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Underground > Comic Books >

A question of distribution

18:18 / 01.05.02

In the light of LPC (the main distributor of graphic novels of non DC (aol/time-warner)and Marvel(Toybiz) graphic novels ) recently going into chapter 11 bankruptcy - placing Top shelf (a comkic company that does substantial sales through the book trade) and Top shelfs subsequent salvation through direct sales via the web i was wondering what people thought about the future of comics distribution?

Is what McCloud calls digital delivery the new direct sales with forums such as WEFbecoming the new comic shops?

if so what are the benefits and the problems?

what doi you guys think?

18:51 / 01.05.02

It may be a good thing in the end. Comcis publishers need to wake up and start using the same distributors that book publishers do. This will get the comics in the book stores and grocery stores again. I work in a book store. We do a decent job of getting graphic novels in trough our book distributors but there is no chance we will ever order comics through Diamond etc. Its just not worth it.
I don't know much about LPC though. Where I work, we got our Top Shelf books through the same distributor as our regular books. Ingram I believe.

19:23 / 01.05.02

OT: Speaking of Distribution...

The magazine I work for; Kungfu-qigong is just now being picked up by Diamond. I hope no-one's Too ofended if I ask that any of you with the power to order from Diamond to give the magazine a shot...

I also noticed they seem to be carying MAXIM & a few other such Mags... not just comics anymore eh?

Murray Hamhandler

20:52 / 01.05.02

This is something that I've really been giving a lot of thought to, and I'd like to give a more thorough response later. For one thing, sleazenation, from what I understand, LPC is getting Chapter 11 , meaning that they're not really going under but rather just getting assistance while they get their shit sorted out. So they're still going to be operating for the forseeable future, as far as I know. Whether their customers will want to stick w/them after this debacle remains to be seen.

Does anyone know much about the distribution side of things, as far as books and periodicals are concerned? Like, how many other distributors do the customers of LPC have to turn to if LPC really goes under? How many of these distributors carry (or would carry) comics product? It's heartening to hear, Sandfarmer, that other distributors besides LPC are carrying comics product. I was afraid that the LPC deal was another Diamond-esque 'eggs in one basket' thing. But, yes. If the option is there, then comics most definitely need to diversify. Part of the problem that makes things like the upcoming Free Comics Day necessary is the fact that the vast majority of comics product is only available through comics specialty stores.

But, again, a more thorough (and possibly unwieldly) post on this and other related matters should be forthcoming soon.
Arthur Sudnam, II

21:20 / 01.05.02

"I also noticed they seem to be carying MAXIM & a few other such Mags... not just comics anymore eh?"

The thing that is fucking sad about that is that I've started to see comic shops carrying Maxim and lots of magazines but we can't get the books stores and magazine stands to carry comics because they will not deal with Diamond. If the comic as a monthly periodical dies, it wont be because people don't want them, it will be because people can't get them. Graphic novels are fine but I don't like to wait for them. I like new product from my favorite writers and artists every month, even if it is only 22 pages of material.
Diamond recently closed several distribution centers including their one here in Atlanta making it much more expensive for comic shops to stay in business. If something is not done soon, I see a lot of comic shops going under.
I for one don't want to have to buy my comics online. I want to hold it in my hand and flip through the pages. I want to smell the ink. That's how I get turned on to new stuff, hanging out in the comics shops and sampleing comics, not by surfing the net or reading Diamond's Previews.

22:46 / 01.05.02

I hear that!!!

Distribution for periodicals in general is pretty Phuked!!!

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

03:17 / 09.05.02

The big thing coming in the future of comics distribution is that DC has an option to buy Diamond...and will prolly do it if their sales keep dropping.

Maybe Capt. Zoom has more up to date info, but I have heard from retailers that the rumor is that if DC doesn't turn some numbers around, the new VP of their division will have them take over Diamond (which they have in their exclusive contract with Diamond) to give their books a bigger push, and to make money of off Marvel.

If I were with any other comic company, I woudl be working VERY hard to get into bookstores....the last time DC was in charge of distribution, they limited Marvel to 8 books per month.

06:08 / 09.05.02

Guess what? Things just got even more screwed up:

SAN FRANCISCO COMIC RETAILER FILES CLASS ACTION SUIT AGAINST MARVEL COMICS

"Brian Hibbs, owner of Comix Experience, filed a class action law suit in New York Supreme Court on Monday on behalf of the roughly 3500 American comic book shops, alleging Marvel Enterprises, Inc. has repeatedly breached its Terms of Sale in its dealings with American comic shops."

Call me a legal illiterate, but don't you need at least one other person to join you in order for a lawsuit to be "Class Action"? I'm not saying this guy doesn't have a legitimate beef w/ Marvel & Diamond, but doesn't this sound really fucking arrogant? I mean, the suit is to the tune of 10 million dollars. Not exactly beer money left in the couch, now is it? Besides, he's from California, so why is he filing the suit in New York, in the New York Supreme Court no less?

