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Threat to Alternative remedies.

 
 
Rev. Wright
14:55 / 01.05.02
Well teh pharmicutical fukkos are at it again. This time they are pushing for directives that will remove the publics access and rights to supplimenst and herbal remedies. Obviously caused by an increase of people turning away from manmade drugs and their side effects and successful treatments using these being reported for dis-eases such as cancer.
A major campaign is being mounted and for more info click here

I don't know what involvement that your life may have to suppliments, but on a personal note I have been using them for years to treat myself and within my spiritual practice. Currently I rely on Herbal shops for my non wheat dietry requirements, and these shops will cease trading, if they have not enough products left to keep them open.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:16 / 01.05.02
It does seem pretty heavy handed. But do you think that its an attempt by mainstream medicine to destroy the herbal remedy industry? Or is it the politicians who want to score easy points by making our lives that little bit "safer"?

But is it possible that some herbal remedies are potentially harmful? (Don't really know whats out there, so I don't know.) In that case wouldn't it form part of a trend in restricting substances, sometimes the amounts available, in an effort to stop people O/Ding?
 
 
Thjatsi
20:21 / 01.05.02
Lurid raises a good point. What evidence do you have that this is the work of pharmaceutical companies and not a paternalistic government?

Personally, I'm all for letting the natural foods crowd do whatever they want to their bodies.
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:50 / 01.05.02
I think thats a bit harsh, Thiazi. Natural foods are often taken for health reasons - sometimes to do with allergies - and I thought that there is growing evidence that herbal remedies are effective and with fewer side effects than manufactured drugs. Isn't that right?
 
 
The Monkey
21:43 / 01.05.02
To throw a different spin on the same data:

I don't know how the Brit equivalent works, but in the FDA regs listing as "food supplement" means that the substance has some nutritive value but no verifiable (meaning untested, or not yet tested) medical application. Food supplements are unregulated in terms of their contents, distribution, etc. which is why anyone can sell them.

In America, the food supplement industry is big business...specifically three or four corporations, GNC and TwinLab being the most prominent. Both are cash cows, given that they spend minimal input cash on researching results, thus only having production costs to offset the chunk of changes set down for every bottle of two hundred units of exceedingly dilute herb extract number whatever.... The image of the small-town herbalist belies the fact that the distribution and capital-procurement of the food supplement industry is rooted in the machinery of a very large, very greedy, corporations, who scruples are at least equally suspect as those of the eeevviilll pharmaceutical MNCs.

Now to tack a different direction: herbs are good medicine. Many plants have medical application, and have for yonks. But the majority of information about the use and combination of herbs has been in the hands of a minority of specialists...ritualists, shamans, elders, pick your title. The average "citizen" of presurgical culture had knowledge-access to a supply of relatively simple and benign compounds - analgesics, emitics, etc. - but left the body of serious practice to specialists. Kind of like your average housewife getting to toss about Vitamin C and Acetimetophen, but not digitalis.

But now we have a corporate edifice selling "alternative medicine" as Carter's little pills. Does anyone have any a problem with this? I know that there exists a sort of democratic ideal of every-man-his-own-doctor, but how valid is this position when it is being predominantly pitched by a business looking to line it's own pockets. Hell, given the history of herbal medicine, how valid is it? Wyrding women and Ayurvedics across the globe are laughing up their sleaves and spinning in their graves. We have already seen the minor ripple caused by idiots tossing about ma huang - which is a realtively mild stimulant in the realm of herbalism - but what happens when some genius decides that rauwolfia or foxglove is the new way to go?

Finally, I wish to point out that "natural" is a bullshit category in the context of modern products and media. It's an advertising ploy. The distinction between the pharmacological "manmade" and "natural" exists almost entirely in the minds of White Westerners whose alienations from their own delusions of some Walden-esque state of nature create a semantic validation of the "natural" as "more real." In the parts of the world where herbal medicine remains a necessity due to the rarity of distribution of manufactured goods, antibiotics and other "manmade" drugs are a godsend that save lives, and the two are both used with caution and diligence. The use of plant- and animal- derived medicines is approached with a caution and understanding of risk equivalent to the care taken with surgical and pharmaceutical standards of research.

