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Book Personals: Ulysses Ch 1-3

 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
23:21 / 30.04.02
Kick-off time! Safe to say, I think, that the whole thread is full of

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
!

And probably a fair bit of borrowed stuff from Robotwisdom's Ulysses bit.

CHAPTER ONE
TITLE: 1. Telemachus
SCENE: The Tower
HOUR: 8AM
ORGAN: none
ART: Theology
COLOUR: White, Gold
SYMBOL: Heir
TECHNIC: Narrative (young)


Impressions: the relationship between Buck Mulligan and Stephen Dedalus seems to have a bit of a Withnail And I overtone to it. Mulligan is showy, the med student who rides on bluster, Withnail-stylee. The comparison doesn't go much further, but there's some kind of unacknowledged depth there, I think. Some desire. Stephen, while watching Mulligan shave, seems to be jealous of Haines, the visitor to the tower. Already, the idea of nationalism has appeared. Stephen describes the maid's mirror as a symbol of Irish art - a cracked reflection of subservience. Mulligan seems to take this as something that can earn cash for their boozing, exhorting Stephen to make some cash out of his observations from their houseguest. I can't really tell if this is a "nationalism, yes!" moment, or an attempt to make Stephen appear as a ridiculous Serious Young Man; I feel pretty sure that it's the latter. Stephen's a rebel, at least in thought, but Mulligan's constant reductive namecalling (even if "Kinch, the knifeblade" is somewhat apt) tends to diminish this. We're meant to view Stephen as a bit of a shit, I think, given the fact that he considers mention of his mother's death as a slant to him. Unsurprising he's having bad dreams, I guess. I like the "I am the servant of two masters" line, too - showing how he's hamstrung between Empire and church: though it's the friction-causing Haines that suggests that Stephen has the strength to make something of himself - something more than a funds reservoir for Buck Mulligan, anyway.

The link with The Odyssey here is kinda cool, too; Telemachus, setting out to look for a father:

-What? Haines said, beginning to point at Stephen.
He himself?
Buck Mulligan slung his towel stolewise round his neck and, bending in loose laughter, said to Stephen's ear:
-O, shade of Kinch the elder! Japhet in search of a father!


The Hamlet references hook into this, too.

I like the way a quest is insinuated by the fact that Stephen arranges a meeting place with the others (The Ship) and is forced to leave his key behind; he can't go home.

I kinda want to live in a Martello tower, too...

To begin to unpack some of the schemata's references:

Art: - theology. Hmmm. It's breached, but not exactly ripped up.
Colour: milk and money, presumably.
Symbol: parents and the search for them is mentioned a couple of times.
Technic: This appears to be a young man's chapter. Quick-wits and a lack of detailed description - it's a narrative, and one that's constantly moving. Is this a "youthful" quality, rather than a studied stateliness?

More on the other two chapters as I read on. I started late, dammit. Apologies for the sparseness of the preceding. Bah.
 
 
Persephone
02:26 / 01.05.02
Hey, you're early... I'll be early then too, as I will not be able to post tomorrow morning.

I did just read the Odyssey, so hopefully that will help me a little. At least I know who Telemachus is, and Stephen Dedalus does seem very Telemachian to me --i.e., rather resentful and not doing much about it. But anyway, if Stephen Dedalus is Telemachus ...then someone else is Ulysses --Leopold Bloom, I guess-- am looking forward to when he enters the picture.

I am getting the feeling that this is going to be a very scratchy surface reading for me & that's okay. It's probably impossible to totally appreciate how the schemata works in these first chapters without knowing the whole?

Question: is Stephen Dedalus supporting Buck Mulligan? And if so, what is wrong with Stephen that he has to pay for everything and not get to keep the key to his own house? And this is all concealed under Buck's bonhomie, right? E.g., he asks for the key to keep him shirt flat? So it's sort of a dressed-up oppression? Also --sorry, dumb question-- Buck is Irish and Haines is English? Does Buck represent the church and Haines the (British) state?

