could not be trained in this manner. If this technique was viable, it would offer evidence against my free will model. And, with enough evidence I would be forced to reject it, which would make me unhappy.
 
 
Knight's Move
09:39 / 05.05.02
I've found the monkeys controlling computers with their brains thing it's at link installed here by moderator.

Sorry I don't know how to make that a link.
 
 
YNH
16:39 / 05.05.02
Huh? So, like, giving you high marks as a reward for performing homework, or maybe cookies for giving blood (happens in America, anywho) challenges the free will model? I mean, the rats are still formally free to do rat things, it's just that they have this nagging suspicion that orgasm is around that corner to the left, and really don't mind exploring that possibility. See?
 
 
Lionheart
18:48 / 06.05.02
Well, if it's that technology then it's been around for ages.

But the direct cause of movement technology has been around since the 80s or 70s. Maybe earlier.


Here's the link that I promised.

http://www.keelynet.com/biology/livewire.txt
 
 
netbanshee
20:05 / 08.05.02
heard a bit more on this over at NPR. The researcher was saying that the procedure influences the rat's decision making but won't cause it to do something out of the ordinary. One example was trying to make it jump off a 4ft ledge onto a cushion...the height was to great and the rat refused.

As far as moral implications, it seems that although this in invasive and undermines respect for creatures, if kept in simple actions and care, I don't have a problem with it. Just like the remote-controlling of a computer hooked up to a patient, someone needs to be involved on some level to see if there's any value to technologies like this.
 
 
Thjatsi
13:29 / 13.05.02
Good point, maybe it doesn't challenge the free will model after all.
 
  
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