Herbalism has been reconstructed by the medical "haves" of the West to represent the ontological vacuum left by the risks of modern medicine: in premise, herbalism is thought to also solve the same ailments as "manmade" medicine, only without the temporal inconvienience, the social discomfort of medical examination, or the potential for negative correllary effects. In other words, it is the imagined panacea...or is it the laudanum?

I've never met a Chinese herbalist, an Ayurvedic or Samkya physician who did not take as much care as a US physician with monitoring the progress of their patient in response to the prescribed medication and treatment. That a layperson would have access to their technology, without the extensive training they undergo, would garner a response...has garnered a response...of equal parts incredulity, horror, and amusement.

I'd also point out that the example of cancer medication is an incredibly weak one, given that the former is the absolute outside of last-ditch medical practice. There are very few things that help cancer...chemotherapy drugs are rough going because they represent the final line of defense...something tantamount to suicide bombing as a military...you intentionally poison the cells in the hope that the cancerous ones die...it's the height of long shots. The early AIDS drugs, like AZT, worked on this same final-chance principle. The world - correction, the world of people who can afford them - is screaming for cancer treatments that aren't so painful, so inconvienient, so drastic. Taxol was a glimmer of hope for some cancers, (derived from a rare species of yew tree, by the way) but there is neither sufficient natural supply nor a viable synthetic.

Hell, the desire to place more scrutiny on "alternative" treatments for cancer might have positive effects, like universalizing access to a viable treatment, like giving insurance credits for an herbal supplement.

So is regulation necessarily a bad thing cooked up by eeeviiill pharmaceutical companies? Regulation also means batch trials to prove what works and doesn't, above and beyond the testimonials. And what the side effects are, so that one can at least be a fully informed consumer. Regulation also means that groups like the TwinLabs can't just throw anything in a bottle and thrust it at you as the next panacea. Regulation also means responsibility on the part of both the corporate and the individual herbalist for the advice they give.
 
 
Thjatsi
01:39 / 02.05.02
I think thats a bit harsh, Thiazi.

How is that harsh? I thought I was being pretty reasonable.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:07 / 02.05.02
I'd be very surprised if it turned out that there isn't a major pharmaceuticals lobby in Parliament, actually; I expect a lot of the people who sit on health quangoes have strong links with the industry.
 
 
higuita
08:30 / 02.05.02
If I remember rightly, there's at least three major pharmaceutical lobby groups (private eye is always a good source of this sort of gubbins - see the HP sauce column). And yes, representatives of the industry sit on health (and a variety of other) committees as invitees. Coz they're experts...

However, living in an area dominated by a raffia mafia, I have quite strong feelings on the subject of herbal remedies. A lot of people seem to adopt it as a lifestyle accessory - an alternative to modern medicine pose being somehow more in touch with the earth (man). I feel the same way about this as I do about any faddish behaviour, whatever the new feng shui might be. If I lived in a more natural environment, perhaps I'd be more open to it, but all I see is a constant absorption of 'new things', a piecemeal bastardisation of other cultures chewed up to fill the great gaping maw of the bored middle classes.

Just as an example, a friend of a colleague has just done a high level course in reiki massage. She is now able to deliver healing massage by telephone... Me, I'd rather smack myself with high quality pharmaceuticals.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:08 / 02.05.02
Thiazi: I thought this was a bit harsh

Personally, I'm all for letting the natural foods crowd do whatever they want to their bodies.

It seemed you were being both dismissive of those who use these products and of the products themselves. Perhaps I misread you.
 
 
Rev. Wright
12:07 / 02.05.02
a copy of an e-mail that I sent to my friendly local newsreporter, to give him more details with regards this matter.

Here's some more info re: the directives on supplements and herbal remedies.

here

here

Here is a copy of the transcript of a letter sent by the BBC to a friend re: news coverage of this situation, or lack of it.

Dear Darios

Thank you for your e-mail. I apologise for the delay in our reply. We know our correspondents appreciate a quick response, and it is a matter of regret to us that you have had to wait for so long on this occasion.

I do appreciate your feelings regarding the issue of loss of rights to vitamins, all natural supplements, and natural health care. The choice of news stories to report in our programmes is frequently very difficult. Editorial staff always have more news reports than can be fitted into the time available. Their choice has to be selective and no matter how carefully such decisions are made, they are always aware that some people may disagree with them. Unlike newspapers, news programmes do not have the luxury of the inside pages or specialist sections that enable newspapers to carry a wide range of reports.