06:37 / 09.05.02

Popping along to the newsarama version of the story should answer your questions, it's at http://www.comicon.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=13&t=001082

But to summarise, one person can call a class action, the court then rules on whether it can indeed be brought as a class action, and then other people can opt in or out. The $10 million is not just for Hibbs but to be shared amongst all the people who join the suit, and the sum is likely to change in discovery. And the suit is brought in NYC because of the terms of sale that Marvel has, I guess it's because Marvel is based in NYC.

I don't think it is arrogrant at all. It would appear that Marvel is in the wrong, in that books ship late, and contrary to their terms of sale Marvel refuse to accept returns. If that is so, why shouldn't the bloke sue?

I did find Quesada'a response, also at newsarama, slightly arrogrant. And Mark Millar's plodding into the whole mess was highly amusing, complaining about the timing of the filing of the suit, like he's has never used the press to whip up a stir.

Are we seeing the art of spin develop in the comics field here?

08:22 / 09.05.02

I think the age of spin in comics has been around for a Loooong time truebelievers- because you demanded it pilgrim!

14:47 / 09.05.02

That's a good point. I guess it's just that Marvel are starting to use the internet as a medium for their spin that I'm starting to notice.

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:41 / 09.05.02

Hypothetically - let's say that all comics stores worldwide went bust, the single issue/periodical market became completely unsustainable, and all we could buy were graphic novels/trade paperbacks from bookstores...

Apart from Captain Zoom's livelihood being affected, why would that be such a bad thing?

16:02 / 09.05.02

Actually I think it would be more than just Zoom's livelihood that was effected since pre-serialization serves not only to multiply the income from a single commission, it is also used to serve as an indicator of what is 'popular' enough to sell in bookshops. the size of the industry would automatically decrease as would the amount publishers could pay thier creatives and staff- there would be less money to go on 'risks' such as new titles. So yeah I think the knocking out of the comic side of the equation would have a vast array of side effects that would hinder rather than help the development of a struggling graphic novels market.

This is just the top of my head and will probably return to this later

14:22 / 10.05.02

It would really be a shame to lose comics in montly periodical form. Each month (or each week really) I pick up a lot of comics just based on flipping through them and checking out new artists and writers. I can afford to lay down $2.50 for something new. If my only option becomes to lay down $15 to $20 for trade paperbacks at a bookstore, I will not be picking up nearly as many different titles. In fact, I'd probably only buy one trade paperback a month.

Its like TV versus movies. I prefer movies but I watch four or five TV shows weekly. I probably can only afford to go see five or six movies a year.

And yeah, I realize that in the end, I spend more money on monthly somics at $2 to $3 a pop but I get more variety. If I liked one issue of a comic. I may not buy the whole series but I may pick up the TPB latter. Without having read the one issue I picked up on a whim, I'll probably never buy the TPB.

17:32 / 10.05.02

Well, in a hypthetical world, if you could pull off the impossible and graphic novels were only available in book shops, that would be okay. Although the level of service may not be as good as a comic shop, as insane as it sounds. What I mean is, the knowledge base of the comic shop employee is vaster than that of the book shop employee. There would probably be a different dynamic in ordering levels, as well, in that a different market would probably emerge. What would be nice is that the stuff might get displayed better and seperated better, with a kids section and an autobiographical section and so on. But I have to agree with Sleaze. I just don't think it's possible at the moment. More work needs to be done on developing the book market as a market.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

15:04 / 11.05.02

Comics as they are now could not survive without monthly comics sales. They give creators an income while they create the books, and give the companies an idea of if the collected version will sell.

For example, Stuck Rubber Baby was a completely original graphic novel that took the artist over a year to complete. He was selling the original art as he finished it in order to pay his rent and buy food, and in some cases sold pages to people before they were done in order to make ends meet, sending them the art as it was completed. DC printed it to great reviews and poor sales, and it has yet to generate any royalties for the artist, although he did get an agreed upon advance.

DC has a great graphic novel program because they have the warehouse space to keep backstock until it finally sells-through enought to make a profit. Marvel's trade paperbacks were so bad because they would only print enough to meet early orders and a few re-orders to save money of warehouse space.

07:00 / 13.05.02

yeah but... novelists who take a year or longer to write a book exist... even people who write short stories, poetry, or books about the sexual habit of the knights templar exist. none of these books are serialized to an incredibly thin market in order to pay for production. screenwriters spend a year or more writing a 2 hour screenplay without having to see one scene at a time produced before they get a greenlight.

comic ghetto-ize themselves and destroy their entertainment/artistic possibilities by treating themselves so differently then any other media, and then crying to their market that things are hard.

08:03 / 13.05.02

Yes novels that are not pre-serialised do exist, but their authors are paid a considerable advance of a kind that is not available in the comic industry with the possible exception of certain personalised exclusivity contracts.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

11:50 / 13.05.02

Novelists also send out completed work that they do on their own, usually without the work of other people. Comics usually require a number of people working on a project, including an artist, inker, letterer, colorist, etc...

The other big difference between novels and comics is that novels USED to be serialized or sold in magazine form, then collected. Novels had about 50 years before the cheap paperback became a viable alternative. Comics have only had collected versions for about 15 years, and their distribution has been for shit.