[aside]Has anyone read Donna Tartt's The Secret History? Because now it seems plain that Bunny Corcoran is modelled quite after Buck Mulligan.[/aside]
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
04:26 / 01.05.02
[aside]Has anyone read Donna Tartt's The Secret History? Because now it seems plain that Bunny Corcoran is modelled quite after Buck Mulligan.[/aside]
I haven't even had a chance to dig into the book (brownnoser up there felt like reading ahead, eh?), but this has already got me interested. I love that book.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
21:45 / 02.05.02
Persephone:
Question: is Stephen Dedalus supporting Buck Mulligan?
Well, it appears so from this chapter. There's a bit in the second chapter, where Stephen's getting his pay from school, and he imagines his debts; there's a substantial amount owed to Buck Mulligan amongst it, as well as a couple of articles of clothing. It seems, the further on you go, that it's more two-way than it would appear. But, I agree, Mulligan appears to be running the show. Stephen is the only one paying rent, though, so he's bearing the brunt. AFAIK, Mulligan's Irish, and Haines is English - he's on leave from Oxford, I think.

I don't know if they can be seen as being representatives of church yet - though it's possible, I guess.

I think the schemata becomes clear the further on you go in the novel; it's not essential, I think, but it's certainly something that lets you go "ah!" when you figure out how the particular part of the plan's been exercised in each chapter. I like it, anyway, but maybe I'm just odd.

I'll write up some notes on the second/third chapters when I get a bit of a chance.

Is anyone else out there reading this? Hellooooo?
 
 
Trijhaos
23:03 / 02.05.02
I'm reading it. I got a bit confused in Chapter 3 when Stephen's at the beach.

Although I'm not too far in, I kind of feel sorry for Stephen. Here he is, the one who pays for the roof over Buck's head, and all Mulligan can do is make jokes about Stephen's mother and her death.
 
 
Persephone
00:00 / 03.05.02
You know what I'm going to do... I'm going to keep reading and make notes forward and backward, all criss-crossy. I am realizing that post-as-you-go is not my usual mode, but this is a good thing. My thing is really about finding patterns (there's my Asperger's coming out again) & I'm hoping that there will be patterns aplenty in this book, but there's something a little heartless about entering the book just to dismantle everything.

Treating the book strictly as narrative, a story, I was fine in ch. 1-2 & yup ch. 3 threw me too. According to my guide, the whole chapter is in Stephen's head & what he's doing is composing with words. I am going to go back to that idea later. I do think this scene would be brilliant for film, maybe it would help to analyze as an actor would...
 
 
Ariadne
04:46 / 03.05.02
I'm here too, trying to think of something sensible to say. Like Persephone, I got a bit lost in chapter 3 but if you read it slowly it's beautiful, if still confusing. Of course, that's only if you consider nosepicking beautiful.

I feel sorry and uncomfortable for Stephen, in that sort of relationship with an overbearing friend. Even if he seems a bit pathetic and takes himself too serously, he's bullied by Mulligan and patronised by Haines. I'm not sure how much these relationships matter, I'm probably reading too simplistically.

Got to get to work. Will think more on the tube.
 
 
Ariadne
04:47 / 03.05.02
Oh, and I've been trying to connect the schemata to what I've read but I think it'll make more sense to go back and do that once I've finished and can see it as a whole.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
07:28 / 03.05.02
Yes, I'm reading this- still have chapter 3 to go, though. Hopefully will have something to contribute tomorrow.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
15:22 / 05.05.02
Chapter 2.
Title: Nestor
Scene: The School
Hour: 10AM
Organ:
Art: History
Colour: Brown
Symbol: Horse
Technic: Catechism (Personal)


This chapter, for me, pretty much, cements the idea of Stephen-as-loser. It's not as impenetrable as the following chapter, but the dynamics of the preceding chapter are teased out a little, too - when Deasy goes off on his jag about being in debt, Stephen thinks of the amount that he owes to Mulligan. It's a longwinded way of saying "he hates his job, and wants to get the hell out" but there's a poignancy I find quite compelling in, say, the exchange between Stephen and the student who asks for help with his maths: Stephen's being very pitying of the kid, and these thoughts bring his dead mother to mind. I don't know - as a description of someone stuck in a job that's ok but not at all what they want to do, I think it's pretty good. The introduction in my copy of U suggests that this chapter's also notable because it's one of many examples of false history, mouthed by people in power: the idea that "woman bought Parnell low" is, apparently, a load of shit - though I'm not versed enough in history to say whether it's so.Schema bits: Scene and hour are self-explanatory, I guess. Colour? I guess the brown could refer to horses/cattle, which're mentioned so much - this'd also take care of the symbol, horse, too. And as for the technic? I think it comes from Deasey's attempts to convince Stephen that he (Deasy, not S) is correct about everything that they touch upon: ususry, immigration, foot-and-mouth; it's about failure of conversion. Stephen doesn't believe any of Deasy's bollocks, any more than his students are interested in his own attempts to pass on knowledge. It's interesting that he is made to take Deasy's theory on foot-and-mouth for publication - it's like he becomes the conveyor of knowledge that he doesn't particularly believe in.