Please be assured that I have registered your comments and have made them available to our news department.

Thank you once again for contacting us.

Regards

Richard Carey
BBC Information



The strategic aims of "Codex Alimentarius"


1. The distribution of health information concerning vitamins, amino acids, minerals and other natural products for the prevention and treatment of diseases will be banned globally.

2. The sale of vitamins and other natural products which exceed the guidelines of this Codex commission (which are arbitrary and far too low) will be prohibited globally.

3. Countries that fail to apply these laws will be punished by international economic sanctions.

info

What is Codex?

info

Go here and select European Directive on dietary supplements

here

Codex Official site

codex site

Will

Although I admit to using rather emotive conspiracy tactics to kick start this thread, I would like to point out that many individuals make use of such supplements as St. Johns Wort, Garlic, Ginger, as well as other herbs, with great effect. The outlets that retail these items also provide a necessary service for individuals, like myself, with dietary allergies that require specific products, not commonly found in supermarkets and grocery stores. This legislation will in effect close these businesses and through doubt on the availability on products that are necessities to some.

I do hope that you check the links above and think deeply about the consequences that this will have on those who move outside your sphere of prejudice, sorry health practice.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:46 / 02.05.02
"...your sphere of prejudice, sorry, health practice. "

Tut, tut, will.

But what about monkey's point, that there could be dangerous - in other words effective - treatments out there which would benefit from being supervised closely. Regulation doesn't have to be a suppression of the industry, does it? Can't it also bring those treatments into the mainstream, or at least more so?

Of course, this doesn't really apply to herbs such as garlic and ginger. But they aren't really going to stop me buying garlic and ginger, are they? My cooking will suffer no end...
 
 
Rev. Wright
12:47 / 02.05.02
Hell, the desire to place more scrutiny on "alternative" treatments for cancer might have positive effects, like universalizing access to a viable treatment, like giving insurance credits for an herbal supplement

An Example

All of this is prior to the Codex.
 
 
The Monkey
12:48 / 02.05.02
You didn't read that second link very closely, did you?

Or the actual Codex?

Your "sum up" is complete bullshit. Get beyond page one of the Codex and you might notice that what it's suggesting are universal standards for the contents of food supplements...in other words, you can't just throw shit in a pill and sell it without responsibility for its effects. There is precisely no mention of banning anything; there is, however, a suggestion that the information published with supplements detail both the potential hazards and side effects of the active ingredient and the manner of action, if known in which the supplement functions. In other words, the producers have to stand by their products' efficacy.

Your emotive argumentation and massive subaltern blinders play into the hands of a different set of corporate wonks. Congratulations. TwinLabs will send you a bouquet.

And respectfully...no, not respectfully...my native sphere of predjudice lies in South Asian traditions of Ayurveda and Samkhya. So take your sphere of predjudice, which is fucking vast, and no more valid because you count yourself some sort of cultural underdog, and get stuffed.
 
 
Rev. Wright
13:36 / 02.05.02
Quote Official Codex Commission delegate Gene S. Oden

"You will have to obtain these vitamins from your pharmacist and they will have to be manufactured by a pharmaceutical company. In this way many of the freedoms you enjoy today will be taken away from you by a worldwide body (Codex)."

"The old philosophy, the old monopolistic cartel, is afraid that you might read something about your own condition, that you could do what the people (in the health testimonials) here on the stage have said, that you could look for an alternative, in order to stop stuffing the pockets of the biggest industry in the world, the health care system, with billions and trillions of dollars. This does not mean that these people themselves are malicious or harmful or bad, it is just the way they were trained."

Quote Codex Alimentarius delegate Josef Hasslberger

"The recommendation for a guideline on vitamin and mineral preparations goes back to the early 1990s, and as long ago as 1994 I urgently warned that the existing text - which has not been significantly changed since then, incidentally - would lead to the enormous potential public health benefits from vitamins being lost. My analysis on this can also be found on the Internet in German at http://www.laleva.cc/deutsch/codex_comments94.html.