Comics don't ghettoize themselves by their format so much as their distribution and the history behind them.

The first thing to do would be (Sorry Cap) get comics out of comic shops. There's no way they will be considered anything other than fanboy bait if they are sold by fanboys to fanboys.

19:11 / 13.05.02

i agree with both of the two posts above -- they go along with my point that if comics stuff serializing, they will be forced to adopt new business models that will put the industry, the work, and the creators in a better place.

there's no reason that the advance sum "isn't available" -- it's just not used. marvel has some funds "available" -- they are currently part of the biggest moneymaking film ever -- but they spend it on a constant output of garbage rather than, say, a nice advane for milligan and alred and the advertising needed to legitimize their product.

21:31 / 13.05.02

While it is tempting to speculate at Marvel's financial health at the moment after successfully reinvigorating their line over the last two years and being involved with several successful films, how much do we actually know ? Marvel is still a company clawing its way out of chapter 11 bankruptcy protection after many years of mismanagement.

What's more, IIRC Marvel is not even an autonamous company anymore but comic division of toybiz, meanwhile DC is owned by AOL time Warner and in the UK 200AD is owned by computer games company, Rebellion. Income from movies based on intellectual properties owned by marvel et al.does not necessarily return to those companies. The comic publishers only have the budget that their parent companies allow them.

As the question of adopting advances goes, there is only a finite pot of money that a publisher has to play with- and advances for a chosen few of "top creators" (and remember here a top name creator is not a guarentee of financial success, Mystery Gypts example of Pete Miligan record is pretty hit and miss ) would undoubtedly leave less money to play with to developing new talent and new intellectual copyrights. In an industry with few enough mainstream entry level positions for creators, is it really wise to cut more?

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

01:15 / 14.05.02

Marvel gets nothind from the Spider-Man movie, having sold the movie rights back during the Ron Perleman era for next to nothing to finance buying Fleer.

That's why they pumped out a TON of Spider-Man books...and because they DIDN'T have all that stuff for the X-Men movie, Joey Q got to be EiC.

05:05 / 14.05.02

hmm. well, they are definately paying their creators a whole lot more than usual and handing out lucrative contracts to everyone... "they" definately own a piece of the forethcoming spider man tv show and the merchandising that goes along with the franchise, because the marvel offices are working on all that stuff. and their stock has recently been through the roof. i don't understand the argument that because they are a subsidy + public comapny, they don't get the money they produce.

but that's all tangential. my argument is simply that these companies have a completely fucked business model, one which is dependent on serialization.

if they stopped serialization altogether and developed highe- quality, larger-market books, comic would be able to compete against other forms of media rather than exclusively in a stranglehold-to-the-death competition against one another.

if editors were hired to spend their time developing quality products marketted to a general audience rather than battling schedules to get myriad pamphlets out on time, you can bet they would have much more time -- and impetus -- to find new talent. serialization is one of the greatest obstacles to new talent.

it's easier for a new writer to get calls back from fucking miramax than it is to get calls back from editors at vertigo. one reason for this is that films don't have a business model that forces them to be constantly in production and never in development.

european companies such as humanoids follow a bit of this model, and very successful as a result.

05:24 / 14.05.02

Top Shelf also follow the model of advances and books, with no periodicals pretty closely. I haven't seen any of their product in book shops yet. In fact, I wanted to buy a friend of mine the From Hell graphic novel for his birthday in March, and after trying three bookshops in Croydon I had to go to FP to get it. I think getting graphic novels into bookshops is a good idea, but you need to have someone working there who knows what to order. How does the buying and selling of bookshops work, are there reps, or is there a system similar to Diamond and Previews?

19:27 / 14.05.02

i've heard that top shelf's "advance" is that they promise to give you some nice copies of your book, but maybe i got the story wrong....

Murray Hamhandler

01:03 / 15.05.02

Regarding the cheap paperback thing: why don't comics companies do this anymore? Now would seem to be the time to strike. Release a paperback sized reprint volume of Amazing Spider-Man, maybe the first 10 issues, at a paperback price. Get 'em on the newsstands, at the Wal-Marts. Set the comics racks back up in the convenience stores. Or slip single issues among the magazines, as is being done in places like Borders. Hit the market on several fronts. Average Joe goes to see Spider-Man. He then goes to Wal-Mart, sees the reprint volume among the other paperbacks. He sees the latest Spider-Man issues on among the magazines. Once comics are seen as less marginal, that's when the specialty stores win. People w/more than a passing interest will look deeper into comics. It's an undeniably slow process, but the steps need to be taken at some point if it's ever going to work.
Arthur Sudnam, II

08:12 / 15.05.02

And the paperbacks wouldn't even have to be on expensive, glossy paper either.

I will say this for Diamond, though. I once bought a copy of New X-Men at Mill's Fleet Farm, which is a farm implementry superstore. Granted you had to really search for it amongst the magazines of muscle cars & muscle building, but it was there. The cashier had to look up how to ring the issue up because (not surprisingly) she'd never sold an issue before. It almost felt like I was sneaking in the issue just to puzzle her & the management when I went up to the counter for my "purchase".