Odyssey relation to title: Nestor is the person that Telemachus visits before setting off on his quest to find his father, though the visit provides nothing worthwhile. This is true of Stephen's visit to Deasy - only moreso, as there's money involved in the visit; it's not spontaneous, it's a bought ear. It's Polonius-like, too, continuing the constant references in the first chapter to Hamlet. Interesting, too, is the idea that Deasy gets Stephen to use his contacts in print to get the letter an airing. Experience is impotent, perhaps? Hm.


Chapter 3:
Title: Proteus
Scene: The Strand
Hour: 11AM
Organ:
Art: Philology
Colour: Green
Symbol: Tide
Technic: Monologue (Male)


This is one of the more dfficult chapters, I think. Not because it's particularly weird, but because it's so fluid and hard to fix meaning to. I'm not even entirely convinced that there is meaning to be found here; it's just the peregrinations of a dissatisfied, yet intelligent, mind.

I love the description of his ashplant cane as following him, calling his name, though - that not-quite-onomatopoeia is pretty cool, I think. This is something that comes out a bit later on in the novel, too, but I particularly like it here - the attempts to pin a sound to something; the ocean, say - is in stark contrast with the propulsive way the chapter seems to construct itself as it goes along - Dedalus' speechifyin', even if it is internal, reminds me of one of those Looney Tunes cartoons where a character keeps nailing plank on plank on plank, out, over a chasm endlessly. It's pleasing, but you're wondering when he's going to say "Ah, fuck it" and walk off for a beer, say. As it is, he just picks his nose, instead. I like the way that, Poe-like, he links fancy unto fancy. In terms of the solitary walker's habit of talking shite to oneself, this is about as true-to-life as it gets. (Well, to a point: I don't particularly wonder whether God was my father, y'unnerstan'...)

Schema bits: Scene and hour are self-explanatory. Art: Philology = a study of words. There's exploration, somewhat, of the way words sound, and the way they can link together, I guess; I think that's what's being explored here. Symbol: the tide suggests to me constant change - that's pretty much what's shown here in the flow of Stephen's thoughts. Mind-as-ocean, perhaps, or just as a river with changing levels? Unsure. Technic: pretty self-explanatory. Joyce's writing here echoes the way one's mind will skip from subject to subject based on what's seen at the time. It's an internal monologue, and aside from the rapid-skipping nature of it, I don't think there's any real writer's trickery involved in it. There's subject matter here that carries over from Portrait (I think - the "Naked women!" bit is foggily remembered...), in the form of reminiscence, while other times it appears that he's just riffing of varying things that he sees, or that pass through his mind. I don't know particularly where the "male" part comes in, other than it is the internal monologue of a male character. Joyce could be suggesting that it's him, as opposed to Molly Bloom's monologue of the final chapter, that is signed as "Monologue (female)"?

Odyssey reference: Proteus is the sea god, a shapeshifter. Presumably, this maps onto the way that Stephen's narrative shifts around, unceasingly.

Am still truckin' on with the reading - might well start up the next thread soon...
 
 
Persephone
17:17 / 05.05.02
I liked Chapter 2 quite a bit. I could totally understand the characters and the situation, and I thought Mr. Deasy was brilliant. Polonius is right on. Does Polonius come from Nestor? Not to the detriment of my reading, but as I was reading this chapter Haus's comment from the Iliad thread kept flashing: NESTOR IS SHIT. Though I didn't feel hostile to actual Nestor, Mr. Deasy was a definite figure of fun... and not-so-fun, as he gets into his anti-Semitic bits.

I just wonder, how fair is it to old men that they seem to always be portrayed this way? I think they get the short end of the stick because old men are the natural enemy of young men (or women); and when young men or women turn to writing, they portray old men as sort of objectively bad... but the problem is more relational, or I might mean structural. Youth are always angry at the old ("History is a nightmare from which I am trying to wake"); but youth are also parasites on the old & they don't see themselves this way or write themselves this way.

Am completely exhausted. Apologies for not making much sense.

I've been going forward with my reading... and going backward over Chapter 3 again, too. Will be able to join you in the next thread, though as I said I definitely plan to revisit the previous threads as patterns emerge.
 