What we urgently need, then, is the modernisation of nutritional science. Dieticians must be familiarised with the research results of the last three or four decades before they set out to lay down guidelines for products of which they are aware, at best, only by hearsay. Cardiovascular disease, for example, can largely be protected against by taking high doses of vitamins and other nutrients. The scientific work has been done - not least by Linus Pauling and Dr. Matthias Rath - and the results are available for scrutiny.

What should raise our suspicions is the following: why are nutritional scientists not interested in the potential for disease prevention and even cure of high-dose nutrients and, above all, why do they want to 'protect' the consumer from this scientific progress?"

Quote Professor Dag Viljen Poleszynski, Codex Alimentarius observer for Norway

"For years there has been veritable hysteria on the subject of cholesterol. In Norway the recommended intake is less than 300 mg cholesterol per day. In the Stone Age, however, they consumed around 500 mg without getting heart attacks.

There have been analyses of vitamin and mineral intakes comparing the Stone Age with modern times:

In the Stone Age the intakes of riboflavin, preventive vitamins, vitamin C, beta carotene etc., were very much higher than today’s recommended daily allowances (RDAs). The calculations indicate around 600 mg. Today’s RDA has now risen to 75 mg. The consumption of minerals has also changed significantly. Take sodium, for instance. In the Stone Age salt was never used in cooking, but today fairly large amounts are consumed. At the same time we consume about a third less potassium, so that the ratio of potassium to sodium has shifted quite dramatically.

Thus it can be determined that today we consume less minerals, vitamins and other nutrients while also being exposed to greater contamination. This means our bodies are subjected to greater strain. And we have to close this gap by taking vitamin and mineral supplements."

"The conclusion is clear. Given that we are genetically adapted to large quantities of vitamins, minerals and so on, and that the environment has become so polluted, we must simply take preventive dietary supplements until the environment recovers and agriculture has been reformed so that it meets its needs in the way it used to."
 
 
grant
19:11 / 02.05.02
Herbalism has been reconstructed by the medical "haves" of the West to represent the ontological vacuum left by the risks of modern medicine: in premise, herbalism is thought to also solve the same ailments as "manmade" medicine, only without the temporal inconvienience, the social discomfort of medical examination, or the potential for negative correllary effects.

I'm a little shy about the way you're constructing "the West" as using herbalism as the "noble savage" of medicine, just because some of the widest acceptance and most rigorous testing of herbal medicines comes out of Germany and Italy. Germans were decades ahead on the St. John's Wort thing.

I haven't read the codex, but was under the impression that there already was a scientific guideline in use for supplements: those which are "standardized" are (in theory) more quality assured than those which aren't. Be nice to see something even more cut-and-dried.

(I'm biased too - my sister's a TCM practitioner, and I'm pretty sure the herbs she prescribes are also subject to some stringent controls for freshness & efficacy.)

That said, I'd hate to see the FDA get involved in "approving" natural remedies just because they'd take decades or more to allow doctors to use something that's already been proven over centuries of use by trained practitioners.
 
 
Thjatsi
01:57 / 03.05.02
It seemed you were being both dismissive of those who use these products and of the products themselves. Perhaps I misread you.

No you were dead on, I am dismissive of both.

As far as herbal remedies go, I don't doubt that a few of them have a lot to offer. However, I would prefer to receive the beneficial results after an extensive process of testing and synthesis.

As far as the people who use these products, I respect the minority who have researched these medications extensively and choose to handle them with care. However, I consider the majority to be the typical "back to nature" crowd. And, it is my personal opinion that this group has caused enough trouble that I'm all for them experiencing the logical conclusion of their selective use of science.

However, I didn't see this as being harsh, which is what confused me.
 
 
Thjatsi
02:08 / 03.05.02
I forgot to mention that I am in favor of products being labeled by the government as beneficial, unsafe, neutral, or unknown. Of course, the system, if it was ever implemented, would be more detailed than that, but you get the basic idea.
 
 
The Monkey
04:52 / 03.05.02
grant - yes. and no. There's no quality control according to FDA regulations; only Dept of Health. And perhaps when I say the West you should read the US, where my personal experience with the bulk consumers of herbal medicine...and I've had jobs offers from groups like TwinLab (having the biochem and anthropolgy to chops to find new products for them)...is that they are not operating either from anaytical assessments of more informed herbal consumers, nor from informed understanding of the medical practice that generated the use of specific materials. The noble savage is riding strong in the popular consciousness.

My irritation is this: the use of plant- and animal-derived medicines in other cultures is part of a larger set of medical practice equal in sets of precedence to pharmacoepia guidelines. In other words, the taking of a particular herb for treatment is only a small fragment of a larger diagnostic and curative set of practices, and I am very suspicious of the corporate version of herbalism - food supplements - as pill-popping external to a diagnostic process or the larger set of prescibed medical practices which accompany the original medicinal use of a herb. Please note that I have not in any of my posts been dealing with small-scale practitioner of herbal medicine (as alternative to pharmacist), which is an entirely different kettle of fish from corporation-based self-medication.

"...something that's already been proven over centuries of use by trained practitioners."

You see, I'd put the emphasis on the phrase "trained practitioner" here...ie I would trust your sister to prescribe something and give enough information to ensure minimal risk and some positive effect for the consumer. Furthermore, in terms of efficacy of a herbal prescription...the standard of "centuries of use" does not necesarily validate the use of a particular product. Above and beyond this, consider that many of the stronger herbal medicines, if used without monitoring can have very deleterious side effects. Acutally, I'm beginning to wonder if part of the difference of opinion here lies that I am thinking in terms of curative (post-onset) treatments as opposed to preventative ones, where there has already been a winnowing process of the importation of relatively benign prophylactic practices.

Quite honestly, I would still like to see testing on herbal supplements of a more thorough variety than testimonial and correlative statistics, precisely because I want to open up their usage in medical practice.
 
 
The Monkey
05:25 / 03.05.02
will - I wanted to publicly apologize for flying off the handle with you. No excuses, no qualifications, just...Sorry.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:56 / 03.05.02
Just thought that you should give a more rounded and fleshed out view, Thiazi. I think its important to acknowledge that some people dismiss all alternative or even herbal treatments as invalid, and to distance ourselves from that rather extreme position.

That said, both you and monkey make some serious points about the adoption of such treatments.
 
 
grant
15:59 / 03.05.02
Actually, the NIH has been doing (over the past couple years) exactly what you're talking about, Monkey. They formed NCCAM a year or so ago, as a part of an overall investigation into alternative remedies.

(In part because of fear of interactions between herbal medicines and allopathic medicines. Heck, even *grapefruit juice* can potentiate some blood pressure drugs to the point where, well, people can die.)

There's more at the NCCAM home page.

Oh, and Thiazi, for a lot of people, penicillin is "unsafe." Ephedrine, the chemical in ma huang that, you know, has been killing all sorts of ill-informed herb guzzlers is "beneficial" for asthmatics - which is why it's in a lot of over-the-counter pills and inhalers. (if it's not near you, don't blame the pharmacology, blame the fact that it's a close precursor to crystal meth, and thus rather useful in illegal drug labs.)
For a diabetic, a Milky Way bar is medically "unsafe."
It's all in how it's used, how your body reacts, and what else is in your system. Context.
 
 
Thjatsi
16:34 / 03.05.02
How about a system of percentages then? For example, "This medication has a demonstrated safety level of 98.7%."
 
 
grant
17:36 / 03.05.02
It won't work that way. I mean, that'll keep something like arsenic or strychnine out of circulation (and there are plenty of plants more toxic than those chemicals), but when you're dealing with sensitivity and interactions with other substances, it can only be dealt with case-by-case. Of course some things (like aspirin, or willow bark, or however you prefer your salycilates) are safer than others... but I still wouldn't want to give aspirin to somebody undergoing surgery, or who has hemophilia. Neither would I want to give them large amounts of garlic, which thins blood in a similar way.
 
 
The Monkey
18:09 / 03.05.02
Thanks for the links, grant.
 
 
Rev. Wright
18:46 / 03.05.02
Codex Alimentarius - The Plan To Ban All Vitamins, Minerals, Herbs and Supplements

Vitamin Express Codex articles
 
 
grant
15:10 / 06.05.02
Weird - on my way out of work on Friday, NPR's "Talk of the Nation" was about alternative & complementary medicine, and had the NCCAM leader on, as well as a very, uh, longwinded skeptic from the National Council on Health Care Fraud. Might be worth listening to - very relevant to this discussion.
 
  
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