 
Cavatina
07:29 / 06.05.02
"Odyssey reference: Proteus is the sea god, a shapeshifter. Presumably, this maps onto the way that Stephen's narrative shifts around, unceasingly. "

There could also be a parallel with the bit about Menelaus obtaining valuable information about Odysseus from Proteus after wrestling with and managing to hold onto the sea god as he takes on the shapes of animals and of fire and water. Proteus is allegorised here as Nature - which may give up answers to Stephen's puzzles about artistry if only 'held firmly' and scrutinised so that its 'signatures' can be read. ('Signatures of all things I am here to read.')
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:27 / 07.05.02
Funny - I assumed that Buck Mulligan has some sort of private means (perhaps something to do with his aunt?), and battens on Stephen when he runs out - making Stephen more dependant on him, because then Stephen has to borrow from him (it's about £9 in ch. 2, isn't it?) to make ends meet.

The stuff about Stephen's epigrams being suitable for Haines, I think, is Milligan (and later Haines himself) poking fun at Stephen because he is a bit po-faced, and piques himself on his wit - even when there are only schoolboys there to hear it. Perhaps this has something to do with Stephen's failure to pray at his mother's deathbed - he's a young man of principles and sometimes that leads him to make obscure decisions?

IIRC - Parnell was brought low because of a sexual scandal - he was named as the co-respondent in a divorce case; so no doubt an old codger like Deasy would indeed think that evil temptress woman had indeed brought him low, whereas of course it was entirely Parnell's own fault that he was involved.
 
 
Persephone
21:10 / 07.05.02
I think I am getting the Mulligan/Dedalus relationship now.

Also I have thrown myself again on the bier of Chapter 3 and have failed again to ignite. That's okay, I guess. (I'm a bit farther along in the book & I do have warmer feelings for Leopold Bloom.)

So I guess I'm moving on.

Weren't there people who love this book who were going to participate in this discussion? It would be interesting to hear from some of them. I don't hate this book, but I am distinctly not feeling swept off my feet & I'd be interested to hear from someone who does get that experience from this book. What is it that draws you in? Is it the language itself? Is it the puzzle aspect, the Odyssey bits and so forth? Is it actually this character of Stephen Dedalus?
 
 
Ariadne
06:40 / 08.05.02
Agreed, Persephone. I'm a bit further on too, and I like Bloom and yet ... I'm having to make myself read it. Sometimes I enjoy the language and the pace, but often my mind drifts off. I'd like some inspiration or insight from someone who knows and loves it.
 
 
Cavatina
08:45 / 08.05.02
My memories of wrestling with this tome years ago are not particularly happy ones and I didn't come to love it; so I've been reluctant to pick it up again and commit to it. But one of the problems in reading it *is* to grasp the whole and not get bogged down in the plethora of details. So, Persephone, I think your strategy of taking a general gist and simply pushing on at this point is the way to go. For example, much of Ulysses/Stephen's interior monologue in 'Proteus' - as he walks on the beach at Sandymount for an hour - displays his (formidable) knowledge and capacity for learning, drinking in of experience, meditations on the everchanging, interminable cycles/tides of material world etc., and his fears regarding what might become a failure to create anything of lasting value.

Joyce's own comments are helpful, but the work is really a thinly covered fictional autobiography - a day in the life of a slightly older Stephen than in Portrait . The fictional Leopold Bloom is an ironic self-portrait of the artist as middle-aged man, husband and father, though Molly is apparently modelled after Nora, Joyce's wife, in some respects, and other characters are more closely based on real people.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
21:27 / 09.05.02
i haven't been in this discussion yet cuz i've had to move to a new house in the past 2 weeks, but as one of the people who loves this book i had to respond to persephone. i don't care *so* much for the character of stephen, really, though i think a lot of us can identify with the starving artist archetype. i'll try to spit up about the core things that make me love this book so much.

his passionate love for ireland as an ideal but hatred for it as a realization are a very powerful combination of emotions, ones that i connect to colonial/postcolonial literature in general.

at the end of portrait, he was off to "create in the smithy of my soul" etc etc -- we felt perhaps that he would finally become dedalus and fly away on his own wings. but then the "sequel" finds that he was still icarus -- crashed right back down, and on the sea to boot. the tower stephen begins in here reminds me of the tower in which dedelus was imprisoned before he made the wings and escaped. (in the real world, btw, stephen did live in this tower. the mulligan fellow was trying to set up a sort of artist colony based in the old towers. joyce was miserable there and left very soon after. the incident with the gun going off fueled his decision to split. we might even call that the "inciting incident" of his subplot in ulysseus).

in this first chapter, he has to listen to this english motherfucker go on and on to him about the original irish language, when stephen himself understands that in order to be the consumate irish poet he has to forge his own new language out of english itself. (why? it's definately worth thinking about why joyce approaches language as he does, from an artistic and political point of view) sort of like a black kid from the projects working his way through yale and constantly having to hear about the glories of ghetto speak from the rich white kids.

this conflict and frustrated desire in stephen is expressed through the language of the book itself, as if it's a postcard to himself from the future. that's one of the concepts that thrills me most about the book.

aside from the language, it is concepts that fuels my endless love for ulysseus. when i read the book, i feel like i am communicating with an alien entity --some kind of language-based consciousness that resides in the pages. reminds me a bit of Flex Mentallo, really, as if there are living creatures escaped into the "fictional" reality of ulysseus. as the narrative progresses, you can see it become self-aware -- the language starts to gather intelligence and react to its own existence. look for these moments as we go, i'll try to point them out if no one else does. ulysseus is the only book i know that is truly "self-aware"; generally we refer to authors who are self-aware, but in the case of this book it is a living thing aware of its role as a book.

it's this aspect of the book that keeps me with it over and over again. it reminds me of tarot cards; i constantly look through my thoth deck trolling not for divination but for information about myth and religion; tarot cards are the original hypertext encyclopedia, and written without words. the text of ulysseus functions the same way -- any page can take you on a number of different paths through history and language and the human condition. like a living thing, it has spread exponentially through its fertile environment -- which might well be the uncreated conscious of the race -- in the form of commentary and criticism. this book fucks minds of gives birth to more books. (yes, there's criticism about anything, but work with me here on the metaphor).

if the story / characters aren't rocking hard enough for you, try to see if you can get this feeling that you are not reading, you are communicating. the characters themselves might not be aware of you but the book is, so try to enjoy the time you have together...
 
 
Persephone
16:46 / 10.05.02
Myst, this was utterly worth the wait. It's particularly interesting to me because I'm a reader of the I-Ching, and I feel that book also has a consciousness, self-consciousness, and communicates with me. So I think I have a context for understanding how you read Ulys. You also are reminding me of the old caretaker from Wilkie Collins's The Moonstone, only his book is Robinson Crusoe. It is quite funny & yet also weirdly apropos to what we are talking about, but he basically uses Crusoe as an oracle. (I'm at work, so I can't give you the relevant quotes.) And all of this is similar to how some people randomly open the Bible for advice. One may well read The Odyssey in this way, too...

I mean, wow, this could go off in a hundred directions now. Now I definitely feel that this reading for me is just for scratching the surface, and for the book also to lightly scratch my brain. I'm not going to worry about getting it all immediately.

Please stay with us while we read, okay?
 
 
Mystery Gypt
20:18 / 10.05.02
ooh, glad that got you excited, persephone. your interest in the i-ching is exactly the kind of thing i'm talking about here! the book-oracle method you are referencing was called sortes by the ancient romans -- originally, they used virgils' Aeneid (the roman odyssey, so to speak) for this; the oracle would flip through the text and put her finger on a line, and they would interpret the future from that.

we can talk about this more when we get there, but in chapter 10 bloom does exactly this action in a bookshop when he tries to decide what erotic novel to buy his wife, flipping through and reading random lines. again with joyce's ironic/classical archetype reconfiguring. ulysses would make a great vessel for oracular interpretation... i'd love to come up with a Magical/Critical method for reading this thing. in fact, it was my first read of ulysses that got me interested in cabala, cuz i was searching for an example of literary criticism that used magic. maybe we should "invite" some of the folks from the magic forum to toss in some ideas to these threads.

i keep pushing the Annotations book, if you don't have it yet persephone i think you'd love it -- it turns the book into hypertext, in a sense... you can go into the index and look up "masonry" "hermes tristmegistros" "theosophy" etc and start to see how all these informational threads weave through the book. to force another silly metaphor, you could say ulysses is a computer and the Annotations is one of the available softwares that makes it do things for you.
 
 
Ariadne
20:58 / 10.05.02
Mystert Gypt, this is great. Please stay around cause this is exactly what I need to keep going and appreciate it.

I'll look out for the annotations book - is it hugely expensive? I seem to remember that it was.
 
  
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